Our Daughter

[Cato]

Out daughter is a successful 30yr old and running an independent IT consulting business after immigrating to Canada 2 years ago. She is gay and came out of the closet about 6 years ago - it wasn't a total surprise to me - there were several episodes which did'nt really make any sense at school and afterwards at university, and I remember saying to DW on several occasion that I wonder whether she is gay.

My wife took it very badly, and still has'nt entirely accepted the fact that she is gay, but things sort of meandered along without any confrontations and nothing was said that could offend. In the interim my daughter met a lovely person, and I am happy that she had found somebody to share her life with.

However, this year my daughter phoned and announced that they would like to get married next year and things suddenly went from bad to terrible - my daughter was talking about children (probably artificial insemination from a donor) and I do not know what was said but things have reached an icy silence between my daughter and my wife - my wife is a committed roman catholic and her faith is important to her and I would not like to deprive her of it.

I had hoped that over time that DW would become more comfortable with the idea but that has not happened. I have no problem in supporting my daughter and although I would not have chosen a LGBT lifestyle for her given the obstacles involved, I'm fully supportive.

My question is simple - and I do not want to get into the pro's and con's of the LBGT lifestyle - how do I mend the rift between my daughter and my wife - I could strongarm it, but that would not be my first choice and I would like her to contine to hold on her faith but be more broadminded and less judgemental. O by the way, I'm also RC , but would be considered a lapsed church member.

 

[chris2008]

I would try to find some more liberal but catholic priests (yes, there are some) and encourage DW to read about their positions, maybe even to contact and discuss with those.
DW might fear that she would have to give up all of her religious believes if she accepts DD as she is.
Thumbs up for supporting your Daughter.

 

[braumeister]

My guess is that you're probably out of luck trying to change DW's attitude from the outside -- it will have to change from within her.
Just be the bridge between the two of them by showing that you care equally about them both. That's as much as you can do, IMHO.

 

[obgyn65]

+1.

Thumbs up for supporting your Daughter.

 

[Dancer373]

I think it's wonderful that you're supporting your daughter even though it puts you in an uncomfortable position. It probably threatens everything your DW has been brought up to believe but hopefully, with time, she will see your daughter happy and realized that's what we all hope for with our children. We all hope to see our children do well, be happy and find someone to love and share their life with. With time, and grandchildren hopefully she'll see this and accept this. A progressive, liberal priest might be able to help with the transition in accepting this lifestyle. So many people live without someone to love.....I wish your family well~~~

 

[rescueme]

This is common where religious upbringing/beliefs conflict with secular life.

DW/I were brought up within strict RC teachings/customs. DW (unlike me) remains strongly (as the OP's DW does) within the teachings of the church, as her family does and is reinforced by their practices.

I on the other hand as a non-practicing partner (I've seen too much in life to accept any "true religion") have more of a "live your life as you wish, as long as it doesn’t harm me, my family, or society in general" - be it religion or in any other manner.

I doubt you will ever get any complete acceptance by any party. To do so would reject the religious/personal belief/lifestyle of the other. All you can do is let each set a level of acceptance - if any.

Just don't fall into the trap of taking sides of one over the other nor try to "solve" their differences. Take the stand that you are not the "tie-breaker".

More importantly, be willing and able to accept each on their own merits.

Just my $.02...

 

[donheff]

I would try to find some more liberal but catholic priests (yes, there are some) and encourage DW to read about their positions, maybe even to contact and discuss with those.
DW might fear that she would have to give up all of her religious believes if she accepts DD as she is.
Thumbs up for supporting your Daughter.

++ on both points. Nearby on Capitol Hill there was a long term priest at a local parish who offered a weekly mass that was heavily attended by the Catholic gay community. I'm not sure if he is still around but I know there are many like him. If you have Jesuit communities nearby you could probably find sympathetic priests who would be willing to talk with your wife if she is interested. If DW doesn't come around I hope you will continue to give unconditional support to your daughter.

