The Head Of A Household Of Four Making Minimum Wage Has More Disposable Income Than A

[MichaelB]

I don't know why I ever went to work. It sure pays to be poor.

Really, what is the point of this thread? The comparisons made in the referenced article are artificial. Two things that jump out:
- payroll taxed are quite unfair and punitive at lower income levels,
- access to healthcare is crippling this country.

 

[youbet]

I could argue either side of the equation. Some born into middle or upper class homes, get educated, make wise choices and lead good productive lives, while others born into the same environment fail because of poor choices. Children born to poor parents or especially poor single parents living on government subsistence usually repeat the cycle, while some can pull themselves out through hard work, education and good choices. All things being equal though, those born into the middle class have a much better chance to succeed than those born into economically poor environments.

I agree with you completely frayne, but for the very facts you state above, still feel that "if they would like to change places with someone making $60K" is the wrong question to ask. There's more to it than that.

 

[Westernskies]

I could argue either side of the equation. Some born into middle or upper class homes, get educated, make wise choices and lead good productive lives, while others born into the same environment fail because of poor choices. Children born to poor parents or especially poor single parents living on government subsistence usually repeat the cycle, while some can pull themselves out through hard work, education and good choices. All things being equal though, those born into the middle class have a much better chance to succeed than those born into economically poor environments.

Ah yes, the infamous birth lottery issue again. Maybe we can settle this after we all agree whether people should pay off their mortgages early or invest in beaver cheese futures.

Here's an example of why I don't believe the birth lottery argument:

Two children born out of wedlock, to two different teenage girls. Adopted less than a year apart by a loving middle age couple. Raised in a middle class suburb in a Midwestern city, both attended public schools, scouts, little league, etc. Both above-average intelligence, no health issues, parental abuse, etc. Sibling 1 ends up doing 20-to-life for armed robbery and has spent 80% of adult life incarcerated. Sibling 2 has a Masters Degree from a prestigious state university, and is doing well in the workforce. One chose to become a career druggie criminal, the other chose a career. Both made appropriate choices to get where they are today, it wasn't "the birth lottery"; they were raised the same. BTW, I know this family very well, this isn't a hypothetical situation.

I agree with your statement that "All things being equal though, those born into the middle class have a much better chance to succeed than those born into economically poor environments". That isn't going to change, nor should it. The folks who can offer their kids that middle class chance at success worked hard for it; we don't want to "deward" them in favor of those who made different choices that resulted in a different outcome. That's life; we don't all get a trophy just for showing up.

We need to give the poor the chance (via education and workforce opportunities) to make something better out of their situation, not make it easier to stay where they are (via failed multi-generational entitlement programs).


And I vote to pay off the mortgage early, BTW; beaver cheese futures are too risky if the government quits distributing it for free...

 

[lets-retire]

There are so many opportunities for the multi-generational lower income classes to obtain education and receive the winning ticket in the "birth lottery" by government force, that I think the "birth lottery" is a myth. There are more than a good number of programs for the poor to obtain education, grants for starting businesses, stipends while they are waiting for their business to become profitable, etc.

The only assistance I received when I left the crap hole my life had become living in my father's house was, "good-bye." I applied for every form of assistance I could think of, but because I "won the birth lottery" and was a first generation poor white male, I didn't qualify for any of it. I have been ridiculed often on this site because I have stated over and over that I made it on my own. I have had it pointed out that no I didn't. I assure you, everything I have has been because I decided to improve my situation. I decided to do something other than whine that life isn't fair. I decided to change my situation. Had I done what many others in my position would have done, I'd still be barely making ends meet living in a small (<400 sq ft) apartment getting rides to work, because I couldn't afford to replace or fix the car I had when I left my father's house. I am no different than many on this site, who were supposed winners of the "birth lottery", and decided to better their life circumstance. For me the "birth lottery" had a grand prize of $1000 and was won by a million people. I couldn't even buy a thimble of water for what I "won" in the birth lottery.

 

[Retch The Grate]

facebook game company employee (not sure what she does)...

which Facebook game company? The game industry is small, she may work with friends of mine.

 

[SunsetSail]

We need to give the poor the chance (via education and workforce opportunities) to make something better out of their situation, not make it easier to stay where they are (via failed multi-generational entitlement programs)....

