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Re: Protesting against Freedom - Rally against Gay marriage.............
Old 03-24-2006, 08:51 AM   #141
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Re: Protesting against Freedom - Rally against Gay marriage.............

Quote:
Originally Posted by justin
Think about how strongly you (everyone, not just you CFB) feel that we should be tolerant of gay marriages and accepting of the homosexual lifestyle. Now imagine someone with equally strong convictions but a diametrically opposed viewpoint.
Believe me, I can see it. Two guys sucking face sort of grosses me out. Two girls on the other hand...eh...not so much.

But nothing around allowing gay marriage forces me to accept anything. There are tons of permissable things that I dont much care for. I just dont get around to expecting others to conform to what I think is ok.

I mean, if this results in my being forced to go out and marry another guy, then i'm all against it. If it means that I have to watch two same sex people "go at it" in public, well the same basic decency laws that work for heterosexual couples should apply there. Which is usually someone yelling "Get a room!".

Other than that, my marriage to my wife is not effected one whit by anyone elses relationship or marriage.

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Re: Protesting against Freedom - Rally against Gay marriage.............
Old 03-24-2006, 08:59 AM   #142
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Re: Protesting against Freedom - Rally against Gay marriage.............

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Originally Posted by Rich_in_Tampa
Geez, CFB. You're a lot smarter than everyone says .

I believe that tolerance is neither a conservative or liberal value in the American context. No one owns it.
Rich_in_Tampa:

I hesitate to jump into discussions that have turned argumentative but your comment regarding tolerance is so well put please allow me to jump in and say "me too."

The one-sided points of view expressed by religious fundamentalists (of all religions) are obvious and unfortunate. *But so-called progressives often fail to see their own shortcomings when they artifically categorize people and criticize them with a broad brush.

One of my grandchildren is developmentally delayed due to issues at birth. *His parents have received help from a religiously affiliated organization which sponsors training, workshops, etc., even though they are not members. *This group has been helpful beyond all expectations with never a hint of evangelism or recruiting.

Recently, I was startled to hear friends (who outspokenly identify themselves as liberal progressives) blast ALL Christain based religious organizations as evil, as needing to have their tax exempt status removed and on and on. *They painted these organizations all the same color and attacked them all with the same venom. *Since then, I've listened to so-called progressives in a new light. *So many are "their way or no way" and intolerant of anyone they see as being out of step with their views.

Every situation deserves its own analysis. *Every group is unique. *Every person is her/himself. *Tolerance is neither a conservative or liberal value. * * *
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Re: Protesting against Freedom - Rally against Gay marriage.............
Old 03-24-2006, 09:03 AM   #143
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Re: Protesting against Freedom - Rally against Gay marriage.............

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Originally Posted by Cute 'n' Fuzzy Bunny
Dude...where's my political party?
Not sure. If you find it, let me know. I'll probably join it. The problem I have with living in a civilized society is the other people in it.

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Re: Protesting against Freedom - Rally against Gay marriage.............
Old 03-24-2006, 09:06 AM   #144
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Re: Protesting against Freedom - Rally against Gay marriage.............

Those BASTARDS!
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Re: Protesting against Freedom - Rally against Gay marriage.............
Old 03-24-2006, 09:13 AM   #145
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Re: Protesting against Freedom - Rally against Gay marriage.............

Imagine someone who is so vehemently opposed to gay marriage that they are filled with animosity at the thought or sight of a gay married couple. Ignoring for the moment the appropriateness of their feelings, it doesn't take much empathy to put yourself in this person's shoes and to understand that their feelings truly are hurt by the notion of gay marriage.

I'm sure there are people that are vehemently opposed to interracial marriaged and filled with animosity at the thought or sight of an interracial couple. And those people, I hate to say it, have that right. You have the right to hate whomever and whatever you want. HOWEVER, when that hatred causes a person to take actions that hinder, hurt, humiliate, or discriminate against another person or group of people, THAT's where the problem starts.

If someone can't stand the sight of a gay couple, interracial couple, etc, that's not the gay/etc person's problem. It's the problem of the person who is feeling the hate. That person needs to control that hate and ignorance. And that includes their hate and ignorance disguised as morals. People need to start looking at their own problems and worrying about themselves, and not the others around them. Instead of carrying on about gay people diminishing family values, instead lets focus eradicating spousal abuse, child abuse, teen pregnancies, addictions, etc. Often the first ones to start crying about "family values" have a warped sense of their own values and are just looking for a scapegoat to blame.
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Re: Protesting against Freedom - Rally against Gay marriage.............
Old 03-24-2006, 09:15 AM   #146
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Re: Protesting against Freedom - Rally against Gay marriage.............

DING DING DING!
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Re: Protesting against Freedom - Rally against Gay marriage.............
Old 03-24-2006, 09:17 AM   #147
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Re: Protesting against Freedom - Rally against Gay marriage.............