 

[sheehs1]

Oh wow ...this is a tough one Cato. While I know your wife has had several years to adjust to the "gay" status and keeping in mind am unsure how much is driven by the religious aspect...your wife has been grieving and may always continue to do so to some extent. I would not underestimate or judge the extent of this grieving process for your wife. Does she go to counseling on this issue at all? Do you go as a couple?
If your wife has been silently angry about the situation for a long time then there might also be depression.
From my own perspective and trying to put myself in your wife's shoes, when a woman has a daughter she has hopes and dreams that she carries with her while raising that daughter. A bond...very similar to that of a man and his son. How would you handle it if you had a son...that came to you and announced he was gay? I think most would try to absorb, digest, grieve...etc. to get to acceptance. But...deep down...I'm not sure what happens. Does one, carve away a piece of ones heart...locking it away forever? I think there could always be sadness associated with..."what could have been" that one continues to have to deal with while trying or "pretending" it doesn't matter...while trying to be the bigger person to accept it. But does one ever really accept it?? Yes perhaps at a certain level...but one can not deny that there are lost hopes and dreams here.
Your daughter has chosen to move in a direction that is so very foreign to your wife. That is her right...but it does not come without repercussions to both of you perhaps in very different ways.
All of that said....I think you have to let your wife...come to it herself without strong arming her into it. With any luck she will get to the point....where fully accepting it and having her daughter and perhaps child in her life...is better than not having her.
Having an objective party to talk to could help tremendously. Your wife needs you...to be with her on this and help her thru it. She probably already senses...another change in the dynamics ...and that you are not where she is on the issue...more aligned with your daughter. That doesn't help her. She may feel like "odd man out".
Forgive me if I've made assumptions or covered ground that doesn't apply. But just the fact that you have said "you could strong arm" her..makes me think ...there is a division between you and your wife...a loss of connection if you will. Fix that. Your daughter might also be able to take some steps...as you make no mention of her efforts with your wife. Both you and your daughter may need to take some steps to bring your wife gently back into the fold so to speak.
Good luck to all of you.

 

[donheff]

Your daughter has chosen to move in a direction that is so very foreign to your wife. That is her right...but it does not come without repercussions to both of you perhaps in very different ways.

I think this thinking is the problem not the solution. The daughter is not making a choice, her mother is. Did Mom choose to be straight? Did Cato?

Mom needs counseling but she will probably never accept her daughter if she believes she has chosen a wrong direction?

 

[kaudrey]

I think this thinking is the problem not the solution. The daughter is not making a choice, her mother is. Did Mom choose to be straight? Did Cato?

Mom needs counseling but she will probably never accept her daughter if she believes she has chosen a wrong direction?

+1

I sympathize, Cato. I have many gay friends, and have heard their stories of their families learning about their orientation. They run the gamut from exile to complete acceptance, but overall, over time, most of their parents/relatives learn to accept that they are gay, even if they don't always exactly "embrace" the idea. On the other hand, many have wonderfully supportive parents/families, who are fully a part of their lives.

Your wife could benefit from counseling that helps her see that being gay is not a choice, just as being straight is not a choice. A good counselor could help her through the issues, without demeening her religious beliefs. I have gay friends who are catholic and go to church - it has taken time, but they have been able to hold on to their faith despite the conflicts their orientation presents within the religion.

My mother is very RC also, so I know it isn't easy. One of the hardest things I ever had to do was tell my mother I was getting a divorce. But she surprised me, and was much more supportive during that time than I thought she would be.

I wish you all the best.

 

[Sarah in SC]

I, too, offer a strong thumbs up for your position. I agree that finding out more about the theologians within the church that do offer guidance that is more forgiving would be a good start and that you could share with your wife in a non-threatening, informational way. But you cannot force it, and I do hope that the arrival of grandchildren will also soften her stance from within, as others noted.
You have my best wishes and hopes for the stalemate to end well. And thank you for your support of her; you cannot imagine how important it is for a girl to have the backing of her father, no matter what her age.