This is the key in my opinion. It seems like people who are critical of entitlement programs are attacked on the basis that the critics are selfish and greedy because they don't want to share their money. However, some (hopefully most) are critical of entitlement programs mainly because history has shown that they don't really work in the aggregate at least not at any level of reasonable efficiency.

 

[dex]

One aspect no one pointed out is that the taxpayer is subsidizing businesses that pay minimum wage. One answer might be for the Fed & State governments to establish Living Wages which would pay people enough to take care of their of themselves and get rid of the government subsidies and lower taxes.

 

[brewer12345]

I do not care to wade into this highly political thread (hint, hint to the mods and the musical pig), but has anyone considered that a lot of induhviduals in the Merkin population simply aren't all that bright? Its pretty hard to get through college and get a good job when you really aren't all that smart. What about all the stupid people out there?

 

[MichaelB]

One aspect no one pointed out is that the taxpayer is subsidizing businesses that pay minimum wage. One answer might be for the Fed & State governments to establish Living Wages which would pay people enough to take care of their of themselves and get rid of the government subsidies and lower taxes.

Excellent idea. I doubt there is political will, but it still would be a major step forward. Add vocational schools as an option / alternative to our current secondary school system.

 

[Westernskies]

I do not care to wade into this highly political thread (hint, hint to the mods and the musical pig), but has anyone considered that a lot of induhviduals in the Merkin population simply aren't all that bright? Its pretty hard to get through college and get a good job when you really aren't all that smart. What about all the stupid people out there?

But you did, anyway.

And, this thread has been remarkably civil; good discussions, no name-calling....

 

[lets-retire]

I do not care to wade into this highly political thread (hint, hint to the mods and the musical pig), but has anyone considered that a lot of induhviduals in the Merkin population simply aren't all that bright? Its pretty hard to get through college and get a good job when you really aren't all that smart. What about all the stupid people out there?

Everyone has a talent at something. Most can make a decent living at it. To answer your question about all of the stupid people, I think many go to Washington and get a job.

 

[Texas Proud]

This is the key in my opinion. It seems like people who are critical of entitlement programs are attacked on the basis that the critics are selfish and greedy because they don't want to share their money. However, some (hopefully most) are critical of entitlement programs mainly because history has shown that they don't really work in the aggregate at least not at any level of reasonable efficiency.

That is more of what I would want... a handout when you are down... but not a lifetime of handouts...

You know that people can live with others... they do it 'over there'... why should we provide a separate place to live for everybody... all the time...

 

[SunsetSail]

One aspect no one pointed out is that the taxpayer is subsidizing businesses that pay minimum wage. One answer might be for the Fed & State governments to establish Living Wages which would pay people enough to take care of their of themselves and get rid of the government subsidies and lower taxes.

A potential problem is that minimum wages and living wages may be used as tools for others' benefit and hurt minimum wage earners. $12/hour each for two unskilled min wage earners vs. $20/hr for one skilled union worker. The min wage job may just be elminated instead of actually helping.

 

[SunsetSail]

What about all the stupid people out there?

I'll admit that if there are too many stupid people out there most of my philosophy on the issue will fail in practice. I like to hope that it isn't the case and it is more a matter of ignorance than stupidity.

However if everyone has a graduate degree then we better start working on an army of robots to handle some of the more menial tasks. I can't imagine how Congress would corrupt passage of the 'three laws'.

 

[tryan]

After 20 years of renting to the "poor" the only answer I know is reduce the subsidies.

Case in point .... I just rented a HUD home I rehab'ed over the summer. The tenant is disabled. Receives: housing (1200/mo), SSDI (1100/mo) and heat subsities. Not sure about food stamps.

Here's the kicker: she drives a Lexus (from the boyfriend) and has between 15-20k worth or diamonds on her fingers. Questioned about the jewels, she said they were: "gifts" and "inhertitance". Questioned about the car, "it's registered in my boyfriends name". Did I mention the boyfriend is paying an extra 100/mo for her rent.

Yeah, these people know how to play people.

Street smarts might trump college smarts.

 

[NW-Bound]

...The tenant is disabled...

Do you know what her disability is?

