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Old 09-03-2011, 01:23 PM   #21
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To be a bit of a devil's advocate though, should be believe the possibility of redemption? Or is the mere fact of having a parole system an injustice?
I have no idea, but you could ask Pete Rose...
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Old 09-03-2011, 01:29 PM   #22
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I have no idea, but you could ask Pete Rose...
I sincerely believe that if Pete Rose admitted to a gambling problem and sought help for his addiction when first confronted with it, instead of lie, lie, deny, deny and stonewall -- he would have been forgiven by MLB and by many fans... and would be enshrined in Cooperstown today.

It's like Watergate -- the obstruction, lies and the coverup are what people remember as being the most foul smelling -- not the act they were covering up.
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Old 09-03-2011, 02:02 PM   #23
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I quit watching stick and ball sports years ago when Kevin Garnett turned down 123 million dollars. While it's impossible to not see the headlines, I don't care enough anymore to read the stories.

I'm certain my life is better.
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Old 09-03-2011, 02:09 PM   #24
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Having said that, I think the Eagles will be very sorry they gave him that kind of contract. Hes the most injury prone QB in history and has the lowest career QB rating of any QB in history (with any significant playing time). One good year and they forgot all about that. Big mistake!
I know that all 3 of my posts are very tangential to the real issue, but it just bugs the hell out of me when people present "facts" simply aren't right.

According to pro-football-reference.com, Vick is #57 all time out of 230 QBs with enough passes to be listed, tied with Eli Manning and Hall of Famer Dan Fouts. He's #23 out of 38 active QBs. That's not great, but to say it's the lowest of all time, well, that's a big mistake too.

As far as injuries, he's had a broken leg and a rib injury. Lots of QBs are more injury prone.
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Old 09-03-2011, 03:04 PM   #25
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OK I exaggerated. Last time I looked he was at 75. Last season mustve boosted his numbers more than I thought. Now he's at 80.2 which in the modern era of the great passers is absolutely horrible. There are plenty of mediocre QBs ahead of him. Not counting last year hes had one year above 80 (at 81). Hes been a mediocre QB his whole career until last season. Now maybe he'll be much better under Andy Reid who is great with QBs, but I sure as heck wouldn't give anyone with his bland production and bland results team wise that kind of money.

Sure, he gets bonus points for his running ability but that's also what gets him hurt. Hes had more injuries than just the broken leg and rib injury.

Heres a list of QBs that were their teams starter the past 2 years and the percentage of games they started. Vick is 22nd out of 24 listed. I'd say tha'ts VERY injury prone and way to injury prone to pay a guy that kind of money. I love watching Vick play. Hes exciting, but in my opinion the Eagles made a huge mistake with that contract and very soon they will wish they hadn't done it.
How "injury prone" is Michael Vick, exactly? - Bleeding Green Nation
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Old 09-03-2011, 03:25 PM   #26
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Vick is now the 4th highest paid NFL player behind Peyton Manning, Sam Bradford and Tom Brady.

There is only one running QB that has EVER won a super bowl and thats Steve Young who also was a great passer. He used to have the highest career QB rating until recently.

Brees, Roethlisberger, E.Manning, P. Manning, Brady, B. Johnson, Dilfer, Warner, Elway (after he got older and stopped running), Favre, Aikman.....I could go on with the list of Super Bowl winning QBs, but they are all pocket passers. Some move around a lot but they aren't runners. If you follow football you know that no running QB who happens to be able to throw has ever won a Super Bowl.

Vick will never be able to beat a top defense. He doesnt read defenses well enough and isnt an accurate enough passer. He will never win a Super Bowl so assuming that's the goal, his contract is ridiculous.
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Old 09-03-2011, 03:35 PM   #27
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Brees, Roethlisberger, E.Manning, P. Manning, Brady, B. Johnson, Dilfer, Warner, Elway (after he got older and stopped running), Favre, Aikman.....I could go on with the list of Super Bowl winning QBs, but they are all pocket passers. Some move around a lot but they aren't runners. If you follow football you know that no running QB who happens to be able to throw has ever won a Super Bowl.

