Retiring in one's 30s? Is that really RE or abondoning job/career/work life/more?

[old woman]

I was considering it in my 30s but decided not to retire. I went back to school and bought a bigger house knowing it meant a much longer work life. I was saving money and had a roommate in a paid off house but it would have meant living in poverty for 60 years or so. I could have stayed in my little house but without anything but food pretty much and survived. Working allowed me to save a ton of money a year while buying things like boats and a bigger house. I didn't see the appeal of sitting home doing nothing for the rest of my life.
So I worked in some pretty fun jobs and a couple not so fun and retired much later. Now I can sit home or go places and own some boats, trucks and a car and can buy whatever I want so not nearly as boring as early retirement would have been in poverty. Besides now we have internet and things we didn't have back then.

 

[FUEGO]

To Fuego, I don't think you left work force if you are a stay at home dad with 3 kids from 2 - 9. That's a full time job, ain't it? I am taking your name off of RE at 30 list ... .

I think if it's a full time job you're working too hard at it!

 

[CaliforniaMan]

...A while ago I posted this phrase which seem to resonate with a lot of folks
"Your best months working will be better than your best months in your retirement, but your worst months in retirement will be much much better than your worse months working." Lower highs but way higher lows.
...

I think it is worthwhile for young retirees to ask the question where will I find that sense of fulfillment and self work that working provides. I suspect that by the time most people hit their 50s and certainly by the time they get into their 60s they have accumulated a lifetime of validation, and idealism has been replaced by cynicism.

+1 Clifp, yours is one of the most insightful posts I have read here. Certainly resonates with me.

You have so eloquently stated many of the things that have been going through my mind while reading this thread.

I started out at a young age in the sciences, felt we were making a difference. The money really was always secondary. I often did extra work on my own just for the joy of learning and sharing it with others. When we wrote papers, and they were cited by others there really was a feeling of joy at doing something we felt was worthwhile. And I got to work with really brilliant people! Sometimes I could even make a small contribution, it was such fun I would have done it for free, and often did!

Later started my consulting business and got to work on projects and with people that would never have happened outside of business. I started my business in my early 30s, would not have retired even if I were FI, just would have done it bigger.

One time when business was slow I got to thinking about "when were the times when I was the happiest?" It was not the times I had nothing to do, or could do only what I wanted. In fact there was one full year after a facility I was consulting for closed, and they kept me on at full time pay for doing nothing, just because the VP wanted to retain the knowledge. I got good money and had nobody cared if I did anything. You would think it would be great, but really it was the worst and most depressing time I had in my career. I still worked hard trying to find ways to help, but nobody cared. I was miserable and depressed.

So for me when was I the happiest? I boiled it down to these five things: 1) A project that was very difficult, but not impossible, 2) Somebody really needed and wanted it, it would make a difference to them, 3) I had some helpful skill in that particular area where I could make a significant contribution, 4) I was given the problem to solve, but not told how to do it, had to figure that out on my own, and 5) I got to work with really smart and creative people. (I found I was only successful when I worked with people smarter than me, don't know what that means but it always seemed to work that way).

I was lucky in my career that I was able to work on a number of projects that fulfilled these requirements, and I would always think it was special, and wonder if it would happen again.

If I had not been in the business and working world I would never have had these opportunities, never felt the joy of successfully doing something that somebody said was "stupid" or "impossible", never been to trade show where a lot of people were standing around looking at my creations, never have gotten the chance to work with really brilliant people, never have traveled the way I did, never have felt the feeling of exhilaration at succeeding at doing something difficult.

Now I am not particularly smart, but I did always seek out opportunities that were fun and where I could contribute. Someone once told me, you don't need to be the brightest light in the world, only the brightest light in the room (and I might add: you get to choose the room).

Now I am retired and don't feel the urgent need for this kind of stimulation (maybe I will someday I don't know) but I am grateful for the experience. And you can't get this if you checkout too early.

Sorry for this long post, it just kind of spilled out...

