Testing to discover your heritage: Would you do it?

[RonBoyd]

Perhaps some people do take up genealogy out of ethnic pride (which I don't "get" any more than you do), it isn't the only reason. I'm curious to know something about my ancestors, even though after so many years it may not be possible to discover more than a name. Eventually, I will "hit a brick wall", and not be able to find out even that much from the surviving documents, so I'm glad that DNA testing offers another way to satisfy my curiosity about them.

I have been making light of this subject but, to be honest, it has been a very enjoyable endeavor. I have over fifty 1st cousins ranging in age from mid forties to late eighties. I have met each of the ones that were still living -- most of them were unknown to each other. I have a close relationship with quite a number of 2nd cousins and so on up the chain to two 6th cousins.

My "Family Tree," as per my research, has over 2,500 names. Sure it is "fun" to show your relationship to two Presidents or to the General who challenged Lincoln to a duel over Mary Todd or to movie stars but that gets old quickly. It is more interesting to have an Uncle who was the oldest member of the Corps of Discovery -- traveling the Lewis & Clark trail was much more interesting knowing that. I could go on -- Relationship to Queen Elizabeth, watching "Braveheart" with the knowledge that your ancestor was the "right hand man" (Protector) of Robert the Bruce, King of Scotland, and fought with William Wallace... and on and on.

And knowing what "Hillbilly" and "Redneck" really means. (William of Orange)

 

[kyounge1956]

My mother made me go to Bible School which I remember as learning little but having lots of fun at. Anyway, it's bothered me since I was little that the pictures of Adam, Eve, Jesus, etc. were all Caucasians when they either are from Africa or the Middle East. We need to revise all that work I've always thought. And, by the fact that we all accept these drawings of Caucasian figures when the subjects are either brown or olive skinned, that should tell us how deeply institutional racism is in our time. We need to change this IMHO.

Goonie: Have you not heard that nobody during those times had belly buttons? I know 'cause the pictures never lie.

I don't know Princess Orchidflower. I think it's only been relatively recent that that sort of historical accuracy about depictions of ancient events has even been thought of, and before it was, artists made no particular effort to depict the clothing, scenery etc, as they would have been at the time and place the events occurred. For example, here is a 15th Century Madonna & Child, in which the Virgin Mary is clothed more or less as a contemporary queen, rather than in the much more modest garments that would surely have been worn by a carpenter's wife in Roman-occupied Judea.

I've also seen pictures by Christian artists from India or the Far East, and they show people in Biblical scenes with Indian or Oriental-appearing features and clothing.

 

[Brat]

We too are having great fun with genealogy, tracing our ancestors across north America. My research revealed why a great-grandmother was parked in a mental hospital -- it turned out to not be mental illness but a stroke. My thickest brick wall is the massacre of the Bevens (Bevins) family in 1787 in what is now West Virginia. Who knew history could be so interesting.

My husband has participated genealogy-DNA. Male DNA does a good job of documenting relationships. His male line, by oral history, left from Ireland to the USA but no one now knows just where they were in Ireland. As other males from his line participate he may be able to focus his research.

It is true that children may not be the biological offspring of the male on the birth certificate. When were discussing inherited conditions my OB once said, "We assume nothing. You can be certain of the mother, but not the father." Not all non-marital conceptions were the result of dalliances, before the availability of safe abortions often women who were raped gave birth to a child not of her husband. If the resulting offspring was female that would be difficult to find with a genealogy-DNA test but for males it is very evident. Consider for a moment the fact that Judaism looks to the female line in determining whether or not a child is Jewish - a very practical approach historically.

 

[samclem]

I'm curious to know something about my ancestors . . .

Yep, I don't understand that either. Why the curiosity? I feel more "kinship" to people I've talked to for 5 minutes than I ever could for some long dead ancestor. And, especially after the genetic material has been diluted across a few generations, I'd be just as likely to share unique genetic traits with some strangers as with some of these ancestors.