Vick will never be able to beat a top defense. He doesnt read defenses well enough and isnt an accurate enough passer. He will never win a Super Bowl so assuming that's the goal, his contract is ridiculous.
The NFL is a different animal than the college game. Defenses are too fast laterally to allow most running QBs to dominate the game as they can in college. Yes, you can be a good "mobile" QB (Young certainly was, and while Vick is not Steve Young, he's still pretty good) BUT you can't dominate strong NFL defenses with your legs.
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Old 09-03-2011, 03:59 PM   #28
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+1
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Old 09-03-2011, 05:52 PM   #29
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The NFL is a different animal than the college game. Defenses are too fast laterally to allow most running QBs to dominate the game as they can in college. Yes, you can be a good "mobile" QB (Young certainly was, and while Vick is not Steve Young, he's still pretty good) BUT you can't dominate strong NFL defenses with your legs.
Exactly my point. So how in the world do you make him the 4th highest paid player in the league? The highest paid players should be dominant guys who you need to win a Super Bowl. It would take all my fingers and some toes for me to count the QBs I would rather have on my team.
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Old 09-03-2011, 06:23 PM   #30
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I wouldn't stop him from earning a living. I just think of animal cruelty in the same way as child molesters- preying on helpless creatures. I think someone who can do that has a stone cold heart. Maybe that's what makes him a good football player. (I'm not a big football fan, sorry)
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Old 09-03-2011, 08:37 PM   #31
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I don't know much about dog fighting here in VA, but I don't think that's true. Vick's kennel was in the Hampton Roads area at the other end of the state, which is also around where he grew up. I googled and found other busts in Halifax County, Richmond, and South Boston, VA. None are that close to VA Tech.
I went to school down there, and there was definitely both dog and cock fighting going on. I read up on Vick some, and it does sound like he got into it down in Hampton Roads. Guess it's more widespread than I knew.
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Old 09-03-2011, 09:02 PM   #32
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I wouldn't stop him from earning a living. I just think of animal cruelty in the same way as child molesters- preying on helpless creatures. I think someone who can do that has a stone cold heart. Maybe that's what makes him a good football player. (I'm not a big football fan, sorry)
I've had personal experience with child molesters. The one who impacted my life distanced himself from the harm he caused. Rationalized it all away. I know I'll never be able to look at Vick in a detached manner. Yeah, I know animal abuse is not at the same level as child abuse but I do see a similar mindset - harming the helpless and trying to find a way to excuse the behavior. Or hide behind something good. That's what makes me distrustful of Vick. I've seen this before - trying to attach to a good cause to convince people they're cured or OK.
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Old 09-03-2011, 09:49 PM   #33
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Heres a list of QBs that were their teams starter the past 2 years and the percentage of games they started. Vick is 22nd out of 24 listed. I'd say tha'ts VERY injury prone and way to injury prone to pay a guy that kind of money. I love watching Vick play. Hes exciting, but in my opinion the Eagles made a huge mistake with that contract and very soon they will wish they hadn't done it.
How "injury prone" is Michael Vick, exactly? - Bleeding Green Nation
Funny thing, here's the last paragraph of that article:

While I agree that Vick is more likely to get injured than a QB with a quick release that never runs and rarely takes shots (like a Peyton Manning), I don't think "injury prone" is quite the correct phrase. I see "injury prone" players as the guys that always seem to find themselves as "questionable" in the injury report, with an assortment of ailments, kind of like our old friend Brian Westbrook. That doesn't really apply to Michael Vick, at least historically so far in his career. It's the season-ending knockout punch that should be of gravest concern, obviously.