 

[Greencheese]

I was considering it in my 30s but decided not to retire. I went back to school and bought a bigger house knowing it meant a much longer work life. I was saving money and had a roommate in a paid off house but it would have meant living in poverty for 60 years or so. I could have stayed in my little house but without anything but food pretty much and survived. Working allowed me to save a ton of money a year while buying things like boats and a bigger house. I didn't see the appeal of sitting home doing nothing for the rest of my life.
So I worked in some pretty fun jobs and a couple not so fun and retired much later. Now I can sit home or go places and own some boats, trucks and a car and can buy whatever I want so not nearly as boring as early retirement would have been in poverty. Besides now we have internet and things we didn't have back then.

I believe this essentially sums up most (but not all) of the individuals who wish to ERE. I've read countless cases of individuals moving to the country to farm, or rent a room of a house/apartment and living so frugally I ask if its living at all. Sure they may have retired at 32, but if all you can afford to eat is rice and beans and go to the park everyday to pass the time is that really living? And retiring to go farm? That's just a career change

I think we can all agree that the ultimate goal is to stop working sooner rather than later if we so chose. But we all agree that working a little longer than the absolute minimum so we can have the opportunity to partake in luxuries or own nicer things is a fair tradeoff. Sure some people can be completely happy living on the beach and doing nothing but surfing/lounging for years but well... I like doing stuff and partaking in some of the finer things in life from time to time within reason

 

[robnplunder]

There are people I know in this and other forums who retired very early with little money, moved to another country to live on small expense, and living an idle (subjective, I know, no offense intended) life. They are happy without driving fancy cars, and eating 5 star restaurant food now and then. It is unconventional form of retirement as most of us opt to pile up money to live the remaining 20 - 40 years in comfort. My initial question was more for those who decided to quit work in their 30s without striking rich. But I enjoyed interesting discussions hitherto.

 

[FUEGO]

I believe this essentially sums up most (but not all) of the individuals who wish to ERE. I've read countless cases of individuals moving to the country to farm, or rent a room of a house/apartment and living so frugally I ask if its living at all. Sure they may have retired at 32, but if all you can afford to eat is rice and beans and go to the park everyday to pass the time is that really living? And retiring to go farm? That's just a career change

I don't personally get the rice and beans crowd either. But there seem to be plenty of folks at the MMM forums getting by pretty well on $20-40k/yr and eating way better than rice and beans. They're just resourceful and creative.

We're one of those families. Today: Homemade butter chicken curry, massaman vegetable curry, seasoned rice(ok, I had rice). Bagel with bacon scallion cream cheese (sort of homemade). A sip of DW's tamarind cocktail. Beer. Nachos with homemade chipotle salsa, chili lime pork, beans (ok, I had beans), queso quesadilla, crema, fresh tomatoes, cilantro and lime. Belly room permitting, I might have some Thai tom yum noodle soup later on.

I like to cook and try new things. I have time since I'm not working.

 

[clifp]

I dunno, clifp. Every time in my adult life I have let myself be suckered into believing a "greater good" type thing in some sort of organization, I have been disabused of the value of such things by the organizational sh!tshow that I invariably observed up close and personal. Maybe I am wired differently or maybe I am prematurely cynical at age 40, but I can tell you one thing for sure: I would never go find a job to be part of a mission or group. I am picking up a 1 year contract starting late next month and it is about one thing and one thing only: money.

Some people are wired differently, and although I don't know you other than 15,000 post and handful of PM, I'd say you are prime candidate for being wired differently and not being a person who feels a need to be part of team.

I'd also quickly add the world needs iconoclast and no organization needs them more than the financial system. The heroes in Micheal Lewis book the Big Short were all fiercely independent thinkers. They made a lot of money when the figured out that many mortgage back securities were dramatically over valued. I think everybody in his book tried to warn the powers that be of the danger. They were routine punished or at best ignored and consequently many of them started their own firms.

I'm not sure why the tech industry is more accepting of iconoclast, and more willing to listen when one guy say I don't care that you 20 folks/companies are doing X, we have to do Y. The financial industry needs these people as 2008 proved.

