Join Early Retirement Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 03-08-2011, 01:29 PM   #101
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
donheff's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 8,633
Quote:
Originally Posted by Westernskies View Post
Agree!

The biggest difference it the physical paradigm, which doesn't apply to e-books.
Except when it does as in the library example we started with. Libraries typically use Adobe ePub which to control the copy. The fact that a motivated cheat could break the DRM protections doesn't relate to the 26 loan limit.
__________________

__________________
Every man is, or hopes to be, an Idler. -- Samuel Johnson
donheff is offline   Reply With Quote
Join the #1 Early Retirement and Financial Independence Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

Are you planning to be financially independent as early as possible so you can live life on your own terms? Discuss successful investing strategies, asset allocation models, tax strategies and other related topics in our online forum community. Our members range from young folks just starting their journey to financial independence, military retirees and even multimillionaires. No matter where you fit in you'll find that Early-Retirement.org is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally FREE!

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest so you have limited access to our community. Please take the time to register and you will gain a lot of great new features including; the ability to participate in discussions, network with our members, see fewer ads, upload photographs, create a retirement blog, send private messages and so much, much more!

Old 03-08-2011, 01:44 PM   #102
Moderator
ziggy29's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Texas
Posts: 15,612
Quote:
Originally Posted by donheff View Post
Except when it does as in the library example we started with. Libraries typically use Adobe ePub which to control the copy. The fact that a motivated cheat could break the DRM protections doesn't relate to the 26 loan limit.
Not to mention that a sufficiently motivated cheat could scan all the pages of a copyrighted hardcopy and distribute the scanned images all over the place.
__________________

__________________
"Hey, for every ten dollars, that's another hour that I have to be in the work place. That's an hour of my life. And my life is a very finite thing. I have only 'x' number of hours left before I'm dead. So how do I want to use these hours of my life? Do I want to use them just spending it on more crap and more stuff, or do I want to start getting a handle on it and using my life more intelligently?" -- Joe Dominguez (1938 - 1997)

RIP to Reemy, my avatar dog (2003 - 9/16/2017)
ziggy29 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2011, 01:48 PM   #103
gone traveling
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 3,864
Quote:
Originally Posted by ERD50 View Post
Wasn't meant to be negative, only honestly descriptive. I have often seen posts from people who simply appear to reject the laws of supply/demand and it is hard to for me to communicate with them. The whole idea of what is fair, or that a business is 'greedy' is foreign to me. In a free market, a business cannot be any more 'greedy' than what the market will bear. And they won't be any less 'greedy' either. The 'greediest' thing they can possibly do is lower prices to maximize the balance between profit and sales. And that is exactly what we want. Without that, we won't get the products we want at the best prices.

Are the buyers 'greedy' or unfair for wanting the product at a lower price?

Sorry if my wording offended anyone, I'm just trying to get this point across.


-ERD50
Crazy capitalist rant...
__________________
Westernskies is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2011, 01:49 PM   #104
Moderator
MichaelB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Rocky Inlets
Posts: 24,406
Quote:
Originally Posted by SunsetSail View Post
So I think you are referring to vertical price fixing (i.e., price fixing between a manufacturer and a retailer) which may be illegal if other factors are present but the practice is not illegal per se.

Horizontal price fixing (between competitors) is illegal per se. So it is possible for a manufacturer to set a price to a retailer, albeit under somewhat narrow circumstances.
SunsetSail, you and I are not in agreement on this but I suspect we are also talking about different things. Because they really aren't relevant to the thread, I'm not going to continue. Not agreeing to disagree, more like let's talk about this when it is more relevant to the topic. Cheers.
__________________
MichaelB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2011, 02:10 PM   #105
gone traveling
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 3,864
Quote:
Originally Posted by donheff View Post
Except when it does as in the library example we started with. Libraries typically use Adobe ePub which to control the copy. The fact that a motivated cheat could break the DRM protections doesn't relate to the 26 loan limit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ziggy29 View Post
Not to mention that a sufficiently motivated cheat could scan all the pages of a copyrighted hardcopy and distribute the scanned images all over the place.
Hmmm..., wonder which one is easier and would go farther, faster. That darned physical paradigm loses again.
__________________
Westernskies is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2011, 02:11 PM   #106
Moderator
MichaelB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Rocky Inlets
Posts: 24,406
Quote:
Originally Posted by ERD50 View Post
Please explain - it seemed clear to me from the link I provided that it is allowed. What am I missing?