But, I know I'm a distant outlier in this regard.

 

[RonBoyd]

I feel more "kinship" to people I've talked to for 5 minutes than I ever could for some long dead ancestor. And, especially after the genetic material has been diluted across a few generations, I'd be just as likely to share unique genetic traits with some strangers as with some of these ancestors.

Just the same, it is fun to imagine a "kinship" to long dead ancestors. For example, this guy in my "tree":

John Tyler - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

What an exciting time he lived in. Texas? Well, maybe.

 

[kyounge1956]

I'm curious to know something about my ancestors

Yep, I don't understand that either. Why the curiosity? I feel more "kinship" to people I've talked to for 5 minutes than I ever could for some long dead ancestor. And, especially after the genetic material has been diluted across a few generations, I'd be just as likely to share unique genetic traits with some strangers as with some of these ancestors.

But, I know I'm a distant outlier in this regard.

I didn't say I felt kinship with them. I would have to learn a vast deal more about history, and about any specific ancestor, than I am ever likely to do, to have any real idea what their lives were like, and whether we are "akin" in the sense I think you mean it. Nevertheless, I wonder...what were their names? where did they come from, and where did they go? what did they do for a living? There is also a puzzle-solving aspect to genealogy that I enjoy. I like to dig out some elusive document that reveals one of the answers of the above questions. I don't know why. I'm just inquisitive I guess.

 

[audreyh1]

Family on both sides did a pretty good job of recording family history.

On Father's side we have a family homestead built in 1712 on the Brandywine River in PA. One of the American Revolution battles was fought on that property. They were Quakers who came over from Worcester, England, escaping religious persecution. Over many generations the family split and moved all over the country, and my great uncle documented the history for every generation. I'm 10th generation from this line. The homestead is no longer in the family.

On mother's side through her maternal great-grandfather - he came down from North Carolina and settled the land in central GA in 1856. Shortly thereafter he fought in the "war between the states", but still made it home with his sword. This land has been in the family ever since and my father still lives there. We are related to half the people in the nearby town. The family origins pre NC are believed to be Scotch-Irish.

So - plenty of "heritage" for me. I haven't really been that curious about my DNA as most of us in the family look like Northern Europeans.

Audrey

 

[audreyh1]

Oh well....at least we got pretty beads and fire-water out of the deal!

Not to mention horses!

Audrey

 

[WhoDaresWins]

I do understand wanting to know more about one's ancestors. Even though I don't know much about my family beyond my grandparents, I do know that they instilled my parents, and hence myself, with a strong sense of how lucky I am to have had the opportunities and freedoms I have enjoyed in life. Every previous generation had to work much harder, overcome more obstacles, than I ever had to. I have been the beneficiary of their efforts and sacrifices to a very large extent and for that I will be eternally grateful. Not a day goes by that I don't wish my parents were here to share in my life and afford me the opportunity to thank them for the foundation they gave me.

 

[RonBoyd]

Uh, yeah but.....my ancestors were already here before that! Some of those idiots thought it would be 'cute' to let a few 'white folks' into the neighborhood. But when they sobered up, they realized that they really should not have forgot to lock the door! And our friggin' cousins down in Florida let the Spaniards in. What the h*ll were they all thinkin' back then?

All them foreigners came in....stole our property, ate our crops, killed our wildlife, polluted out rivers and lakes, and worst of all....they brought in all those d*mn politicians!!!

Oh well....at least we got pretty beads and fire-water out of the deal!

Yeah, this is exactly what I was referring to earlier about a "weak" claim to citizenship. I grew up in the Black Hills of South Dakota and have a deep sympathy for the Native Americans.

I have several Native American grandmothers. None in the past three centuries, however. My ancestors, on my Mother's side, were those fur traders fictionalized in the movie "Rose Marie."