 

[brewer12345]

I'm not sure why the tech industry is more accepting of iconoclast, and more willing to listen when one guy say I don't care that you 20 folks/companies are doing X, we have to do Y. The financial industry needs these people as 2008 proved.

I think the financial industry tends to attract opportunists with little in the way of their self interest. There have been studies showing that traders who bordered on sociopathic tended to be more successful, probably because they cared about nothing and nobody but the trade. The schlubs (myself included) that have a strong sense of morals tend to end up in the control/audit/regulatory functions and these functions are usually designed and built to be ineffectual (otherwise they get in the way of making money and we cannot have that). I don't believe the tech world has the stark contrast between the risk takers/rockstars and the plodding flatfoots/control functions.

You are likely right that I am just tetched in the head. To my wife's dismay, I doon't even like hunting with other people too often, which means I find myself in the mountains in winter solo.

 

[clifp]

+1 Clifp, yours is one of the most insightful posts I have read here. Certainly resonates with me.

You have so eloquently stated many of the things that have been going through my mind while reading this thread.

So for me when was I the happiest? I boiled it down to these five things: 1) A project that was very difficult, but not impossible, 2) Somebody really needed and wanted it, it would make a difference to them, 3) I had some helpful skill in that particular area where I could make a significant contribution, 4) I was given the problem to solve, but not told how to do it, had to figure that out on my own, and 5) I got to work with really smart and creative people. (I found I was only successful when I worked with people smarter than me, don't know what that means but it always seemed to work that way).

I was lucky in my career that I was able to work on a number of projects that fulfilled these requirements, and I would always think it was special, and wonder if it would happen again.


Now I am retired and don't feel the urgent need for this kind of stimulation (maybe I will someday I don't know) but I am grateful for the experience. And you can't get this if you checkout too early.

I think you nailed it, those 5 elements are really key and I was happiest when at least 4 of the elements were present in a project I was involved in.

My last 6 month I had a make work job and I was bored out of my mind and not at all happy. I Also part of the reason I retired was because I could at 39, and hell I told my mom at one point to get her off my back I'll retire at 39 and wanted to be right. In hindsight that isn't the smartest of reasons to retire.

Still was burned out and completely ready to take some time off and smell the Plumerias My only regret is not finding a second career. In my case, I should have figured out that Hawaii while terrific place to live, is only mediocre place to work. After living in the Silicon Valley where company have mission statements like Organizing the world's information (Google), to accelerate the advent of sustainable transport by bringing compelling mass market electric cars to market (Tesla), to give people the power to share and make the world more open and connected. (Facebook). It is pretty hard to get excited about Hyatt's Our mission is to provide authentic hospitality.

 

[daylatedollarshort]

I don't personally get the rice and beans crowd either. But there seem to be plenty of folks at the MMM forums getting by pretty well on $20-40k/yr and eating way better than rice and beans. They're just resourceful and creative.

We're one of those families. Today: Homemade butter chicken curry, massaman vegetable curry, seasoned rice(ok, I had rice). Bagel with bacon scallion cream cheese (sort of homemade). A sip of DW's tamarind cocktail. Beer. Nachos with homemade chipotle salsa, chili lime pork, beans (ok, I had beans), queso quesadilla, crema, fresh tomatoes, cilantro and lime. Belly room permitting, I might have some Thai tom yum noodle soup later on.

I like to cook and try new things. I have time since I'm not working.

We are finding it does cost a lot less to live with more free time. Today I made soup in my used thermal cooker with ingredients I either got for free using coupons and sales or stockpiled from Costco. I hung laundrry out to dry using my "solar" drying racks washed in my low water, low energy washing machine i bought using price matching, sales prices, store rebates and utility company rebates.

Later we will probably have wine (stockpiled when it went on clearance) on the patio sitting under the Amazon warehouse deal solar lights.

Maybe tonight or tomorrow we will see a planetarium show using our membership pass I bought for half price on Groupon.

I quite like having time to live sustainably as well as saving money. I could make more money per hour just working more since my hours are scalable, but the sustainable living and money saving ideas are more fun for some reason.