 

[haha]

This is the key in my opinion. It seems like people who are critical of entitlement programs are attacked on the basis that the critics are selfish and greedy because they don't want to share their money. However, some (hopefully most) are critical of entitlement programs mainly because history has shown that they don't really work in the aggregate at least not at any level of reasonable efficiency.

I believe your post points out one of the main differences between realists on this type issue, and hopeful hopers.

Realists tend to have had real life experience with these things, to many hopeful hopers they are more of an abstraction or an academic construct. Add to this that the liberal outlook seems on the surface to be more loving and less selfish, and thus more attractive on that basis alone.

If a person has spent their life in academia, or locked away in a cublicle, and living in a suburb with their kids in suburban schools, they are free to believe whatever makes them feel good- as the chance of being directly harmed by that belief should it prove wrong is small.

Ha

 

[Westernskies]

Do you know what her disability is?

Well, she's obviously not suffering from stupidmerkin disease...

 

[tryan]

No, I don't know what the disability is; I don't doubt the disability. She has trouble walking (and has been truthful with me ... so far).

 

[donheff]

I agree. But I remember a few years ago, an ongoing story on NPR about a high school (in Chicago?) where they got the parents and kids to buy into the whole education and go to college thing. It was in a very poor neighborhood. Anyhow, the experiment worked. I tried to find it via google but failed. I thought it was Washington Irving HS but apparently not...

IS this the deal where a philanthropist guaranteed an entire grammar school class (1st grade or kindergarten IIRC) that he would pay their way through college? He kept up with the students for decades and a remarkable number made it through college. Interesting show.

 

[Texas Proud]

I know there is this debate on if this... some seem to try and say 'it is not so, and if it is why would someone not just work for minimum wage'...

But I think this is not a valid argument... I think what the article is trying to show is that there are some very expensive programs out there that do not expire and they have real value... and real costs to society...

Sure, if they had the choice most people would choose the $60K job because it gives them more freedom... they do not have to go to a doc that takes medicaid... they do not have to live in a Sec 8 house... they do not have to deal with the hoops etc (I do not know if this is really a problem or not... maybe it is way to simple) to get these benefits... So I do not think they are saying the person has a 'better life' making minimum wage, just that their disposable income is a lot higher than what one would think...


I also think that it shows how welfare is out there... heck, the benefits this family gets is more than the income.... and if you multiply this times the number of people receiving this aid it has a real cost... and I also think it makes some people not want to improve their lives... it makes a permanent subclass of person...


Now, if we invested the same amount of dollars to improve their skills... so they CAN get a higher paying job... which in turn means more taxes... that to me sounds like a better 'investment'...

 

[haha]

Saw this yesterday-

Food Stamp Usage Hits New High Of 43.2 Million | zero hedge

The analysis is tongue in cheek, but the numbers are real. This is 14% of our population.

Ha

 

[kumquat]

What about all the stupid people out there?

Well, a few ended up in executive positions at my former mega-corp.

 

[eridanus]

I believe your post points out one of the main differences between realists on this type issue, and hopeful hopers.

Realists tend to have had real life experience with these things, to many hopeful hopers they are more of an abstraction or an academic construct. Add to this that the liberal outlook seems on the surface to be more loving and less selfish, and thus more attractive on that basis alone.

If a person has spent their life in academia, or locked away in a cublicle, and living in a suburb with their kids in suburban schools, they are free to believe whatever makes them feel good- as the chance of being directly harmed by that belief should it prove wrong is small.

Ha

I believe your post points out one of the main differences between the tight-fisted "I-am-an-island" types and the realists on this issue.

Realists tend to have had real life experience with these things, to many tight-fisted isolationists they are more of an abstraction or an academic construct. Add to this that the conservative outlook seems on the surface to be "I-got-mine-forget-you", and thus more attractive on that basis alone.

If a person has spent their life thinking that society doesn't affect them, or locked away in a cublicle, and living in a suburb with their kids in suburban schools, they are free to believe whatever makes them feel good- as the chance of being directly harmed by that belief should it prove wrong is small.

 

[eridanus]

I'll say, the numbers appear to be 'cherry picked' to show the peak of the effect. Some cases may even be worse, many may be better. But if the slope of risk/reward isn't enough to make many people want to get off the programs, you can't expect them to (there will be exceptions of course).

You acknowledge that your argument is based on cherry picked numbers yet you still continue to make an argument?!? Unbelievable.