From my notes in my Family History:

It was not long before some of the men at the trading posts decided they would go inland and get the fur themselves. Unwilling to be told what they could and could not do, a new breed of Frenchman developed -- the coureurs de bois -- “Vagabonds of the forest” or “runners of the woods” (Pronounced koo RUR duh BWAH). ...

<a lot of not very nice things>

The coureurs de bois capture the imagination of all who read about them. They were a gay, devil-may-care lot, completely lacking in fear, singing their songs (which were sometimes sad but generally rollicking and wild). They were true sons of the wilderness, having a love for the woods much more real than any emotion of which the stoic Indian was capable. They were mercurial in the extreme -- sometimes kind and sometimes cruel, sometimes loyal and sometimes treacherous. They believed in countless superstitions. The northern lights were marionettes to them, and they were convinced that the skies lighted up and danced because they, the bold vagabonds, were filling the evening sky with their songs.

 

[Orchidflower]

RonBoyd: Your Tyler relative had 22 children and was highly educated? Horny and smart? I'm still reeling from the 22 children...whew.
My Grandfather was Cherokee, and we assume it's true as a few of us have American Indian features (high cheekbones, mild Indian noses, coal black hair on some of us).
Unfortunately, the poor Indians are the lowest form of humans in this country today and the most crapped on group there is by the government. Yeah, I know they allow them to have gambling now..but come on! For years they have been the "forgotten" group here with minimal efforts to help them. Handouts aren't my idea of improving the Indians lot.
My mother went thru South Dakota probably in the '60's, and saw the poverty of the American Indians first hand there; so she has donated money to the American Indian children's orphanages there for years and years and years.
I've promised her if I ever took in a child to raise or help that it would be an American Indian child.

 

[RonBoyd]

RonBoyd: Your Tyler relative had 22 children and was highly educated? Horny and smart? I'm still reeling from the 22 children...whew.

Yeah, but that was fairly typical of the Scots/Irish (an American term) in America. In fact, it was the basis for popular satire such as the Ma & Pa Kettle movie series.

My Grandfather was Cherokee, and we assume it's true as a few of us have American Indian features (high cheekbones, mild Indian noses, coal black hair on some of us).
Unfortunately, the poor Indians are the lowest form of humans in this country today and the most crapped on group there is by the government.

Recall what I said earlier about the European, the Aborigine and the Native American being genetically identical (I forgot but should have added a group that stayed in India and are still there today).

Ain't it great how we humans can separate each other into "Us" and "Them" so easily... and irrationally.

 

[Orchidflower]

Guess I need to meet myself some nice Scots/Irish guy then...ha!
Yeah, RonBoyd, I doubt if anyone denies that the American Indian has gotten a bad shake. Definitely that group has been put into the "Them" category by most Americans still. I found that out when I told some business associates that I was 1/4th Indian. Not a positive reaction at all...as if I could care about what they thought as I like being part Cherokee.

 

[samclem]

Ain't it great how we humans can separate each other into "Us" and "Them" so easily... and irrationally.

People fixate on what tribe they came from, the various supposed inheritied attributes of the many tribes, and take personal pride based on these attributes--then marvel at how it is that we irrationally separate ourselves into "us" and "them." We are a funny lot.

 

[Brat]

My mother went thru South Dakota probably in the '60's, and saw the poverty of the American Indians first hand there; so she has donated money to the American Indian children's orphanages there for years and years and years.
I've promised her if I ever took in a child to raise or help that it would be an American Indian child.

As some families have learned to their grief, to take in an American Indian child requires consent of the tribe to which their parents belonged. Oft there are nasty custody fights.

Tribes take pride in their culture, they are quite different. For example some are matrilineal, others patrilineal. When there is a 'mixed marriage' (different tribes) things can get complicated for the kids.