As a practical matter - can you find a range of prices on brand new iPads of a specific model (not a refurb, or other bundle)?
If iPads are priced the same at all retail outlets that means they are in high demand, Apple has a successful product and manages its distribution network carefully and successfully, and the dealers are making nice profits as well. This is no indication of price fixing.

I do not understand your rant on people who reject supply and demand and have no idea why it was directed at me. You brought it. You raised the pricing issue as well. I think you are arguing against yourself and using me as a foil.
__________________
MichaelB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2011, 02:11 PM   #107
gone traveling
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 3,864
Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelB View Post
SunsetSail, you and I are not in agreement on this but I suspect we are also talking about different things. Because they really aren't relevant to the thread, I'm not going to continue. Not agreeing to disagree, more like let's talk about this when it is more relevant to the topic. Cheers.
Threadjack Averted!
__________________
Westernskies is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2011, 02:16 PM   #108
Moderator
MichaelB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Rocky Inlets
Posts: 24,406
Quote:
Originally Posted by Westernskies View Post
Hmmm..., wonder which one is easier and would go farther, faster. That darned physical paradigm loses again.
They are quite different. The one Ziggy describes has been around forever. Nothing new here, and if caught would be subject to copyright violation. Lawsuit by the content owner. OTOH, what donheff describes is a violation of DCMA. A criminal violation. Here we have jail time in addition to fines - and still copyright violation as well.
__________________
MichaelB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2011, 02:28 PM   #109
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
TromboneAl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 11,194
You all realize that ebooks, and ebook lending will kill all libraries, right? It will take a while, but it is inevitable. So we'd better hope that a good model for reading ebooks for free emerges.

I'll predict that the last mass-market book will be printed on paper around 2016.
__________________
Al
TromboneAl is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2011, 02:34 PM   #110
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
walkinwood's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Denver
Posts: 2,675
Quote:
Originally Posted by clifp View Post
Netflix works awfully good and at $10/month, I wonder why libraries need to stock recent DVD releases. I see no reason that Amazon or somebody can't come up with a ebook of the month club where you can spend $10-20 or so a month, and check out so many books a month like Netflix. Especially for rural areas, I wonder if we couldn't save money by giving everybody a kid an ebook reader and ebook of the month club account. Letting adults sign up for the program and shut down the libraries.
If the print industry is anything like the music industry, they just don't get the digital world.
__________________
walkinwood is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2011, 02:52 PM   #111
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 13,250
Quote:
Originally Posted by TromboneAl View Post
You all realize that ebooks, and ebook lending will kill all libraries, right? It will take a while, but it is inevitable. So we'd better hope that a good model for reading ebooks for free emerges.

I'll predict that the last mass-market book will be printed on paper around 2016.

OH silly T Al.... they have been calling for the demise of paper money for a long time... and we use more of it today than ever...

They have been calling for the demise of paper checks for a long time... and we might be using more today than ever... (not sure on this though)...


I predict that we will have printed books long after I am dead... and I have a ways to go (hopefully)...
__________________
Texas Proud is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2011, 02:56 PM   #112
Moderator
MichaelB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Rocky Inlets
Posts: 24,406
Quote:
Originally Posted by TromboneAl View Post
You all realize that ebooks, and ebook lending will kill all libraries, right? It will take a while, but it is inevitable. So we'd better hope that a good model for reading ebooks for free emerges.

I'll predict that the last mass-market book will be printed on paper around 2016.
I'll take that bet - and even give odds.

It does seem hard for libraries - although they may be facing other, greater challenges soon. Small community suburban libraries seem most threatened.