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cute 'n' Fuzzy Bunny
Believe me, I can see it.* Two guys sucking face sort of grosses me out.* Two girls on the other hand...eh...not so much.

But nothing around allowing gay marriage forces me to accept anything.* There are tons of permissable things that I dont much care for.* I just dont get around to expecting others to conform to what I think is ok.

I mean, if this results in my being forced to go out and marry another guy, then i'm all against it.* If it means that I have to watch two same sex people "go at it" in public, well the same basic decency laws that work for heterosexual couples should apply there.* Which is usually someone yelling "Get a room!".

Other than that, my marriage to my wife is not effected one whit by anyone elses relationship or marriage.

This touches on a good point, a lot of what people cite when they get upset over the "homosexual lifestyle" are really universal violations of common decency, hetero or homo. *I don't want public sex acts by heteros or homosexuals to be tolerated. *But I would feel very fortunate to have a nice yuppie couple who keeps their yard nice next door, whether it's Adam and Eve or Steve.

I believe a lot of what gets associated with the gay culture (and gets reinforced by many in the gay culture) is a reaction to a majority that wanted them to be invisible for so long. *So now having parades with floats of a bunch of men wearing drag complete with high heels and leather thongs and getting "in your face" is *a way of saying, "we are not ashamed, and we're here to stay!". *The anti-gay forces are only strengthening and helping create more of the aspects they hate the most.

youbet, I wholeheartedly agree. *I am a Christian who is very tolerant (I think) which includes biting my toungue around my agnostic/atheist friends and family when they go off on a Christian-bashing sessions. *One in particular went on for over an hour in my Dad's living room, with both me and DW there. *They all knew we went to church, it never occured to them we might take offense. *If we ever mention it, we would just get blank stares and then a "Oh, well you know we aren't talking about you!" which comes across a little like telling a black person, "oh, we ain't talkin' about you, LeRoy, you been a good quient servant the whole time, it's those uppity ____ who is tryin' to stir things up at city hall I'm talking about!" - again, it's probably just an emotional reaction to feeling like they don't fit in with the majority culture, and they have a safe environment to vent, hit back(?)
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Re: Protesting against Freedom - Rally against Gay marriage.............
Old 03-24-2006, 09:21 AM   #148
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Re: Protesting against Freedom - Rally against Gay marriage.............

My Two cents partly on topic

In my opinion the Christian fundamentalists (Bible Thumpers) are a great threat to the Western Society they claim to support. Should you dare to disagree with them you are branded a heretic and non Christian. Where does this leave the non Christian? The popular Christian movement is simply a tool ofbig business and big government.

I don't see any harm in gay marriage but wish it could be called something else that would give them the legal rights of marriage. I see the word marriage as a union between opposite sexes. I also see abortion as murder since I beleive that a fetus is human no matter what stage it is in. One has little to do with the other.

BTW I have not been inside a Church since my aunts funeral ten years ago but was raised Lutheren/United and I my consience would not let me do some of the things some church going people do.

Live and let live

PET said the State has no place in the nations bedrooms. (Pierre Elliott Trudeau)

BTW I separate true Christians who are basically good from Fundamentalist Bible Thumpers who think their way is the only way.

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Re: Protesting against Freedom - Rally against Gay marriage.............
Old 03-24-2006, 09:30 AM   #149
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Re: Protesting against Freedom - Rally against Gay marriage.............

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Originally Posted by sgeeeee
I give up . . . why? *Could it be that the intolerant moral majority would rather whine about being persecuted than have to discuss their intolerant position? *They are willing to march in public to force their narrow view on the rest of the world. *But if someone points out that their position is not rational, they act hurt and complain about a lack of tolerance. *What hypocricy. * They try to force their beliefs on everyone and cry "intolerance".

You say your are offended. . . I am offended by these groups every time they choose to force their religious beliefs on the rest of us.

Speak up if you really have something to say. *But don't expect sympathy by claiming that the religious right is being persecuted. *
The tone is hateful and much more intolerant than the intolerance it purports to object to. The post is frought with over generalizations, logical inconsistencies and the type of rhetoric than incites rather than solves. Why would anyone want to sit down and discuss anything with someone who rants on like this? I am middle class, white and Christian and I don't feel ashamed about any of that.

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Re: Protesting against Freedom - Rally against Gay marriage.............
Old 03-24-2006, 09:35 AM   #150
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Re: Protesting against Freedom - Rally against Gay marriage.............

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Originally Posted by ladelfina
I was offended by Ashcroft's obligatory staff prayer breakfasts. I'm offended by the American Taliban and their "pro-life" stance that embraces war, torture and the death penalty.

