Watching the trainwreck

[KM]

And what would you do if they broke every rule you had

What would you do if they stole some of your things and hocked them to get money


I am not saying the OP's son is here... but she has said that he does not follow the rules... simple as they are...

And the second example is from a friend of one of my sisters.... it was a brother that lived with him and stole... the brother brought charges against him and he was sent to jail (it was not his first time with brother or others in the family)...

The continuum is pretty long... the question is where on it the person is... and what will be your response to them...

I can say that as long as my kids are trying to get ahead... I will support them, house them and feed them... if they think they can go through life just being lazy on my couch.... they will learn that it will not happen...

If they broke every rule I had (or even one of them repeatedly - like, let's say, "GET A JOB AND PAY RENT"), then they would be choosing to live in their car (or wherever). I would not be making them. I gave them a choice.

As I said, I think we are in violent agreement.

 

[KM]

The problem I have with ever letting him move back in is that he doesn't want to follow rules. I guess I can't exclude the possibility that he would have a serious attitude adjustment.

This is one of those things where he decided he didn't need to call and ask so just lied to me and told me did.

He also tells me that his landlord says he can pay his rent any time before the end of the first 30 days

if he wasn't to call us and we could talk about what he could do

He just says OK, not a word of thanks or anything. Just really irritated me.

1) You might be surprised - he might do a 100% turnaround. Then again, he may not. But if he is not willing to live by your rules, yeah, I would suggest he find a way to make it some place where he doesn't need to follow your rules.

2) Been there. Took me a while to realize that the lies are because we harass them and they don't want to be bothered. In this case, I understand you dont want him to lose his car, because then how will he get to work? So then you will feel you will need to help him get another car. I have dealt with all of it. Let him figure it out. My son had to walk to work more than once because his car was broken and we would not allow him to drive our car without insurance. He actually asked the other night to borrow my car and the answer was the same as always "Do you have insurance? No? Then no, you can't."

3) LOL

4) Yeah, I used to do that a lot too - give them advice on how to handle things. Probably still do more than I should at times, because as a mother you really, really hope you are helping them. Over the bigger spectrum of things - I am not sure I ever did. I often suspect I just prolonged the hope and frustrated myself more. I can tell you my first reaction was to say "Don't help him here - let him figure out how to handle it. Surely he had a plan when he spent the $50." And then I realized how easy it is to say that - and how hard it is to do that when it is your child. But I really do think it would be better for him to figure out how to handle being $50 short.

5) Uh, yeah, that would really tick me off. More than anything else you have said - this is the one observation that would worry me the most. When kids don't appreciate what their parents have done/are doing for them - there is a serious disconnect in expectations.

Again - good luck - from the sounds of things, this won't turn around quickly - but the sooner he has to handle things on his own - the sooner he will realize you weren't talking just to hear yourself talk.

 

[Katsmeow]

When kids don't appreciate what their parents have done/are doing for them - there is a serious disconnect in expectations.

Again - good luck - from the sounds of things, this won't turn around quickly - but the sooner he has to handle things on his own - the sooner he will realize you weren't talking just to hear yourself talk.

Well, he is moved out now. I was actually at work today (work part time) and called home around noon. DH said that DS wasn't up yet and I knew he was supposed to move today so DH said he would check in with DS after we got off the phone. When he hung up, he found that DS left (without a word to anyone) while he was on the phone. His sister (she is his biological sister and adores him) said he walked out and was carrying something. All of that left us to wonder if he was leaving to move out, had he moved out, was he coming back to our house after work, etc. DH finally calls him this evening and he says he moved in and paid his rent. Where he got the $50 to do this I don't know. Probably his final paycheck from his old job. Of course, that leaves him about zero money until he gets paid from his new job which won't be for a week or two.

Feeling reflective about the whole thing, so much of this seems to be bound up in the adoption related issues. He was almost 9 when we adopted him and in many ways he never really deeply attached to us. This has been an ongoing issue for years (leading to lots of therapy for him which helped some). I remember when he was about 10 and he cried at having to do homework and said that if you had to grow up and work he would rather be dead. His bio dad had told him that when he came to America we would be rich and he wouldn't have to go to school and could play all the time. I'm not sure he ever got over the disappointment of finding out that wasn't true.