Native American descendancy is different than indicating that you are a Native American in the human resources world because there are some folks who claim status just for chuckles. If an applicant or an employee isn't actually a member of a recognized tribe then they must consider whether or not the community regards them as Native American. The Cherokee seem to welcome anyone who can prove Native American descendancy. One of the reasons why this can be important is that employers with facilities close to a reservation can have a policy of Indian preference. This exception to the EEO law was established to address the differential in the unemployment rates between Native Americans and others.

 

[Leonidas]

People fixate on what tribe they came from, the various supposed inheritied attributes of the many tribes, and take personal pride based on these attributes--then marvel at how it is that we irrationally separate ourselves into "us" and "them." We are a funny lot.

I took over my deceased uncle's genealogy project and came to similar conclusions. You run across some strange morphing of things when you get a look at the lives of enough of your ancestors. I've got more than 3200 names documented of ancestors who include some who wound up on different sides of some major historical issues.

It's one thing to understand the institution of slavery in the historical context, and another to look into your family tree and see a many times over great grandfather's will in which he divided ownership of his slaves between his widow and grown children. It made me wonder if I was somehow tainted by the relationship. Despite the context of the times (1700's) is the evil of that counteracted by the supposed good of my cousin John Brown's activities organizing the Underground Railroad or his raid at Harper's Ferry? Do I have to weigh the number of ancestors who fought for the Union against the number who fought for the Confederacy? Or my still living cousins, the ones who have the same complexion as President Obama, how do they configure in my family's collective weight on the issue of slavery in America?

Like the slavery issue, my family has similar history with the Indians. Before RonBoyd's immigrant ancestors were even born my first immigrant ancestors were busy in New Amsterdam (New York) dispossessing Goonie's relatives. No Indian relatives that I know of, but ancestors and relatives include "Old He Wolf", who was described as a terror on the trail of Indians; Meriwether Lewis who championed Cherokee issues with the whites; and, Daniel Boone who was both an adopted Shawnee and made war against them and their British allies in the Revolution.

IMO, I'm not any more an American than the newest naturalized citizen. Even though many of them may still think of themselves as Ethiopian, Mexican, Indonesian, German, etc., I know that within one to two generations, their children will be just as much a seamless part of the fabric of American Society as my kids and grandkids. There will be noble deeds to be proud of, and a few ignoble ones to be ashamed of. I might get a little extra sense of (undeserved) pride that George Washington is my 2nd cousin several times removed, but I have a greater sense of pride in sharing him as the father of my country and a great leader in the American experiment in democracy that we are all participants in.

 

[Orchidflower]

SamClem: You got a good point there and food for thought, for sure.

Some really fascinating histories on you folks on the board. I wish I could trace that far back with my family, but with all the horse thieves and all...maybe we don't know for a reason..ha!

 

[bruce1]

I am thinking of taking the testing.

On a more historical note I have a couple many times great uncles from England who have a notation beside their names in the family history that they "emigrated" to Australia at the time England was sending prisoners there. I really would like to know the real story.
Burce

 

[Ed_The_Gypsy]

I find the patterns of human expansion as illuminated by the new genetic information fascinating, but there are many things I would pay for before checking into my own genetic history.

Our families are fairly diverse, just as everyone else is discovering. I enjoy learning about our family and people I know. We love to recount our family stories, too. It is good for the kids to know these things.

I am happy that all this new information is helping to destroy prejudice.

 

[RonBoyd]

I am thinking of taking the testing.

Bruce, while I am not apposed to DNA testing for genealogical reasons, I still beleive what I wrote 6-7 years ago on a Rootsweb forum:

DNA is an extremely powerful tool for identifying an individual, their parents and siblings. However, going back up the chain of ancestors, the identification process becomes increasingly fuzzy.

