Where is the Bible Belt exactly?

[ERD50]

.... (quite a contrast to the tacky tacky tacky elements of Myrtle Beach ...

Ahhh, good to hear that from someone in the region. We've been to Myrtle Beach twice, both times to visit friends & family, most recently just a few weeks ago.

Had a good time both times, but it was because of the company, and having a house on or very near the beach. Once you get out, the tackiness was unsettling. Kind of reminded me about what is bad about the Chicago suburbs, with none of the good, and no Chicago either.

I'd love to visit the other, more "real" areas sometime, but they would probably spot my devil horns a mile way

edit/add - just curious, to the "church" question, could you get away with "Oh thank you for asking, but I prefer quiet, personal reflection in matters of the spirit", and then show some polite interest in their church? Or would they spot the devil horns?

-ERD50

 

[W2R]

edit/add - just curious, to the "church" question, could you get away with "Oh thank you for asking, but I prefer quiet, personal reflection in matters of the spirit", and then show some polite interest in their church? Or would they spot the devil horns?

If the person asking was genuinely interested in your spiritual peace and nothing more, then sure, that would work. In small towns in the South, that usually isn't what the question is about. The church is a center of social connection, not just spirituality, and also you are labeled by what church you go to. When you are new in town, your church will give you a social context in which people can relate to you. Also, you are demonstrating that you aren't a complete heathen.

Last year we went to our first open house in Springfield. It was a FSBO that we saw driving by. The owner wanted to converse with us as we toured the house, and the first thing she asked was what church we would be going to. We told her we really don't go to church as often as we used to. (No need to try to avoid church invitations, since we don't live there yet.) She wasn't terribly shocked, because we didn't say "we are agnostic and wouldn't be caught dead in church" or something like that. ("Devil horns! Devil horns!" ) Asking about church is just a polite way of striking up a conversation so if you answer politely, you don't get labeled with the devil horns.

Other than attending weddings or funerals, I haven't been to church or religious service for about 45 years. But, I have lived in the South during much of that time and have had no problems. Just keep your religious differences close to the chest, maintain an attitude of respect towards others' religions, be polite, and learn to skillfully change the subject after a short time and all will be well.

 

[alvarezg]

When driving into town, the "Jesus is Coming" billboard tells me I'm in it...

 

[FUEGO]

I've lived in North Carolina for 4 years and have never gotten "what church do you belong to?" Maybe people can sense that I'm a Yankee or they just don't like me

Must be the specific area you live and work in! That area is not known for high levels of religious zeal (at least of the protestant Christian variety). Raleigh is similar - plenty of relocated yankees to tone down the religious fervor.

But in some circles in Raleigh, failure to go to church is a huge sign of moral failure and personal shortcomings. To name 2 circles: the good ole boy network, and poor uneducated people.

As others have said - best to keep the secret close to the chest unless you are in company that you either don't care what their opinions are or know that they are okay with your "deviant lifestyle choices".

As an example, I occasionally have to testify under oath on professional matters at public meetings and quasi-judicial administrative hearings. I must be sworn in as a matter of law for my testimony to be valid. Down here in the South, the Bible (King James Version - make no mistake!) is busted out, and you put your hand on it and you raise your other hand and you swear on it that you aren't going to lie, so help you God (the protestant Christian one - make no mistake!). I just could not imagine asking a mayor or head of a city council to not swear on the Bible and instead affirm w/o bible (even though I am 100% legally entitled to do so per 1st Amdt rights and maybe even state law). This would prejudice me in front of all the elected representatives, and my clients would probably pull me aside afterward and ask me what the hell was I doing! These meetings/hearings are occasionally televised and with my luck, I'd be the 8 second sound byte featured on the 5 o'clock news. And typically some of the elected representatives run in the professional circles I run in, or at least run in the same circles as people that know me, so some things are best kept secret. Not good to have a reputation in the community as a devil worshipping atheist!

In contrast, when being sworn in for jury duty, I refused to swear on the bible because I'm just there representing me and in relative anonymity. I did get a lot of strange looks though. Guess they were staring at my devil horns!