He only learns from his own negative experiences, won't listen to anyone else and won't ask anyone for help and from the beginning has had a very entitled attitude. So, I think that if he works through this he really has to do it on his own and there is about zero that we can do to help him.

 

[BigNick]

What good is served in society by arresting a young man for indecent exposure and giving him a record for life because he mooned someone?

+1, especially since IIRC in the case cited the kid was taking a leak, which last time I checked can be done in most cases without indecently exposing yourself.

FWIW, it is completely legal to take a leak anywhere you like in France, as long as you keep Mr Happy out of view. At our place of work, we sometimes have police officers patrolling across the street in case of demonstrations, and my wife can see the bushes where the officers themselves go to pee on occasion. (I'm sure it's not recommended practice for them, but still.)

One of the things I notice on my visits to the US is that, for the self-described freest country on Earth, there's a heck of a lot of things that you can't do, and a heck of a lot of signs telling you not to do stuff. Here in regulated, socialist Europe, we seem to manage just fine without being told what to do by law enforcement every ten minutes.

 

[chinaco]

In some cases, youthful indiscretions or past problems may cause someone difficulty getting a job.

It can be difficult and our culture (and big businesses) are not too forgiving (or willing to take the risk) about certain issues...

But in this country, if one is willing to work (and has some smarts and drive), they can start a small business. They do not have to aim to become a fortune 500 company. There are plenty of small business opportunities for people who are committed and their life will turn out fine.

The problem is that most people do not have drive, confidence or direction. This is where a young person in such a situation might need guidance about opportunities.


IMO - The best thing for someone who has little direction or self-discipline is a tour of duty in the military.

 

[travelover]

...........
One of the things I notice on my visits to the US is that, for the self-described freest country on Earth, there's a heck of a lot of things that you can't do, and a heck of a lot of signs telling you not to do stuff. Here in regulated, socialist Europe, we seem to manage just fine without being told what to do by law enforcement every ten minutes.

BigNick, I'm afraid that you foreigners just don't understand us Americans. You see, we all have guns and if we someday want the right to pee in the bushes, then we will take that right by force. The same is true for universal health care.

In the mean time, get off our lawn.

Hijack over.

 

[REWahoo]

One of the things I notice on my visits to the US is that, for the self-described freest country on Earth, there's a heck of a lot of things that you can't do, and a heck of a lot of signs telling you not to do stuff.

Seeing as how you couldn't legally pee in the street here in the US, I'm guessing you saw a lot of these and that's what you're referring to:

 

[Texas Proud]

If they broke every rule I had (or even one of them repeatedly - like, let's say, "GET A JOB AND PAY RENT"), then they would be choosing to live in their car (or wherever). I would not be making them. I gave them a choice.

As I said, I think we are in violent agreement.

Yes... I wanted to learn what Katsmeow thought... she had a post with something like she can not agree with having them sleep in their car (I do not want to go back and look)...

I try to give my kids choices... and to let them know what will happen if they break a rule... my son is mad at me because one rule before we bought the XBox is that all homework had to be done and grades can not suffer... one of his grades dropped to a low 'B'... and it should be an 'A'... so, I said he can not play until his grade gets back to an 'A'.. he complained to mom that he had paid a lot toward the game and he can not play it... I talked to him this morning and reminded him of the rule.. asked him who caused the problem of him not playing etc. etc... he knows.. and he knew it was him... still, I get to be the 'bad guy' enforcing the rule.....

Sooo... I hope I do not get to the point of the OP... but I am willing to suffer the 'bad guy' role if need be... since she is the mom.. she can be the buffer... but if she were my wife I would hope she did not go behind my back and help out DS even after we gave all the chances he has been given...

 

[Texas Proud]

Katsmeow.....

At least the learning has begun.....

But I will say that you might have to accept that your DS is on his way to breaking all ties with you.... I am not saying it is anybody's fault... but there are people on this board who say they do not speak to their family or parents... so it happens...