I'm offended that the Pat Robertsons and James Dobsons get a constant hearing, and that they are portrayed as "Christians", while the media goes bonkers over the anti-war rhetoric of Rev. Lowery at Coretta King's funeral. The Bushian "Christians" couldn't care less about Christ's message.

You may remember some of these top ten hits:

"Let he among you who is without sin, cast the first stone."

"Judge not, that you be judged. For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you. And why do you look at the speck in your brother's eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me remove the speck from your eye'; and look, a plank is in your own eye? Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye"

"But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you."

"You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.' But I say to you, Do not resist one who is evil. But if any one strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also; and if any one would sue you and take your coat, let him have your cloak as well; and if any one forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to him who begs from you, and do not refuse him who would borrow from you. You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust."

"Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do."

Indeed.
I guess I probably don't agree with much of this except for the quote from scripture, but at least I feel the tone and approach of your comments leaves room for discussion. I wish, however, that you could make your points without making them personal to Bush, Ashcroft etc. It's the personal attacks on individuals that I think are most damaging.

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Re: Protesting against Freedom - Rally against Gay marriage.............
Old 03-24-2006, 09:40 AM   #151
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Re: Protesting against Freedom - Rally against Gay marriage.............

Let's face it, nobody on this earth is truly free from sin. And the Bible can be twisted and interpreted in so many ways, that we're all probably gonna go to hell in a handbasket no matter how much we pray and do good deeds!
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Re: Protesting against Freedom - Rally against Gay marriage.............
Old 03-24-2006, 09:44 AM   #152
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Re: Protesting against Freedom - Rally against Gay marriage.............

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Originally Posted by Andre1969
Let's face it, nobody on this earth is truly free from sin.* And the Bible can be twisted and interpreted in so many ways, that we're all probably gonna go to hell in a handbasket no matter how much we pray and do good deeds!*
Totally agree with the first sentence; totally disagree with the second sentence unless you are counting on the good deeds thing. That's where grace comes in, but again, this is probably not a good forum to go there.

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Re: Protesting against Freedom - Rally against Gay marriage.............
Old 03-24-2006, 10:25 AM   #153
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Re: Protesting against Freedom - Rally against Gay marriage.............

setab, I wouldn't care or have brought anyone into it "personally" if it weren't already a discussion touching on the role of the state to uphold or enforce a certain group's religious tenets. When governing civilly crosses the line into governing religiously, sorry, I'll cross the line of polite disagreement, which includes naming names of public figures I feel are acting contrary to the wishes of the majority of Americans, using their power and influence as government officials to exclusively promote Protestant Evangelism.

There's a world of difference between "hurting" someone's "feelings" and denying someone a right that others enjoy, not based on any logic other than squeamishness or religious disapproval.
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Re: Protesting against Freedom - Rally against Gay marriage.............
Old 03-24-2006, 10:49 AM   #154
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Re: Protesting against Freedom - Rally against Gay marriage.............

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Originally Posted by justin

. . .How can one support gay marriage without ultimately relying on their own values and belief system?* . . .
This is really easy to understand, justin.* Try.* I haven't heard a single person propose outlawing heteosexual marriage.* That's the difference.*

If you believe that one group's efforts to outlaw diversity based on religious beliefs is equivalent to another group's efforts to reduce restrictions on diversity, then you are on a very slippery slope.* Take the case going on in Afganistan today where the courts are considering inforcing existing law, backed by the Koran, to execute someone who has converted from Isalm to Christianity.* Is that okay?* Would it be okay if the punishment were less severe?* Would it be okay if the religions were reveresed in the case?* How is it different from the religious groups in Minnesota trying to drive their views restricting behavior into law?

People on this board are not supporting gay marriage.* They are simply choosing not to support a single, small, vocal, irrational group's view of marriage over all others.* There is a very big difference.

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Re: Protesting against Freedom - Rally against Gay marriage.............
Old 03-24-2006, 10:55 AM   #155
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Re: Protesting against Freedom - Rally against Gay marriage.............

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Oh no!!* The poor, oppressed, white, middle-class, liberal majority is unhappy.* * I weep for them.*

. . .
I wait for the day when this is true. And I believe this administration is unwittingly exposing the far right to be corrupt, narrow-minded hypocrits. This is leading the nation gradually away from their extreme positions and will eventually bring about that liberal majority.

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Re: Protesting against Freedom - Rally against Gay marriage.............
Old 03-24-2006, 11:04 AM   #156
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Re: Protesting against Freedom - Rally against Gay marriage.............

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. . . That's why I think the argument "The religious right is wrong because support for their position is derived from their values and beliefs" is a fallacious argument.

. . .
And no one has made that argument. The argument is that all beliefs are based on values. Different people and different groups hold different values. Why should we limit everyone's behavior based on one group's set of values?