State law requires swearing in to be done on the "Holy Scriptures". Recent court decisions have interpreted that to also include other religious texts besides the KJV of the Holy Bible. Our state constitution still prohibits anyone who denies the existence of an Almighty God from holding office (clearly unconstitutional to actually enforce this though).

 

[BunsGettingFirm]

OK, but don't you find all the tip toeing around certain questions exhausting?

 

[2soon2tell]

To me the bible belt roughly follows what I call the grit line. South of this line its grits for breakfast and to the north its hash browns. Hows that for geography.

2soon

 

[FUEGO]

OK, but don't you find all the tip toeing around certain questions exhausting?

Not sure if this question was directed specifically at me or to everyone.

But personally, yes I do. I do it to maintain a certain expected professional reputation and demeanor that is rather financially beneficial to me. No different than dressing appropriately, showering, and other personal hygiene routines.

 

[simple girl]

OK, but don't you find all the tip toeing around certain questions exhausting?

Not sure if this question was directed specifically at me or to everyone.

But personally, yes I do. I do it to maintain a certain expected professional reputation and demeanor that is rather financially beneficial to me. No different than dressing appropriately, showering, and other personal hygiene routines.

Me, too. Even though I am religious, I don't agree with the beliefs held by the majority here. Best just to play along. Most of the time people mean well and are truly trying to be helpful. I'm just a more private person regarding faith, and it really took me back at first.

 

[FIREd]

OK, but don't you find all the tip toeing around certain questions exhausting?

Not really. I have to know people pretty well before I feel comfortable sharing my religious or political views with them. So, even if I shared the majority's beliefs, I would still exercise much caution while confiding in someone I did not know personally.

But when pressed for an answer, I just say catholic (I grew up in a catholic family, went through Sunday schools and all the necessary confirmations as a kid, so I consider myself catholic even if I don't practice anymore). Not great, but one step up from devil worshiper as far as lots of people down here are concerned . Add to that a French sounding name and some liberal "tendencies", and it makes many people question my choice of residence. But I love the South...

 

[W2R]

Not really. I have to know people pretty well before I feel comfortable sharing my religious or political views with them. So, even if I shared the majority's beliefs, I would still exercise much caution while confiding in someone I did not know personally.

But when pressed for an answer, I just say catholic (I grew up in a catholic family, went through Sunday schools and all the necessary confirmations as a kid, so I consider myself catholic even if I don't practice anymore). Not great, but one step up from devil worshiper as far as lots of people down here are concerned . Add to that a French sounding name and some liberal "tendencies", and it makes many people question my choice of residence. But I love the South...

Catholic? French sounding name? Liberal "tendencies"? Love the South? Sounds like you would feel right at home in New Orleans.

 

[haha]

Religion Helps When You Are Hurting

YouTube - The Stanley Brothers - Somebody touched me.

 

[RedHawk]

Liberal "tendencies"? Love the South? Sounds like you would feel right at home in New Orleans.

I thought the New Orleans area (minus inner-city) was pretty conservative.

 

[W2R]

Not really. I have to know people pretty well before I feel comfortable sharing my religious or political views with them. So, even if I shared the majority's beliefs, I would still exercise much caution while confiding in someone I did not know personally.

But when pressed for an answer, I just say catholic (I grew up in a catholic family, went through Sunday schools and all the necessary confirmations as a kid, so I consider myself catholic even if I don't practice anymore). Not great, but one step up from devil worshiper as far as lots of people down here are concerned . Add to that a French sounding name and some liberal "tendencies", and it makes many people question my choice of residence. But I love the South...

Catholic? French sounding name? Liberal "tendencies"? Love the South? Sounds like you would feel right at home in New Orleans.

I thought the New Orleans area (minus inner-city) was pretty conservative.