My oldest brother has basically left our family... we are not sure why.. he never did fit in that well, but he is very smart and make great money... so that is not the problem... but a few years ago he just stopped coming to family holidays.. one of my sisters called him a couple of years ago and wanted to know if he was coming for Christmas (as he had missed the previous two)... his respone... 'it is to late and nobody asked me'... she responded 'Christmas is the same time every year and you are always welcome'...

This last year he has stopped calling up our mother that much... she calls and calls and leaves messages... but will only get a response maybe once in three months...


Soooo, even though we have a blood attachement... he has left the family... your DS does not have the DNA attachement... so who knows...

Just wanted to give you a possibility..

 

[Nords]

IMO - The best thing for someone who has little direction or self-discipline is a tour of duty in the military.

As long as I never have to serve with them.

But if they don't have direction or self-discipline then they won't make it through recruit training anyway.

Maybe during the conscription days, the military was a magic motivating machine. But I'm not sure how someone who lacks direction or motivation would pursue the whole process of volunteering and then getting through the basics.

The key is finding something that motivates them. Plenty of other "non-profit" service organizations in the world will pay a stipend for service, and they don't necessarily depend on access to firearms or explosives.

 

[Westernskies]

As long as I never have to serve with them.

But if they don't have direction or self-discipline then they won't make it through recruit training anyway.

Maybe during the conscription days, the military was a magic motivating machine. But I'm not sure how someone who lacks direction or motivation would pursue the whole process of volunteering and then getting through the basics.

The key is finding something that motivates them. Plenty of other "non-profit" service organizations in the world will pay a stipend for service, and they don't necessarily depend on access to firearms or explosives.

Agree, Nords. While the military can certainly instill self-discipline and turn some kids around, we shouldn't use it as a de-facto dumping ground for those with more serious issues. But you are right in that the military is pretty good at weeding them out. My nephew, for example, a [-]lazy, disrespectful, lying, pot-smoking, liberal, druggie loser[/-] good 24-year old kid who is still trying to find himself, couldn't even make it through boot camp. (He was smarter than all the DI's and other recruits put together, and didn't belong there, to hear him tell it...) I believe the boy genius is now sleeping on a friends couch, washing dishes (or cars, I can't keep up) part-time , when he isn't getting fired for not showing up.

While I'm disappointed he blew a good chance to turn his life around, I'm really glad he never made it to a situation where others had to depend on him. Kudos to the US Army for recognizing he wasn't management material and suggesting an alternative career path...

"Got in a little home-town jam, so they put a rifle in my hands,
Sent me off to a foreign land, to go and kill the yellow man"
Bruce Springsteen

 

[HFWR]

My nephew, for example, a [-]lazy, disrespectful, lying, pot-smoking, liberal, druggie loser[/-]...

Uncle Westernskies?

I am not a liberal...

 

[FinanceDude]

Disclaimer: No kids

Gotcha!

Announcement: I never tell parents what they should do with their kids. At least not within firing distance.

Some of the best advice has come from folks with no kids, and also some of the WORST advice too...........

 

[DangerMouse]

I hope that sometime in the future you can post an update to this thread detailing a happy ending for all involved.

I'm not a parent, however I know when I had fantasies of motherhood they all involved the perfect child. There are lots of postings on this thread that indicate that despite best efforts things can turn out very differently than expected.

 

[grasshopper]

Hurry up and change the locks.

 

[Letj]

One of the things I notice on my visits to the US is that, for the self-described freest country on Earth, there's a heck of a lot of things that you can't do, and a heck of a lot of signs telling you not to do stuff. Here in regulated, socialist Europe, we seem to manage just fine without being told what to do by law enforcement every ten minutes.

My sentiments exactly!!

 

[Gumby]

The United States is the only country in the Western World and the world for that matter that is so unforgiving and draconian in it's law enforcement efforts, especially when it comes to young people. It does not consider the folly of youth which is sad indeed. There are otherwise good people who can have their entire lives ruined because of one bad judgment.

Well, a lot depends on whether that foolish youth is rich or poor. The rich ones get many more second chances than the poor ones do.

 

[bright eyed]

IMO - The best thing for someone who has little direction or self-discipline is a tour of duty in the military.