 

[mystang52]

Sometimes a behavioral approach will change the mental aspect. A good first step would hopefully be getting DW to accompany you to daughter's wedding. She doesn't have to "endorse" the wedding, just attend and be civil.
Similarly, if/when grandchildren come along make sure you and DW do the "usual" grandparent things.
As a new grandparent, I can attest to the phenomenal feelings it generates. Perhaps you can gently remind DW you both need to maintain relationship with your daughter; doing so does not "violate" any religious beliefs nor does it endorse daughter's sexual preference. And a great fringe benfit is having a true grandparent relationship.

 

[brewer12345]

Show your DW all those pics of the current pope cavorting around in red Prada slippers with his beefcake personal assistant and ask her if the Church is being honest about homosexuality.

Seriously, I would look into a Jesuit (S.J.) or Franciscan (O.F.M.) priest as a counselor. They both tend to be compassionate and stupefyingly overeducated as well as steeped in Church doctrine.

 

[Nemo2]

Mom needs counseling but she will probably never accept her daughter if she believes she has chosen a wrong direction?

I have often said, (I have a tendency to say things often ), that, even in my advanced years, I can spot an attractive young woman from three blocks away, but the only time I notice another male is if I happen to bump into him 'cause I'm not looking where I'm going.

I could never 'choose' to become gay and I doubt that any gay person could 'choose' to become straight......although some might, (temporarily), pretend to in order to comply with societal pressure.

 

[PaddyMac]

I think counseling for your wife is a good idea so that she understands that no one chooses to be gay.

But it comes down to one thing: Does your wife prefer to honor her faith or honor her own flesh and blood. That she is even debating this is a shame.

Frankly, being Irish and seeing the results of decades of child abuse in Ireland and a cover up by the Vatican (which is still ongoing today), I can't understand why your wife is so adamant that the RC church knows right from wrong at all on any topic. The Vatican was involved in the systematic rape and torture of little children. Even the Irish Taoiseach (prime minister) is calling for a new law that would make it illegal for priests that hear of child abuse in a confessional to keep silent. That's how bad it's gotten after the most recent Cloyne Report:
Taoiseach Enda Kenny in unprecedented attack on Vatican - YouTube

Your child's happiness is more important than supporting that bunch of criminals.

 

[sheehs1]

I think this thinking is the problem not the solution. The daughter is not making a choice, her mother is. Did Mom choose to be straight? Did Cato?

Mom needs counseling but she will probably never accept her daughter if she believes she has chosen a wrong direction?

The use of the word "chosen" in my post was not meant in the way it was interpreted. I "chose" my husband did I not? We all "choose" our spouses.
The daughter has chosen her life long partner. That's all that was meant. What other word would you have had me choose given the context of what was intended.? No one these days, especially me....would ever intimate the daughter had a choice as to sexual preference. Of all the sentences in my thread...that's the one you chose to take issue with- given the context of the entire post? Please allow me more credit than that.

 

[bizlady]

Our best friends are strong Catholics, and their son is gay. They struggled for a bit too, but now are both accepting of his lifestyle.

Gently and lovingly remind your wife that while she neither has to approve or agree with her daughters lifestyle, she can choose whethr to be a part of her daughters life still.

 

[tangomonster]

Perhaps your wife (and you) can get some help from PFLAG (Parents and Friends of Lesbians and Gays):

PFLAG: Parents, Families, & Friends of Lesbians and Gays

They have some stuff online about dealing with a loved ones' coming out and also have local chapters all over.

Good luck! I'm not a parent and nor RC, so I can't understand at all your wife's thinking/behavior. I thought that parents unconditionally accept/love their kids, but it looks like the religious aspect overrides that. On the other hand, I never understand how parents accept/love a child who commits a heinous crime....

 

[MuirWannabe]

I think the approach you currently are taking is about all you can do. You should respect your wifes beliefs and since your daughter is an adult now your primary concern remains your relationship with your wife IMO.