The City of New Orleans (Orleans Parish) had a population of 450,000 before Katrina, and around 300,000 now, is racially diverse, votes Democratic, and is generally much more liberal than the surrounding and contiguous suburbs that make up most of the New Orleans metro area. The French Quarter, in particular, is known for its acceptance and embrace of nonconformist, hippie, artist, street musician, and gay lifestyles among others. We not only have Mardi Gras, we also welcome and host other absolutely huge festivals such as Southern Decadence celebrating gays and the Essence Festival which is mainly attended by blacks. And then we have art festivals such as White Linen Night on Julia Street, and music festivals such as Jazzfest. New Orleans is well known for its predominant Catholicism and for our usage of French. Many of our residents are of French Creole ancestry and bear French names. And New Orleans is deeply proud of its southern roots. The huge statue of Robert E. Lee in Lee Circle is a New Orleans landmark, and Confederate flags are very commonly displayed on mansions and hovels alike.

Come visit sometimes.

 

[CuppaJoe]

Please don't take offence, but back when I travelled throughout the US courtesy of mega-corp, I always thought that the 'Bible-Belt' started at the 49th parallel. Anything south was Bible-Belt.

None taken here. I've been unable to read much of this thread but was thinking about my experiences in a state that borders Canada. The small hometown had numerous churches and there came a time when my city parents [-]had to[/-] found it advantageous to join a church and tithe.... Then I moved to the state capital and got close to some folks who happened to be fundamentalist; very nice people but we have been skirting the religious issue for 44 years. They moved to a sun belt area which is also loaded with fundamentalist churches and their daughter and family moved to an area that is unarguably "bible belt."

So what's the scoop in Canada?

 

[RedHawk]

The City of New Orleans (Orleans Parish) had a population of 450,000 before Katrina, and around 300,000 now, is racially diverse, votes Democratic, and is generally much more liberal than the surrounding and contiguous suburbs that make up most of the New Orleans metro area. The French Quarter, in particular, is known for its acceptance and embrace of nonconformist, hippie, artist, street musician, and gay lifestyles among others. We not only have Mardi Gras, we also welcome and host other absolutely huge festivals such as Southern Decadence celebrating gays and the Essence Festival which is mainly attended by blacks. And then we have art festivals such as White Linen Night on Julia Street, and music festivals such as Jazzfest. New Orleans is well known for its predominant Catholicism and for our usage of French. Many of our residents are of French Creole ancestry and bear French names. And New Orleans is deeply proud of its southern roots. The huge statue of Robert E. Lee in Lee Circle is a New Orleans landmark, and Confederate flags are very commonly displayed on mansions and hovels alike.

I grew up in one of the suburbs of New Orleans and as you said it was much more conservative than the downtown/French Quarter area. Also I went to one of the many Catholic schools/high schools so I was around a pretty conservative bunch most the time.

 

[W2R]

I grew up in one of the suburbs of New Orleans.

Well, then I am sure that if that was not too terribly long ago, then you know that what I posted in answering your question is factual. Your suburb was different, but I guess that is another topic. A lot of us living in the older suburbs feel like we live in New Orleans; I know I do and probably you did too. Which high school did you attend? Frank is Catholic but happened to attend a non-Catholic school. But just about everybody at my work sends their kids to Catholic school, whether they are Catholic or not, for various reasons. Frank was born and raised in the French Quarter, though I am a transplant. This is my second decade living here, and before that I lived in Baton Rouge. Like your suburb, Baton Rouge is very different, as well.

 

[ScooterGuy]

Look for the bumper stickers

If you see, "Convert, Jew, or die!" "The Bible said it, I believe it and that settles it!" "I believe everything that Jesus said, in the language he spoke ... King James English" ... on the same car bumper, you're probably in the Bible Belt.

Then turn on your car radio, to the AM band. Count the number of screaming, shrieking men who are cursing you for being a sinner, to burn eternally in the Lake of Fire and Brimstone if you don't send them large amounts of money immediately. If you get more than 12, it's a good bet you're in the Bible belt.

I was a professor at a small university for 2 years there (Abilene, Texas -- The Buckle on the Bible Belt) and, to this day, I'm not sure why I got the job ... how I survived the 1st year ... and why they renewed me for the 2nd year.