Have you seen the report "Ready, Willing and Unable to Serve" showing 75 percent of youth aren't even elegible due to a myriad of problems...including overweight, drugs, and other problems... The military is often seen as a good opportunity for many, but it is apparently not an option for way more then I ever expected...

 

[Mulligan]

Yes, there simply isn't a rule that applies to everyone. After my first year of college I came home. If my father had tossed me out things may have gone very badly for me. I still did stupid things, but I got turned around and started college again a year later. If I had been tossed out I have this vision of me being a hippie druggie, wandering my way to warmer climes, and maybe doing something risky enough that I did not survive or being damaged enough that I never could put my life together. But who knows. I just feel lucky that I made it through a couple of really bad years.

I am encouraged that the OP's son is not a drug user. Her strategy seems reasonable, but I don't know her son.

I dont know the "right" answer but being in education for 25 years, for over 1/2 the kids I knew, the difference between a "good" kid and a "bad" kid is the bad kid gets caught! I have a spotless record, but if the police put a "mind scanner" on my brain and go back to my younger days, I would be coughing up some fine money and maybe having to pick up some trash along the highway for community service

 

[Katsmeow]

Yes... I wanted to learn what Katsmeow thought... she had a post with something like she can not agree with having them sleep in their car (I do not want to go back and look)...

Well, not exactly I don't think. When DS said he would rather sleep in his car than follow our rules, I felt I had 3 choices of what to do. I could try to talk him out of it and coax him to stay. But I knew he really didn't want to follow our rules and I didn't want to fight with him about it. So, we just accepted his view on that. We weren't even angry although we felt he hasn't demonstrated much maturity to be able to support himself (hence the expected trainwreck).

The second choice was to say, OK, and tell him to leave penniless and throw him out. I think that DH would have been OK with that in some ways. He isn't mad at DS but doesn't think it is our job to support him or provide financial help when he isn't in school. He would still, btw, let DS live with us if DS was paying rent, working (or going to school) and following our rules.

The third choice was to say, OK, and recognize that we were in effect "launching" him (well maybe he was launching himself). If he had finished college and had no money, I would probably help with any child of mine in effect setting up his/her household. I don't think it is required but I would probably want to do that. So I felt that helping him with his deposit and a few month's rent and a few incidentals (totaling about $1600) was reasonable to show well wishes to him. I looked at his budget and with that money if he works and is frugal he can make it. It is [-]likely[/-] possible that he won't be that frugal and he could then end up living in his car due to his choices. At that point, I wouldn't feel that I needed to bail him out.

Katsmeow.....

At least the learning has begun.....

But I will say that you might have to accept that your DS is on his way to breaking all ties with you.... I am not saying it is anybody's fault... but there are people on this board who say they do not speak to their family or parents... so it happens...
..

Well, I know that can happen although I hope that it won't. DH has a brother that I've met in the almost 20 years we've been married because he (the brother) broke ties with most family and moved across the country (does still have some contact with his kids). But, recently DH came across him on Facebook and they are now Facebook friends...

 

[Katsmeow]

A view from the front...almost 2 weeks later:

So after he moved out on 1/25, we didn't hear anything until 2/1. We had told him he needed to pay us for his January cell phone bill ($53 or so because he had somehow signed up for two $10 a month recurring charges that he had no idea how they got on there). If he didn't we were going to cancel the contract on 2/2 before our bill rolled over to a new period a few days later.

DH expected that he would ignore the deadline and then be upset when we cancelled. Well, DS actually texted me on the evening of 2/1 saying he knew he owed us for the phone but his employer is now paying people with a cash card so he had to figure out how to get money.

The next day he says he only got paid for one week's work (he had switched jobs) and wanted to pay us when he gets his next check. DH and I talked about it and decided that since he actually contacted us to address this (rather than ignoring it as typical) we would give him until his next paycheck to pay it.

So we tell him that and then he wants to know if his W-2's arrived in the mail. He wanted to get them and take them someplace to get his taxes done so he can get his refund in a couple of days and pay his phone bill.

I called him and told him it was a big idea to get a refund loan if that was what he had in mind. I told him I could prepare his return and efile it and he could get a refund fairly quickly. He agreed to come buy to see how I did it (so he can learn how to do it).