This is an epic challenge between the digital era and LBYM. Al, so many are looking to you for leadership and guidance. This is your moment. Are you ready to face this challenge and lead us along the path of the righteous?
__________________
MichaelB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2011, 03:10 PM   #113
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
REWahoo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Texas Hill Country
Posts: 42,067
Quote:
Originally Posted by Texas Proud View Post

They have been calling for the demise of paper checks for a long time... and we might be using more today than ever... (not sure on this though)...
No, check volume has been on a steady decline for years after reaching a peak in the US of more than 50 billion per year in the mid 90's. Last numbers I saw were from 2006 when usage (clearing) was down to 36 billion. They are dying a slow death and will continue to be around for many more years - just like paper books.
__________________
Numbers is hard

When I hit 70, it hit back

Retired in 2005 at age 58, no pension
REWahoo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2011, 03:16 PM   #114
Moderator
ziggy29's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Texas
Posts: 15,612
Quote:
Originally Posted by TromboneAl View Post
You all realize that ebooks, and ebook lending will kill all libraries, right? It will take a while, but it is inevitable. So we'd better hope that a good model for reading ebooks for free emerges.

I'll predict that the last mass-market book will be printed on paper around 2016.
That would be sad, but it's not like libraries would be alone with respect to industries and jobs killed by technology.
__________________
"Hey, for every ten dollars, that's another hour that I have to be in the work place. That's an hour of my life. And my life is a very finite thing. I have only 'x' number of hours left before I'm dead. So how do I want to use these hours of my life? Do I want to use them just spending it on more crap and more stuff, or do I want to start getting a handle on it and using my life more intelligently?" -- Joe Dominguez (1938 - 1997)

RIP to Reemy, my avatar dog (2003 - 9/16/2017)
ziggy29 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2011, 03:53 PM   #115
Moderator Emeritus
Bestwifeever's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 16,372
Quote:
Originally Posted by Westernskies View Post
Simple ( illegal? for "private use"?) pdf conversion. Commercial software, print/scan, or even captured screenshots.The electronic version of xeroxing that textbook, but a lot cheaper, less cumbersome, and a heck of a lot quicker. The potential for abuse is exponentially greater than with physical printed matter, it's just too easy... while the theorists will decry "but, but... that's illegal" it is reality to those dependent on sales for revenue and income.
(a) but it is illegal

(b) textbook publishing is such a huge cash cow that the publishers go after this in a heartbeat. The big red flag is when quantities of a book that's been adopted for a class (whether ebook or traditional textbook) aren't selling. Faculty and publishers work together anyway (because the faculty doesn't care what a book costs, they don't pay for them, publishers supply gratis tons of supplementary pedagogical materials to them, and many faculty members contribute the content to the textbooks, workbooks, test banks, etc., so have a vested interest in sales)--quite doubtful faculty is going to protect students when a publisher comes after them. From one of your state's school: Copyright Guide - Copyright & Digital Course Content | The University of Arizona University Libraries
__________________
“Would you like an adventure now, or would you like to have your tea first?” J.M. Barrie, Peter Pan
Bestwifeever is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2011, 04:00 PM   #116
Moderator Emeritus
Bestwifeever's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 16,372
Quote:
Originally Posted by ziggy29 View Post
That would be sad, but it's not like libraries would be alone with respect to industries and jobs killed by technology.
LIbraries are so adaptable, they will survive long past the demise of traditional books. This new library opened in a Chicago suburb this week: Library of the future opens in Bolingbrook - chicagotribune.com

Quote:
The shiny, LED-lit future of libraries opened Monday in Bolingbrook, promising to be a technology blueprint for others as iPads, Kindles and Nooks replace dusty old paperbacks.

Crowds of curious and eager patrons visited the three-story, $39.5 million building featuring flat-screen TVs, computer terminals, self-checkout stations, an automated book sorter and a cafe.

....

[But, good news!} The new library comes with a dedicated reading room for the more traditional library user.
__________________
“Would you like an adventure now, or would you like to have your tea first?” J.M. Barrie, Peter Pan
Bestwifeever is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2011, 04:03 PM   #117
Moderator
ziggy29's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Texas
Posts: 15,612
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bestwifeever View Post
LIbraries are so adaptable, they will survive long past the demise of traditional books. This new library opened in a Chicago suburb this week: Library of the future opens in Bolingbrook - chicagotribune.com
The function may well continue. The jobs for human labor, like in so many other places, will not. Note the words like "automated" and "self-checkout." These are just more socially acceptable ways of saying "stuff that doesn't employ anyone."
__________________
"Hey, for every ten dollars, that's another hour that I have to be in the work place. That's an hour of my life. And my life is a very finite thing. I have only 'x' number of hours left before I'm dead. So how do I want to use these hours of my life? Do I want to use them just spending it on more crap and more stuff, or do I want to start getting a handle on it and using my life more intelligently?" -- Joe Dominguez (1938 - 1997)