 

[Orchidflower]

I couldn't stand it. When Lakewood Church bought the huge Summit aka Compaq Center in the middle of Houston close to where my home in Bellaire (like a mile away near the Houston Galleria), I knew it was time to get the heck out of there. Just was too much for me. (FYI: Bellaire is in the middle of Houston. Houston built around Bellaire. It's by the Galleria where the main shopping is in Houston. Don't ask..very strange situation down there.)
Something like 20% of Americans are non-believers now isn't it?

 

[kumquat]

So what's the scoop in Canada?

I think Canada is fairly secular. While we have our share of religious people, religion is not the first thing people talk about. In fact, it's about the last thing people talk about. Our politicians don't have to make a show of church attendance at election time, although there are those who run to impose their religious views on society as a whole. Fortunately most do not get elected. Unfortunately, those who do, live near me.

We do get the LDS and JW on our doorsteps though.

 

[FUEGO]

An interesting example of the public opinion on atheism in the south can be seen in North Carolina's senatorial race of 2008 between Kay Hagan and the incumbent Elizabeth Dole (Bob Dole's DW).

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Atheists:

In late October 2008, incumbent North Carolina Senator Elizabeth Dole released a controversial television ad attacking one of her opponents, Kay Hagan, for reportedly attending fundraisers held by and taking donations from individuals involved in the Godless Americans PAC. The ad also included a voice saying, "There is no God." The Dole campaign said the ad correctly shows who Hagan will associate with in order to raise campaign funds, and on November 1, Dole's husband Bob Dole also defended it, asserting that "it never questions her faith," and that "the issue is why she was there. There's no question about her faith. I think it's [the ad's] fair game."

Hagan, who is a lifelong member of First Presbyterian Church of Greensboro and a former Sunday school teacher, condemned the ad as "fabricated and pathetic." Hagan also filed a lawsuit in Wake County, North Carolina Superior Court accusing Dole of defamation and libel.

The ad has met exceptionally strong criticism from the public as well as many local and several national media outlets. CNN's Campbell Brown said about the ad: "[A]mid all the attack ads on the airwaves competing to out-ugly one another, we think we've found a winner." The ad has been described as "ridiculously outrageous," "indecent," a "gross misrepresentation," "worse than dishonest" and "beyond the bounds of acceptable political disagreement," among other harsh criticism. Another ad issued by the Dole campaign in mid-October 2008 was described by The Fayetteville Observer as "[setting] the low mark in negative political campaigning."

Dole lost by a wider-than-expected margin, taking only 44% of the vote to Hagan's 53% – the widest margin for a Senate race in North Carolina in 30 years, and the largest margin of defeat for an incumbent Senator in the 2008 cycle. It has been speculated that the outcry over the "Godless" ad contributed to Dole's loss.

Here's the Atheist Ethicist blogger's take on it, which parallels my thinking. What is interesting is the politically expedient manner in which Hagan responds to attacks that says she associates with atheist groups. She doesn't take the moral high ground and say that atheists are citizens of North Carolina and deserve equal representation along with people of all faiths, beliefs, and non-beliefs. Instead she accuses her opponent Dole of defamation and libel because clearly associating with people who don't believe in the concept of god is something that is harmful to one's reputation.

 

[haha]

IMO atheists are on indefensible ground. They positively assert that there is no god, not that there is no proof that there is a god.

If an atheist were to to live eternally and experience every possibility that the universe might offer, he would still be wrong to make this assertion; as how would he know that god was not just around the corner?

Ha

 

[HFWR]

Then turn on your car radio, to the AM band. Count the number of screaming, shrieking men who are cursing you for being a sinner, to burn eternally in the Lake of Fire and Brimstone if you don't send them large amounts of money immediately. If you get more than 12, it's a good bet you're in the Bible belt.

I was a DJ at a small town radio station in the rural midwest, circa 1973. Sunday morning programming featured various pentacostal churches doing "live" sermons, along with some good, old gospel singing. It was a real hoot...

Luckily, once I got each segment started, I could turn down the sound, and listen to satanic rock and roll on the studio monitors...