So today he calls me to come over and asks me if we can deposit his rent money for the 2nd months rent today. I pointed out we had said we would deposit it a few days before it was due (so he would have no temptation to spend it) and surely it isn't due until around the 25th. He says that his landlord is going out of town so he was going to pay it early. I asked him when she was leaving (tomorrow) and how long she will be gone (one week). I tell him that it sounds like she will be back well before his rent is due so I see no reason to give it to him early. He suggests that well he could just pay his rent early anyway....

In some ways, I'm almost insulted that he must think I'm an idiot...


So, today he shows up and he is distressed to find out that one of his W-2s isn't here (it seem the employer likely sent it to the dorm where he doesn't live any more). It is clear that he isn't happy that he has to get it before filing his tax return (he is getting a refund of a few hundred dollars).

I am pretty sure I know what his big pressure is. His rent isn't due until the 25th. But about 5 days earlier his auto insurer is going to want to debit him about $150 for his auto insurance. I'm guessing that without the refund he doesn't have insurance money.

He still has his part time job and is working fairly good hours and has had a second interview for a better job at a restaurant so that is good. But it is fairly clear he is running out of money by not being very frugal. He drove out of town this morning to go to his old high school's bowling game so used a lot of gas on that. He told me that when not working or sleeping he spends most of his time visiting his friend (who was with him when he came by) or bowling (something else to spend money on).

 

[Texas Proud]

Kats,

Check to see if you can get his W-2 online... I use the H&R block and it asks info to download the numbers...

Since you are efiling you do not need the actual paper if you know the numbers...


But.... if it were me I would let this 'lesson' play itself out... maybe it would change his thinking quicker than you had thought...

 

[jayc]

It sounds like he is slowly getting educated by the school of hard knocks. My youngest son was also more concerned with moving out and getting an aprtment than the big picture and long range goal of getting an education and marketable skill set. He is now in the 5th year of a 2 year program to get his Associate Degree. A $50-100 bill and unexpected late paycheck is enough of a cash flow problem to bring their fragile house of cards crashing down. These kids need to follow a budget in the worst way because spending even $20 can start a chain of events that leads to eviction or loss of driving(no insurance) or then loss of job (no transportation).

Maybe start a tab with a $200-300 limit for when he needs to borrow $50. Let him work it off with tasks that need done around your house or pay it back with $. Lay out the terms and conditions just like an employeer would if he had a 2nd job. Pay him 25% more than he makes at his current job.

You will look back at these problems with fond memory if he gets caught up in the legal system and you need to put a lawyer on the payroll.

 

[KM]

As strange as it may sound, it is good news that he is at least thinking of the bills that are coming due. He is ahead of those that don't even do that.

But as jayc said, he simply doesn't understand or refuses to recognize that life does not go as we plan. W-2s get mismailed, paychecks come late, we get billed for more than we planned, cars break down when we least expect it, etc, etc. He may finally figure this out after being bit a few times - but we all know plenty of adults that never have. At one point when my son was telling me how capable he was in taking care of himself, I asked him what he intended to do when his car needed new tires. He just looked at me blankly....like "what are tires?" I guess he thought the tire fairy would replace them....

Thanks for the update.

 

[bright eyed]

At one point when my son was telling me how capable he was in taking care of himself, I asked him what he intended to do when his car needed new tires. He just looked at me blankly....like "what are tires?" I guess he thought the tire fairy would replace them....

That's a funny one. My son has an old car and bought used tires the first round after one went flat. Then several months later low and behold they were nearly bald.

I took him outside and pointed at the tires. I said what would happen to you if those were your basketball shoes? He said "I'd slide around" - I said, exactly. You can't drive around in that car, especially if it rains.

I told him I'd loan him the money for a good pair of new tires that would last him quadruple the time the used ones were and would end up costing him less, but he thought about it and decided to go used again because he didn't want to owe me the money. I was proud he made the decision but reminded him he'd clearly need a new set within 6 months given how long these used tires were lasting him...in other good news he has received 2 raises and just got an award for doing really well at work which must feel really amazing for someone who was used to struggling in school and in other areas.

Katsmeow - hang in there!