 

[rodi]

Wow, excellent post, Clifp.

When I was in my 30's and 40's, I didn't WANT to quit work. I wanted to find out if I was going to change the world, if I was destined to greatness, or in summary, who I really could be in the big scheme of things. I was working to fulfill my place/destiny in the universe as much as anything, I suppose.

By the time I was 50, I was done with that and ready to retire, which I finally managed to do at age 61.

Now that I am 66, I am beyond cynical. In my youth I bought into the whole work ethic thing, hook, line, and sinker. Looking back I wonder if this values system had nothing of substance to it other than encouraging maximum production for the benefit of individuals higher up in the food chain. This probably is an overreaction but this is how it looks from where I sit. I could go on but will spare you.

I am so glad to be retired and out of the ratrace. I have never been so happy and fulfilled, and I think my health may have actually improved a little over the past five years of retirement.

Excellent post, W2R. It pretty much sums things up for me... I felt the career thrills and ambition in my 30's... and into my early 40's.... but cynicism grew pretty quickly as I saw corporate bigwigs make decisions that created great bonuses for themselves, with high RIF numbers. But we were told to work harder/smarter as we had the staff cut in half, deadlines get more aggressive, etc. By 45 I was seriously cynical and starting to do the math on my retirement plans.

My biggest mindset change happened soon after. My brother (age 49) and father (age 77) dying a few months apart when I was 47 confirmed my decision. (My mom died a few years earlier - less than 6 years after she retired at age 62.) Life may be shorter than we plan for - and what good is a pile of money, twice as big as you need, if you die right after you retire... or worse, before you can retire.

Dave Barry has a line that has resonated with me for years. "Don't confuse your career with your life". I'm not defined by what I did to earn money. My life is what happened outside of my work.

 

[scrabbler1]

Over my 23-year working career, I liked my job a lot and tolerated the commute in the early years. Then the commute took its toll on me as the job satisfaction began to dip, not a lot but enough so that after 11-13 years I had to start thinking about how to change things. At 16 years in, I was able to switch to part-time to lessen the commute. I was 38 at the time and began putting together an ER plan which at the time had me getting out in my early 50s.

I never thought I was abandoning anything because the dang commute was just wearing me out more and more. I wanted my personal life back, plain and simple. And I had to get rid of the commute as much as possible. Once I had my personal life back, I hated the commute more and more, even only a few days a week. It became a bigger and bigger challenge to juggle my limited work schedule with my personal life's activities.

Once I had enough money so that I did not need to work any more, I retired. That happened ahead of my earlier timetable, at age 45. And I never looked back or felt I was abandoning anything. It was time to go.

 

[Focus]

Charities, civic organizations, and causes all are worthwhile activities to find the sense of teamwork that a job provides. Still my experience is that most volunteer activities are rather mundane: clean up a park, read to kids, give tours, help with fund raisers. For the most part entry level jobs with some nice perks and for a good cause. I estimate that less 20% of volunteer really get into the activity. Jobs for most people provide that sense of team and being part of cause greater than your self interest, which fills a need. Getting a paycheck provide a sense of validation that volunteer jobs don't generally provide.

Like others here, I found your whole post thought-provoking, but I'm going to zero in on your discussion of nonprofits and volunteerism.

Earlier in my career, I considered working for a nonprofit that focused on one of my passions, but the pay was abysmal and the workload unhealthy. I now think I dodged a bullet -- I wouldn't have been able to retire early if I had accepted that job offer.

I've also served on several nonprofit boards and have found them, for the most part, unfulfilling. Often, you're expected to fundraise (not enjoyable to me) or contribute considerable money (not possible for me). Therefore, I thought I'd do more frontline volunteering in retirement, but unfortunately, I suspect you're right about the tasks being mundane.

I'd be curious to know if others have discovered a way to avoid the above pitfalls.

