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Old 11-17-2014, 10:07 AM   #21
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You may be correct. They have changed the rules a number of times over the years although I don't believe a winless driver has ever won the championship "as it almost happened this year". For myself, I think I would be "okay" with the new chase format if they would simply add a provision that to be in contention for the championship race, you must have at least one win for the season. I doubt that any system will please everyone, but to me, winning a race during the season should be a prerequisite to becoming the champion. (past, present or future formats)
I actually sort of like the elimination format and the drama that it adds. The only change I would make is to make the championship a series of say, 3 races rather than a single race. That said, it was interesting that all four contenders were in the top ten for most of the day yesterday until Logano's car fell of the jack in the late going.

I'm indifferent as to whether one should have to win a race during the season in order to either make the chase or win a championship.

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Whoa, whoa, slow down there. Who said racing was a "sport?" It's a "sport" in the same way poker is a "sport" (in that it requires absolutely no athletic ability whatsoever, but for some reason is still broadcast on ESPN).
And yes, auto racing is a sport that requires significant hand-eye coordination, reflexes and stamina. If auto racing isn't a sport, then golf, sailboat racing and many other recognized sports would be in question too. I see a fair amount of overweight baseball players but no overweight Nascar drivers that come to mind right away.
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Old 11-17-2014, 10:31 AM   #22
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Whoa, whoa, slow down there. Who said racing was a "sport?" It's a "sport" in the same way poker is a "sport" (in that it requires absolutely no athletic ability whatsoever, but for some reason is still broadcast on ESPN).
Maybe you are right- At least Donavan McNabb seems to agree with you.

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Old 11-17-2014, 10:37 AM   #23
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I see a fair amount of overweight baseball players but no overweight Nascar drivers that come to mind right away.
Not when they drive around for 3 to 4 hours at speeds of up to 200+ MPH in a full fire-suit with the car interiors that can reach 140 degrees.
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Old 11-17-2014, 02:31 PM   #24
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Anyone notice the split screen commercial/race thing? DW and I counted 6 1/2 minutes continuous commercials at one point, and five or six of the twelve mid-race action events were not shown live, because of commercials.
We americans are a patient sort. How like sheep we are, paying Comcast or DirecTV $1,000.00 year to watch commercials.
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Old 11-17-2014, 11:52 PM   #25
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Anyone notice the split screen commercial/race thing? DW and I counted 6 1/2 minutes continuous commercials at one point, and five or six of the twelve mid-race action events were not shown live, because of commercials.
We americans are a patient sort. How like sheep we are, paying Comcast or DirecTV $1,000.00 year to watch commercials.
Yes I noticed the split screen commercials too. With the exceptions of football games and racing (which I like to watch live), the DW and I record just about everything else on the DVR so we can watch it when we like and zip thru the commercials.
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Old 11-18-2014, 07:13 AM   #26
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I frequently watch recorded football games and fast forward through the huddles (my remote has 30 seconds forward and 10 seconds back buttons). I can watch every play of a whole game in less than have the time. For other games I'm really interested in I'll watch the whole game but fast forward through the commericals.

The split screen commercials have been done in Nascar for a couple years not IIRC.
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Old 11-18-2014, 07:45 AM   #27
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auto racing is a sport that requires significant hand-eye coordination
No it doesn't - that's not what "hand-eye coordination" means. Their hands never leave the steering wheel (except I suppose to shift), and the steering wheel isn't moving; it's always right in front of them. There's no "hand-eye coordination" at play here, they're just turning a wheel on which they have a continuous grip.

"Hand-eye coordination" is stuff like catching an object as it's being tossed at you, or being able to bring two interlocking pieces together in front of you without misjudging the depth. Not turning a wheel that never leaves your hand.

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reflexes and stamina.
Reflexes, sure, but stamina, debateable. Poker players require a lot of "stamina" too, but that doesn't make it a sport.