RIP to Reemy, my avatar dog (2003 - 9/16/2017)
ziggy29 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2011, 04:36 PM   #118
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
donheff's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 8,633
Kevin Kelly is predicting eBooks will drop to $.99 each on average in 5 years. If that is the case I will start buying them and not worry about the library.
__________________
Every man is, or hopes to be, an Idler. -- Samuel Johnson
donheff is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2011, 05:06 PM   #119
Moderator
ziggy29's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Texas
Posts: 15,612
Quote:
Originally Posted by donheff View Post
Kevin Kelly is predicting eBooks will drop to $.99 each on average in 5 years. If that is the case I will start buying them and not worry about the library.
I think that was also the theory behind iTunes -- that at low enough price per track, many people won't bother to look for someone to pirate a copy for them.
__________________
"Hey, for every ten dollars, that's another hour that I have to be in the work place. That's an hour of my life. And my life is a very finite thing. I have only 'x' number of hours left before I'm dead. So how do I want to use these hours of my life? Do I want to use them just spending it on more crap and more stuff, or do I want to start getting a handle on it and using my life more intelligently?" -- Joe Dominguez (1938 - 1997)

RIP to Reemy, my avatar dog (2003 - 9/16/2017)
ziggy29 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2011, 02:10 PM   #120
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 11,614
This article discusses three online "clubs" (sites) that allow sharing of ebooks. This model cuts libraries out of the picture altogether.

Quote:
In the past few months, online clubs with such names as BookLending.com and Lendle.me have proliferated. The sites, some of which have gathered thousands of users, allow strangers to borrow and lend e-books for Amazon.com Inc.'s Kindle and Barnes & Noble Inc.'s Nook free.
The sites are the latest twist in the industry of e-books, which has disrupted the traditional book-publishing industry and changed that business's economics. Public libraries can't lend e-books in the Kindle format, though they can for other e-reading devices.
Previously, Kindle and Nook readers were largely limited to sharing e-books with friends because two users needed to know each other's email address to initiate a loan. The new sites give e-book readers access to a larger network of people and a larger selection of books.
The lending sites have drawbacks. One is limited selection. Most major book publishers haven't made their e-books lendable, and the books can be lent only once and for only 14 days. That means that with every successful loan, the sites' available library shrinks unless new users with books to lend join.

. . .






. . . The sites' creators said they decided to launch the services after Amazon, following Barnes & Noble's lead, introduced the ability to lend Kindle e-books in late December. Analysts estimate that Kindle has about two-thirds of the U.S. market for e-books. . . .

Lending on the different sites is similar. Users request the title they want to borrow. If would-be lenders approve the loan of, for example, a Kindle book, they are directed to an Amazon page to complete the swap. The borrower gets the book for 14 days, after which it disappears from the borrower's library and the lender gets it back.
BookLending and Lendle users can swap only Kindle titles, while eBook Fling will allow Kindle and Nook borrowing.
All three lending sites are free to users. But if books aren't available for borrowing, the sites refer users to Amazon, and they make a commission if users buy a book there.
The three sites offer incentives for users to make their books available for lending. Lendle requires users to make at least one book available for loan before starting to borrow, and the site has an algorithm that improves users' chances of getting a book they want if they lend frequently. BookLending has a similar algorithm, though it has no requirement to make books available for loan first.
If this takes off, users will be willing to pay more for a "lendable" version of a Nook or Kindle book, since they can offer it up to the lending site to be loaned out, and garner more points for the next time they want to borrow a book.
__________________

__________________
"Freedom begins when you tell Mrs. Grundy to go fly a kite." - R. Heinlein
samclem is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Anyone use Overdrive for Digital Library Books? TromboneAl Other topics 22 02-19-2011 06:41 PM
iPad app for reading ePub library books Lisa99 Life after FIRE 11 02-04-2011 09:50 PM
Library Books Sarah in SC Other topics 15 07-26-2006 03:00 PM
Free e-books and audio books online Jay_Gatsby Other topics 2 03-15-2006 01:09 PM

 

 
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:36 PM.
 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.