But yes, I agree that they overpaid for him, by quite a bit.
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Old 09-03-2011, 11:19 PM   #34
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Vick is a piece of cr*p and always will be because my dog said so .
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Old 09-19-2011, 06:39 AM   #35
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What do you know? Vick got a concussion in game #2 and missed the 4th quarter of the game when they needed him desperately. The Eagles had to play a guy making his pro debut at QB. After 2 games hes the 13th highest ranked QB in the league (which is actually high for him). 4th highest paid player in the league? They are nuts. Overpaid and injury prone I say!
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Old 09-19-2011, 08:11 AM   #36
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What do you know? Vick got a concussion in game #2 and missed the 4th quarter of the game when they needed him desperately. The Eagles had to play a guy making his pro debut at QB. After 2 games hes the 13th highest ranked QB in the league (which is actually high for him). 4th highest paid player in the league? They are nuts. Overpaid and injury prone I say!
The QB ratings are seriously flawed. They don't count rushing yards and that is a big part of Vick's game. Vick is probably the single most dangerous threat on the field. Although he's back there to pass the ball you can never assume he'll pass. You always have to cover him as a runner as well which leaves less people to cover receivers. Yes, he is likely to be injured occasionaly. Most quarterbacks not named Favre or Manning are knocked out of games multiple times per year.
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Old 09-19-2011, 08:54 AM   #37
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I went to school down there, and there was definitely both dog and cock fighting going on. I read up on Vick some, and it does sound like he got into it down in Hampton Roads. Guess it's more widespread than I knew.
I think it very widespread Harley (like you said). When I lived in Charlottesville, Va. which is much farther west than Isle of Wight County where Vick is from, there were cock fights all the time. One farm actually had a cylindrical cock fighting arena on the property. I know because some med students rented rooms there and we would often "party" there.
I am from the Hampton Rhodes area. Vick AND his brother ...are considered thugs for the most part and were trouble makers from high school forward.
Say their names down here and everyone groans.

While he did his time...I have a problem with the "specialness" with which gifted athletes are treated. Our son, his girlfriend and some other friends were at a party at East Carolina University. One "star" starter for the ECU football team crashed the party and physically attacked this small group...in a stairwell. Our son and girlfriend were O.K. but others were hurt. He was arrested, pulled from the squad for "a few games". Our son had to appear in court and testify.....etc. but lo and behold...the guy was back playing games in no time.
I think what makes some of these guys great athletes is also what makes them a detriment to society. Not all....but some.
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Old 09-19-2011, 10:32 AM   #38
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The QB ratings are seriously flawed. They don't count rushing yards and that is a big part of Vick's game. Vick is probably the single most dangerous threat on the field. Although he's back there to pass the ball you can never assume he'll pass. You always have to cover him as a runner as well which leaves less people to cover receivers. Yes, he is likely to be injured occasionaly. Most quarterbacks not named Favre or Manning are knocked out of games multiple times per year.
Yes, he gets bonus points for his ability to run like no other QB, but when he leads a team to the Super Bowl, let me know. Thats when he will be worth a similar amount of money to Brady, Manning, Rodgers, Roethlisberger ect. If he cant do that then it doesnt matter how mouch he can run. If youre going to pay him elite money he has to get you deep into the playoffs and be a serious Super Bowl contender year in and year out.
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Old 09-19-2011, 10:38 AM   #39
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Most quarterbacks not named Favre or Manning are knocked out of games multiple times per year.
Aargh! Don't even mention Peyton Manning. I took him as my number one quarterback pick (round 4) in fantasy football this year, and he's already out, most likely for the season. I'm stuck with Matt Hasselback or Rex Grossman.

Michael Vick, as a running QB, is highly likely to get hurt on occasion. I'm hoping the Eagles management took that into account before paying him all that money. For some reason, known only to them, they think it's worth the risk. If he stays healthy he could very well take them to the Super Bowl this year. They look pretty good in general, although their defense doesn't seem to have gelled the way I thought they would. I don't particulalry like the Eagles anyway, except for when they beat the Redskins or the Cowboys.
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Old 09-19-2011, 10:47 AM   #40
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It is a free market system and if Vick can get the big bucks and pay back his debt he is doing better than a lot of other supposedly well heeled people. I don't condone his dog fighting but it is a culture he came from. He paid his debt to society and is trying to get his high life back. We are the idiots that make the big salaries possible for these spoiled adults.
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