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If auto racing isn't a sport, then golf, sailboat racing and many other recognized sports would be in question too.
Golf, ironically, actually does require significant "hand-eye coordination," with respect to judging the length of the club and being able to hit the ball square on the face while swinging the club. It also requires physical strength to achieve distance with the ball, and fine motor control while putting.

I suppose sailboat racing is arguable, but I can see a case being made for it being a sport, as it requires strength, agility, and skill, moving about the boat, making adjustments, pulling lines, raising/lowering sails, etc. They're not just buckled in steering the thing, like in NASCAR.

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I see a fair amount of overweight baseball players but no overweight Nascar drivers that come to mind right away.
First off, you'll get no argument from me about baseball not being a sport. It's the only sport I can think of where the players are openly eating DURING THE GAME. Gum, chewing tobacco, peanuts, while they're on the field! You ever see Larry Bird stop at center court and take a bite of a hoagie? The game has about 9 minutes of actual action in a 3 hour "game." Any "sport" where they can play 160+ games a season is not a real sport. Any sport where, after a batter gets on base, they can swap him out for a faster runner, is not a real "sport." If Kobe steals the ball from an opposing player, can they call a timeout and swap him out with Michael Jordan because Jordan's better at dunking?

But I digress.

Are NASCAR drivers skinny because it's such a gruelling "sport," or because lighter cars go faster and every ounce counts when the cars are all exactly the same, so drivers are required to be as skinny as possible? Hmm.. food for thought. But not really, because that's the reason.

Just because it's hot doesn't make it a sport. They sit there and sweat for two hours while turning left and trying not to crash. It's not a sport. It may be entertaining, it may be competitive (so is chess), but it's not a sport.
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Old 11-18-2014, 08:07 AM   #28
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..."Hand-eye coordination" is stuff like ... being able to bring two interlocking pieces together in front of you without misjudging the depth. ...
I guess we'll just need to agree to disagree on whether or not auto racing is a sport.

It seems to me that judging how much or how little to turn the steering wheel to avoid a crash or recover from losing traction at 180-200 mph is hand-eye coordination - the hands need to judge how much or little to respond to what the eyes are seeing.

There is also a lot of judgement as to how much to get on the brakes in each corner and when to jump on the throttle, on some tracks downshifting, all of which require responding to what the eyes are seeing.

IMO it takes stamina to continue to function at a high level for long periods of time in a very hot environment. If the car is not spot on the driver is fighting the car which is physically demanding over long periods of time. Also, Nascar runs at least two road courses each season and those are more physically demanding than ovals.

I golf (a lot) and do consider it a sport but if golf is a sport then i would think that auto racing is as well. However, distance in golf has relatively little to do with strength and much more to do with tempo and solid contact.
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Old 11-18-2014, 09:30 AM   #29
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I guess we'll just need to agree to disagree on whether or not auto racing is a sport.

It seems to me that judging how much or how little to turn the steering wheel to avoid a crash or recover from losing traction at 180-200 mph is hand-eye coordination - the hands need to judge how much or little to respond to what the eyes are seeing.

There is also a lot of judgement as to how much to get on the brakes in each corner and when to jump on the throttle, on some tracks downshifting, all of which require responding to what the eyes are seeing.

IMO it takes stamina to continue to function at a high level for long periods of time in a very hot environment. If the car is not spot on the driver is fighting the car which is physically demanding over long periods of time. Also, Nascar runs at least two road courses each season and those are more physically demanding than ovals.

I golf (a lot) and do consider it a sport but if golf is a sport then i would think that auto racing is as well. However, distance in golf has relatively little to do with strength and much more to do with tempo and solid contact.
In a face to face debate on this topic, I wonder what some of the professional drivers (like maybe Brad Keselowski or Tony Stewart) would say or do to prove they are athletes? I'd volunteer to meet with the driver of car #10 to debate the topic.
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Old 11-18-2014, 10:11 AM   #30
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Whoa, whoa, slow down there. Who said racing was a "sport?" It's a "sport" in the same way poker is a "sport" (in that it requires absolutely no athletic ability whatsoever, but for some reason is still broadcast on ESPN).