 

[FUEGO]

Ha,

I'm sure most intelligent atheists are technically very slightly agnostic. I mean, we really don't know for sure that god does or does not exist. With the right amount of proof, I'd believe. So I'm technically agnostic. But aren't all of us technically agnostic?

Atheism, construed broadly, doesn't conclusively make a positive assertion that god does not exist. Rather that the empirical evidence doesn't point to the existence of any deities. Atheism is the absence of belief in the existence of deities. There are clearly logical problems with making conclusive statements like "god does not exist". I could no sooner prove it conclusively than I could prove that there exists nowhere in the ever-expanding universe a teapot labeled "Haha" on the bottom.

 

[haha]

Ha,

I'm sure most intelligent atheists are technically very slightly agnostic. I mean, we really don't know for sure that god does or does not exist. With the right amount of proof, I'd believe. So I'm technically agnostic.

Atheism, construed broadly, doesn't conclusively make a positive assertion that god does not exist. Rather that the empirical evidence doesn't point to the existence of any deities. Atheism is the absence of belief in the existence of deities. There are clearly logical problems with making conclusive statements like "god does not exist". I could no sooner prove it conclusively than I could prove that there exists nowhere in the ever-expanding universe a teapot labeled "Haha" on the bottom.

Fuego, I guess I was wrong. I have never been very interested in the topic, but it was always explained to me that what you are describing is called agnosticism. In your paradigm, how is an atheist different from an agnostic?

Here is a recent book from Richard Dawkins, a scientist who has become kind of a poster boy for atheism. Pretty strong title for someone who is not making a positive assertion that god does not exist: Amazon.com: The God Delusion: Richard Dawkins: Books



Ha

 

[FUEGO]

Here is a recent book from Richard Dawkins, a scientist who has become kind of a poster boy for atheism. Pretty strong title for someone who is not making a positive assertion that god does not exist: Amazon.com: The God Delusion: Richard Dawkins: Books

I'm not making the assertion that no atheist has ever asserted that god does not exist without a doubt. I'm sure some have.

In regards to Mr. Dawkins book that you referenced, he actually outlines in the book the continuum of belief in god on a scale of 1 to 7, 1 being completely a faithful believer and 7 being a complete atheist (or I may have the 7 and 1 reversed). Mr. Dawkins says in this book that he is technically an agnostic (something like a 6.99), since one can never truly conclusively know for 100% certain that god does not exist. He allows the possibility, with strong enough evidence, that god exists. Basically the same beliefs that I have. With incredible claims should come irrefutable evidence.

The God Delusion was actually a great, well written book. Very interesting if you are into theology, religion, or apologetics (and on either side of the debate). This particular book was a good, easy, quick read, unlike some of Mr. Dawkins' other works focused more on evolutionary biology that were pretty heavy on the science and info (yet interesting and rewarding once read). It comes highly recommended regardless of religious affiliation. But you probably won't agree with everything he says (I don't either).


If someone told me they were an agnostic, I would assume that their mind is not made up whether they believe in god. They are unsure. They have reviewed the evidence in support of the existence of god and cannot come to a conclusion as to whether to believe or disbelieve. Contrast that with the atheist that does not express a belief in god. I'm sure many claim agnosticism out of convenience. It doesn't sound as harsh as "atheist". They can always say to the evangelist "well, you might be right".

From my point of view, god either exists or he doesn't exist. My (or your or anyone's) subjective belief in god doesn't alter the reality of his existence or nonexistence.

And arguing about the existence or nonexistence of god does not address the question of whether good things can come from religion.

Back to your statement from an earlier post: "[Atheists] positively assert that there is no god, not that there is no proof that there is a god."

I think the response there is that the atheist sees no proof in favor of the hypothesis that there is a god (clearly great minds have disagreed over this point). And in the absence of any evidence to believe that there is a god, one must logically reject the hypothesis that there is a god based on the evidence. The rejection of the hypothesis of god could always be reexamined in light of new evidence, which is why I think all intelligent atheists are technically agnostic, if ever so slightly.