That's the question you really need to answer. No one here has tried to outlaw your lifestyle even though it is not based on their values. Why do you support outlawing lifestyles based on their values? How do you justify that?
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Re: Protesting against Freedom - Rally against Gay marriage.............
Old 03-24-2006, 11:12 AM   #157
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Re: Protesting against Freedom - Rally against Gay marriage.............

so much comment so early in history--all worthy of deep thought--but i'm just out of bed and i've got to get to the gym. wanted to post a little camp from the 1980s "trouble in paradise" album 8-track cd.

listen at your own risk. i will neither be held responsible if this music turns you gay, nor will i accept the obligatory toaster-oven for meeting quota. that said, here's the clip so you can sing along:

http://www.romanovskyandphillips.com...tingfaggot.mp3

What Kind of Self-Respecting Faggot Am I

Guess that I was destined to be the kind of guy
Who never really fits in and never keeps in time
So now I've started asking the question on my mind
What kind of self-respecting faggot am I?

I moved to San Francisco, it seemed the place to be
But I'm not into disco, and bars intimidate me
My only can of Crisco is where it's s'posed to be
What kind of self-respecting faggot am I?

Don't own a single record by Barbra, Bette, or Judy
Heard of Bette Davis, but never saw her movies
Guess I'm irresponsible, it seems I've shirked my duty
What kind of self-respecting faggot am I?

I don't read magazines like GQ
My hair's too long, my clothes are out of style
And when the conversation turns to Broadway shows
All I can do is sit and smile

I don't brunch on Sundays, don't own a set of weights
I wouldn't dream of screwing 'til after several dates
I know it's quite pathetic, I might as well be straight
What kind of self-respecting faggot am I?

It's so hard to be a homo, it's hard to play the game
When you don't own a poster of Marilyn what's-her-name
I know it's hard to fathom, it's really quite a shame
What kind of self-respecting faggot am I?

music & lyrics©1983 Ron Romanovsky & Paul Phillips
Published by Bodacious Music (ASCAP)

ps, that wasn't the door to use the "f" word. the "n" word rule still applies.
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Re: Protesting against Freedom - Rally against Gay marriage.............
Old 03-24-2006, 11:19 AM   #158
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Re: Protesting against Freedom - Rally against Gay marriage.............

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Originally Posted by justin
. . .The point that seems to be overlooked in this thread is that the religious right IS "directly and measurably affected" by the concept of gay marriage.* Not in a physical sense, but rather in a spiritual or moral sense.* For someone who's core identity is largely based on their faith, gay marriage might be one of the most important issues to them.* Imagine someone who is so vehemently opposed to gay marriage that they are filled with animosity at the thought or sight of a gay married couple.* Ignoring for the moment the appropriateness of their feelings, it doesn't take much empathy to put yourself in this person's shoes and to understand that their feelings truly are hurt by the notion of gay marriage. . . .
This is truly scary. *Everyone holds certain beliefs passionately. *Apply your standard of "measurably affected" to Isalmic fundamentalists. *Should we feel empathy for them and pass laws restricting the rights of women, dictating what they wear, reducing them to chattle? * *If not, then what is the difference between their case and the religious right in this country? *They aren't in a majority, although they claim to be. *They have simply leveraged their single-minded voting block and political funding machines to be more influential than most other groups. *

Again, this is a spippery slope. *The fastest growing religious group in America today are the Mormons. *Read about their history and their church today and think about the future when they hold a majority of votes before you propose any more dismantling of the separation of church and state. *
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Re: Protesting against Freedom - Rally against Gay marriage.............
Old 03-24-2006, 11:39 AM   #159
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Re: Protesting against Freedom - Rally against Gay marriage.............

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Originally Posted by setab
The tone is hateful and much more intolerant than the intolerance it purports to object to.* The post is frought with over generalizations, logical inconsistencies and the type of rhetoric than incites rather than solves.* Why would anyone want to sit down and discuss anything with someone who rants on like this?* I am middle class, white and Christian and I don't feel ashamed about any of that.

setab
You make not one single specific point that can be discussed. What do you find intolerant? What over generalizations do you see? Where are the logical inconsistenceis? Of course you don't want to sit down and discuss anything, but don't blame that on me.

Let's recall what this discussion is about. It is about a particular event where a particular group of people in Minnesota are trying not to change existing law (the law is already in their favor) but to place additional hurddles on anyone who might want to modify the law in the future.

So far, the argument supporting them has been, "Some of us don't feel comfortable knowing that homosexuals exist, so can everybody just respect our feelings and outlaw this thing for everybody? If you don't go along with that, you must be intolerant of our feelings and that would make you a bad liberal." Got anything else?

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Re: Protesting against Freedom - Rally against Gay marriage.............
Old 03-24-2006, 11:49 AM   #160
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Re: Protesting against Freedom - Rally against Gay marriage.............

And the terrorists win.
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