I seriously doubt that just because your wife has issues with her lifestyle she has ceased to care for her. There is a difference between caring about someone and sanctioning something that goes against ones belief system.

I disagree that the wife needs counseling and find that recommendation ironic. Maybe over time your example can help bring all sides together in a cooler way. Time has a way of doing this.

Good luck to you and your family.

 

[Texas Proud]

This is a tough one as most have said.... and if it were me I would not wade into the deep end as I think the DW anger would be directed at me....


This was a different time and a different situation... but when I was young my sister was living with a guy... (yes, it happens)... my dad said 'he is not allowed in our house'... his thoughts were that you did not live together... you got married... and why are you not marrying my daughter...

After two years of my sister not coming to family gatherings my mom told my dad 'you need to get over it or you will never see your daughter again'... reluctantly my dad agreed that the 'rat fink' could come for Christmas... everything was good an my dad did not make the guy feel uncomfortable... he never changed his opinion of the matter, but was able to live with it so he could see his daughter...

So, you need to ask your wife.... are you willing to cut off your daughter for the rest of your life And cut off seeing any grandkids BTW, are you not supposed to be tolerant of others as a RC


To end my story on my sister.... after 5 or 7 years (can not remember) she broke up with the guy... they never married... we then find out that it was HER decision to not get married.... he did NOT want to move in with her without being married... but she refused to get married and he finally decided that he would rather live with her than without.... it was funny that he had the same views as my father....

 

[harley]

It really all comes down to what I consider the hardest stricture in the Bible - judge not, lest ye be judged. Your wife should be able to understand that any possible consequences of your daughter's lifestyle is going to be between the daughter and God. She can love and accept her daughter's life, whether choices or genetic dispositions, knowing that that is what God asks her to do. All the rest of it is just human prejudices and control issues. I always say, the last thing I want from God is justice. I would far prefer mercy. Hopefully over time your wife can understand this too. It makes such a difference in how you deal with your fellow man on a day to day basis. But as I said, it's hard. I hope things get better with time.

 

[braumeister]

I would look into a Jesuit (S.J.) or Franciscan (O.F.M.) priest as a counselor. They both tend to be compassionate and stupefyingly overeducated as well as steeped in Church doctrine.

+1
I was once (long ago) a very religious RC, and this advice is spot on.
There are still plenty of casuists who can square a circle.

Still, it would be best to move very gradually in this direction.
Acceptance is never forced, only submission.

 

[Moemg]

I can totally identify with this thread . My son came out after college .It was extremely hard to accept . You basically go through the grieving process and finally come to acceptance . I am Catholic like you a lapsed Catholic but my family is very Catholic , My sister is a nun. ( Which by the way there is a lot of gays nuns and we already know about the priests ). The thing that helped me was seeing my friends losing their children to drugs . I really thought about would I rather deal with that and the answer was a solid no . I realized that I wanted my son in my life . For his thirtieth birthday I took him , his partner and my daughter to Disney World . We had a great time and it really healed a lot of things . . Your wife is wasting precious time trying to change something that is impossible to change .

 

[travelover]

I have two nephews that are gay, married and have children. The families attitudes run from total acceptance to hostility. The ones that have reached out and accepted them share in the joys of seeing their grandchildren grow up and of seeing their kids truly happy. The hostile ones have retreated into their own vindictive little lives.

 

[Nodak]

It really all comes down to what I consider the hardest stricture in the Bible - judge not, lest ye be judged. Your wife should be able to understand that any possible consequences of your daughter's lifestyle is going to be between the daughter and God. She can love and accept her daughter's life, whether choices or genetic dispositions, knowing that that is what God asks her to do. All the rest of it is just human prejudices and control issues. I always say, the last thing I want from God is justice. I would far prefer mercy. Hopefully over time your wife can understand this too. It makes such a difference in how you deal with your fellow man on a day to day basis. But as I said, it's hard. I hope things get better with time.

+1