Others have responded.... and yes... it is a sport....


.. but I will ask... what do YOU define as a sport
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Old 11-18-2014, 10:25 AM   #31
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Are NASCAR drivers skinny because it's such a gruelling "sport," or because lighter cars go faster and every ounce counts when the cars are all exactly the same, so drivers are required to be as skinny as possible? Hmm.. food for thought. But not really, because that's the reason.

Just because it's hot doesn't make it a sport. They sit there and sweat for two hours while turning left and trying not to crash. It's not a sport. It may be entertaining, it may be competitive (so is chess), but it's not a sport.

You show how little you know.... all cars have to have the same weight... which includes the driver... being skinny does not make your car go faster...

I cannot find anything to back this up, but I was told that the military academy considered chess as a physical activity (maybe someone who was there can chime in... ).... you would be surprised how much competitive chess can take out of you during a long match...


Also, look at the #1 definition....
1. an athletic activity requiring skill or physical prowess and often of a competitive nature, as racing, baseball, tennis, golf, bowling, wrestling, boxing, hunting, fishing, etc.
Jut to let you know... I also bowl.... and I see LOTS of fat people who bowl.... and how much 'sport' is there in fishing....
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Old 11-18-2014, 10:28 AM   #32
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No discussion of "what constitutes a sport" is complete without mentioning Lingerie Football
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Old 11-18-2014, 12:15 PM   #33
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You show how little you know.... all cars have to have the same weight... which includes the driver... being skinny does not make your car go faster...
Actually I know more than you assume. I know that in fact the cars do not have to all have the same weight. They all have to have the same MINIMUM weight. They are allowed to weigh more than the minimum. Of course, there is no advantage to doing so, only disadvantage, so none of them deliberately make their cars heavier. However, if the car (including the weight of the driver and the fuel) is less than the minimum, then they must add ballast to the car to bring it up to the minimum weight. The trick is that they have options about WHERE they add the ballast, so that they can manipulate the handling characteristics of the car by adding more weight to the front or back. The less the driver weighs, the more ballast they can add. However, if their driver is fat, and the total weight (including said fat driver) is already above the minimum, then they lose the option of using ballast to manipulate the car's handling characteristic. Well, I guess more accurately, they can still add ballast if they want, but now their car will weigh more than all of the competition, and they'll not be competitive.

So it's to a team's advantage to hire a skinny driver.
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Old 11-18-2014, 01:24 PM   #34
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Nascar Drivers Physical conditioning.
Nascar - the Drivers Physical Conditioning

A long time ago, I had a chance to be a passenger in a car at Daytona... the speed was only 160 but enough for me... the record is about 210mph. G forces are substantial at lower speeds, and despite a smooth track, not like riding on a cloud. Two to three continuous hours at race speeds with continuous mental and physical pressure, could arguably be as hard or harder than most sports, where short bursts of strength, speed, and mental acuity are more the rule.
If being an athlete is measured by lifting strength, maybe Nascar Drivers won't win, and if the continuous muscle use of a long distance runner defines an athlete, then most Nascar drivers might not measure up... but put it all together with mental stress, a three hour run, and G forces enough to break ribs... and it's hard to find a tougher challenge.

Of course, those who have experienced Nascar racing on their Play Station, may have a different perspective. ...

'Nuff said... now, What channel is Lingerie Football on?
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Old 11-18-2014, 01:39 PM   #35
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... I'd volunteer to meet with the driver of car #10 to debate the topic.
Actually, I would volunteer to spend the night debating it.
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Old 11-18-2014, 01:41 PM   #36
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No discussion of "what constitutes a sport" is complete without mentioning Lingerie Football
WTH... you can't introduce a topic like that without a picture...
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