 

[daylatedollarshort]

I did volunteer work for our kids' clubs, school and sports teams and that was fine. I have also been okay volunteering with hobby clubs we belonged to. I have not had great experiences volunteering for random, non-profit charitable organizations. Most of the time those entry level volunteer positions end up as providing serf labor to unappreciative, more senior volunteers or paid employees that work less than the volunteers.

I do not want the responsibility or time commitment of doing senior management type work at a nonprofit, nor serfdom at the other end of the spectrum, so I also have not found a good balance on volunteer work these days. I feel like I should be doing something for some good karma. Our next move might be to try civic organizations like the Rotary club where they are part social groups and part fundraisers for good causes.

 

[clifp]

Earlier in my career, I considered working for a nonprofit that focused on one of my passions, but the pay was abysmal and the workload unhealthy. I now think I dodged a bullet -- I wouldn't have been able to retire early if I had accepted that job offer.

I've also served on several nonprofit boards and have found them, for the most part, unfulfilling. Often, you're expected to fundraise (not enjoyable to me) or contribute considerable money (not possible for me). Therefore, I thought I'd do more frontline volunteering in retirement, but unfortunately, I suspect you're right about the tasks being mundane.

I'd be curious to know if others have discovered a way to avoid the above pitfalls.

I would also love to hear others experiences also. I think realistically non profits is the way that many (but by no means all) really early retirees will find some the teamwork aspects missing in retirement.

By far my most positive volunteer experience has actually been serving on the board of directors for Pacific Historic Parks. We essentially help with fund raising for the Arizona Memorial and four other other historically focused sites through out the Pacific. Although fund raising is certainly part of the job, most of it involves helping out operations of our 5 "bookstores", keeping an eye on our investments, and planning for the future. On the other hand listening to others who are on the BOD for non profits I think you experience maybe more typical than mine.

I've only had one other volunteer job where I felt my brain was engaged after I left the premises (Ironically both of them involved Nords...). For instance, I am just heading up the committee that is planning events for the 75th anniversary of the attack on Pearl Harbor Dec 7, 2016. At some point some government official will take over the job, and I'll get pushed aside but hopefully I'll be able to make a difference.

The problem with most frontlline volunteer activities, is they are overseen by a volunteer coordinators. Now typically these folks are in the 20s and this their first or maybe 2nd real job. Now while some are excellent, many are not. The reality is many of the volunteers not only have more knowledge about the subject, and have greater passion, but based on life experience have a better idea of how to organize things. Volunteers, especially us maverick early retire types, are unafraid to ask why, and will typical not take "that is the rules" as an answer.

This can create some real tense situations. For instance a fellow board member, a retired Air Force Col. was recently fired from his volunteer position at the Arizona Memorial. The irony of this was that was a month after he was awarded the Retired Officer of the Year for the state, for his volunteer work not only with the Arizona Memorial, but the Lions club, YMCA, the VA, and couple of the other organizations. This wasn't guy who was afraid to get his hands dirty, if trash needed to be picked up, he picked it up. But he had dared to question the 20 somethings authority and that was taboo. Even more ironically the volunteer coordinator got a promotion to a new National Park service unit.

I've have heard that in Silicon Valley some non profits are starting to change how they are organized. They hire folks to do the entry level position, give tours, read to kids, fix the trails, and use volunteers to do the high level planning figured out what to say on the tours, develop the curriculum for the kids, and figure out which trails to fix and how to do it more efficiently. I am not holding my breath this will spread to Hawaii.

 

[audreyh1]

We managed to "volunteer" by just figuring out what we did that would be useful for a non-profit, and then offering those services. As opposed to signing on as a volunteer, and then doing whatever is assigned. A big part of this for us is giving back to the places that we enjoy so much.

So DH donates nature prints to national and state parks, always appreciated for their education outreach programs as well as showing off what they conserve. We lead some tours in annual nature festivals. We occasionally make graphic design contributions. We regularly post video and photographs of wildlife we encounter in any given park. It's all very much appreciated, and we do as much or as little as we want, with no major schedule commitments.

At this point our "credentials" are well known within our community, so we are drawn on by folks working in nature/wildlife conservation in our area when they need help documenting something important.