The DNA indicators (or whatever they are called) that I share with another person would, I suppose, prove that he and I share a common ancestor. However, it would not tell us which common ancestor that would be unless we could procure a sample of the common ancestor's DNA. The problem is getting hold of 200-300-400 year old DNA -- or whatever the exact number of years backwards to the common ancestor. Even then, if you could get a sample, you are still left with the "genealogy" issue -- proving it with documentation. Which is kind of circular in actual practice... if you knew the location of the common ancestors bones, you would, no doubt, already have the documentation to prove your ancestry. Unfortunately, these things are found only in the rich and famous, and I have seen no evidence that leads me to think I need worry about that.

Therefore, if I had a similar DNA results as another person with the Boyd surname all that would do is "prove" that we share a common ancestor. That, of course, would not be very surprising but, in any event, bring me no closer to the common ancestor.

That continued a conversation in which I later added:

Anyway, so that I keep everything on track, I should explain that I was painting with a very broad brush in my earlier post. I was trying to be non-specific and was speaking of "Genealogy by DNA" in general. With that in mind, I have to whole-heartedly agree that simply because my surname is "Boyd" does not mean that I am descended from the same common ancestor as every other person with the same last name. What I said was that I would not be that surprised if I found it to be the case. I further agree that DNA from contemporary individuals would prove or disprove the very existence of a common ancestor and the greater the number of participants the sooner the "odd man out" in the case of "disproved."

A side bar: When I first heard the expression "non-paternal event," I thought "Wow! What a nifty way to explain away the 'unknown father' problem." But then it just didn't stand up under examination and I have been unable to use it thus far. It suggests that the individual belongs in that special group of sixteen (Jesus of Nazareth, for example) who claim origin from Immaculate Conception. I am still waiting to run across one of them in my genealogical research.

I guess what I am trying to say about current DNA research is that I am not convinced that a couple of hundred bucks is equal value for the return. Why, for that kind of money I can go to a movie.

Of course, we Boyd's never disagree. We are too busy spouting our opinion to get involved in anything so petty.

and even later:

My point is that I, personally, am unconvinced that a DNA study would provide me any benefit. I do apologize, however, for the unfortunate analogy. I wasn't comparing "going to a movie" with "searching for an ancestor." (Although, in thinking about how you took it, perhaps it wasn't so far afield.) It was only my puny attempt at humor. I could just as easily have said "Why, for $169, I could buy a new pair of shoes." Now, if you think that I would spend that on a pair of shoes, we are really not from the same family. (and we learned that without either of us giving up any body fluids... I hope.) Not any more likely than I will be running out to see a movie in the foreseeable future.

My reluctance to accept DNA analysis doesn't make me a "nay-sayer" (in a pit-fall, perhaps, but...). It simply means that those "people who have been trained and have experience in DNA analysis" have not gotten my attention yet. Someday, perhaps, but not yet. And this would a perfect forum for them to step forward. (By forum, I mean the message thread not the list.)

Certainly, I am happy that one of us is willing to tromp off to the frontiers of science. And I am equally tickled that one of us is willing to pay for the journey. Therefore, I am not trying to discourage one of us in any way shape or form. In fact, I will expect great things to come from this. Until then, I am merely the guy with a ton of questions.

Yes, I agree that your relatives (and many others besides) should get into this conversation. I fear I will not be able to add much more (assuming I have added any).

 

[RonBoyd]

I am happy that all this new information is helping to destroy prejudice.

Amen to that.

 

[TromboneAl]

You can do this for your dog:

Dog DNA Test Doggie DNA Testing and Mixed Breed Canine DNA Testing For Dogs - Dog-DNA.com

 

[omni550]

You can do this for your dog:

Dog DNA Test Doggie DNA Testing and Mixed Breed Canine DNA Testing For Dogs - Dog-DNA.com

Can we find out if we are related to our dog? LOL

omni

 

[ls99]

I used to have fun by writing "Hun" into ethnic rubrics. EEO folks would go bonkers.

 

[bruce1]

Thanks RonBoyd. That is good information to think on. Also I am going to check out the rootsweb site. Our tree is is back to the 1600's in England and we are not sure where to look next.