Neither DH nor I really feel the "need" for teamwork. Although we do often help out with little volunteer projects here or there that our friends are up to. Most of our post-retirement friends are heavily involved in nature/wildlife as well. That's how we became friends.....

 

[audreyh1]

There are people I know in this and other forums who retired very early with little money, moved to another country to live on small expense, and living an idle (subjective, I know, no offense intended) life. They are happy without driving fancy cars, and eating 5 star restaurant food now and then. It is unconventional form of retirement as most of us opt to pile up money to live the remaining 20 - 40 years in comfort. My initial question was more for those who decided to quit work in their 30s without striking rich. But I enjoyed interesting discussions hitherto.

It's interesting that you didn't specify that in your OP. If someone did strike it "rich" in their thirties, then it would make a lot more sense for them to retire, no? If they truly no longer needed to earn a living. Unless their career meant significantly more to them than any money they earned and the BS component wasn't so high to make it not worth the hassle.

If someone has barely enough in their thirties to retire - that is indeed taking on a very risky proposition. You had better be very sure you can do it.

 

[Focus]

I would also love to hear others experiences also. I think realistically non profits is the way that many (but by no means all) really early retirees will find some the teamwork aspects missing in retirement.

To avoid hijacking this thread, I've spun this topic off into its own...

How to avoid volunteerism pitfalls - Early Retirement & Financial Independence Community

 

[LoneAspen]

In my youth I bought into the whole work ethic thing, hook, line, and sinker. Looking back I wonder if this values system had nothing of substance to it other than encouraging maximum production for the benefit of individuals higher up in the food chain.

This is completely, and spot on, how I feel.

When I graduated from college, I thought I'd find someplace to work, and be there my whole career. I was at that first employer for about 6 years, and in retrospect, that was about 3 years too long.

I quickly learned that as a "cube rat" and individual contributor, with no desire to move into management, I was there to slave away and provide for those higher up the ladder.

But that view also enabled me to be a mercenary regarding my jobs. I didn't believe in corporate loyalty (in either direction) more than two weeks at a time. With every paycheck, my employer bought my loyalty for two weeks - no more. I always kept my eyes and ears open for better opportunities and when they came along, I took them. Never had any fears or doubts about jumping ship, and when I decided to do that, I never looked back.

I consider myself fortunate that over my career, I've fired more employers than have fired me. I've been fired (aka RIF'd) twice in my career, from two startups that didn't make it. I've fired 5 employers, and will fire my current one in February when I'll quit and walk out the door.

So as much as an employer might have used me, I used them, too. And when I was done with one, I threw them away.

 

[Maenad]

I've spent the last few days slowly working through this thread - it's very thought-provoking, and I wanted to chew on my thoughts for a little while.

DH and I were planning on retiring at 35. Of course, we graduated from college in 1997, so the first few years of work were full of stories of people cashing out huge Silicon Valley stock options and retiring in their 30s. Alas, the stock market and our desire to remodel our house pushed things back to ~45, which is still our current plan (5-6 years to go!).

If you ask why, I'd have to say that neither one of us bought into the American work ethic once we started our first jobs. We were working in chip fab and engineering consulting, and neither one of those industries is out there changing the world and doing great things. We've both since moved into Med Device, which has far better impact on society. However, even with being at our career peaks, and having serious positive impact on our companies, our view hasn't changed.

From what I've seen for myself and with my peers, most companies are working to maximize profits and wring every second of work they can out of employees. They use feel-good b.s. to try to compensate for crappy compensation, but "atta-boys" don't put food on the table or money in my 401(k). And if the shareholders are freaking out about profits, out comes the RIF, regardless of whether it's a sound long-term strategy or not.

In contrast, my personal life is filled with amazing,fulfilling relationships. My marriage is a wonderful partnership filled with love and laughter. When we have friends over for game night we eat and laugh and have a great time. I like doing yardwork with my parents. I LOVE reading good books. All of these are things that nourish my soul far better than any job ever has, and are things that my career has gotten in the way of.

Why wouldn't I want to get out ASAP?