Worried sick over UPENN student

[JPatrick]

When DS did his clinicals he had a fair number of locations to chose from. I can't say safety was high on his list of criteria, but it could have been. He did an EM clinical in Brooklym solely for the action, and he had plenty. All the locations did a fine job of getting the students oriented, in fact some appointed a sponsor for them. I would find some way to insist something like that is done.
Other than that, I agree with the safety measures that have been expressed here. Important that she realizes that it can happen to her.

 

[jollystomper]

Ihave not read the entire thread, but I have 2 close relatives who are doctors.both were medical students in Philly and interned at Cooper in Camden. My niece is barely 5' tall. They had no issues while they were there. The key as others have said is to maintain a good awareness of your surroundings. In addition, neither were the "party type", or drinkers, so rarely were they out and about after dark and never by themselves. If they were on a late/overnight shift they partnered with someone. I also do not know if this is still the case, but at Cooper the parking garage was patrolled 24/7 and there were escorts who would walk anyone to their car if they felt unsafe.

The majority of criminals in a seeking a victim are trying to use the element of surprise. If one stays aware of ones surroundings that greatly reduces the threat.

Another little thing is to act like you are familiar with the area, do not act like a tourist. A funny but serious story: During college I worked in Manhattan one summer. One evening I happened to be walking from work when I saw a friend of mine from college get off a bus. She was from a small town. She started walking down the street, staring up at the tall buildings, mouth agape. I easily snuck up behind her and grabbed her by the shoulders. She jumped and turned - and I told her: "Rule number one: DO NOT LOOK UP AT THE TALL BUILDINGS! Rule number two: pay attention to who is around you!" she got the message.

 

[Nemo2]

Although there are, of course, exceptions, the general rule for predators, both animal and human, is that they're looking for a score, not a fight.

 

[Closet_Gamer]

I work in Philly and have taken train in/out of the city nearly every biz day for 12 years. I've seen ONE violent act in 12 years (someone got punched).

I've been treated at Jefferson Hospital. Area looks a bit more ragged than it is.

A good friend of mine teaches at the Univ of the Sciences which is right near Penn. all of his kids have lived on campus there for years. No issues.

Yes, Camden can be rough. Have to use her head but I'm sure she'll be fine.

 

[omni550]

OP Again. I'm her dad, I know many assume due to the worry I'm the mom, but I get tasked with sorting out solutions for all the family difficulties.

I tend to agree we can't count on the school to take on the safety of the kids. The first semester they sent her alone to talk with a retired nurse in a sketchy neighborhood. Wife and I almost fell over dead at learning about that little stunt. I'm 100% sure they would tell me to take a hike if I asked them to assure my daughters safety in the most polite way saying "sorry, if you feel unsafe drop the program."


DD found a senior who had done clinical at that location and the entire group rented a car to go back and forth together. It sounds like the school is not getting involved in transportation and leaves that and the safety of that up to the discretion of the student. She can't seem to get any administrator to tell her how these rotations work logistically.

Someone said Philly is a dangerous city. I would agree. I've lived in DC, and only felt unsafe on 2 occasions, when I found myself stranded in SE DC as dark fell. I also almost went to grad school at University of Chicago, which is surrounded by rough dangerous places. So I know that every city has safe places Miracle Mile vs U Of Chicago. Georgetown & the monuments area of DC vs SE section.

The issue for our concern is UPENN is more like U of Chicago and SE DC areas once you step off the campus. It isn't like walking off campus at Georgetown or North Western.

Keep up the suggestions situational awareness etc. It is time Pappa & Mamma Bear start teaching their cub what is beyond the safety of the Forrest.

So far I have:
earbuds/phone away
Self defense class
Dress and appearance muted colors and appearance (ditch the flashy bag, and skirts)
Travel companion at all times off campus

Please add pepper spray to your list -- both in her handbag and in her jacket pocket (If she's wearing one), and have her keep hand on it when in sketchy places.

omni

 

[Koolau]

Please add pepper spray to your list -- both in her handbag and in her jacket pocket (If she's wearing one), and have her keep hand on it when in sketchy places.

omni

From my limited experience, the most dangerous cities usually ban the use (possession) of defensive items (firearms, night sticks, pepper spray, etc.) Of course, the old adage: "Better tired by 12 than carried by six" might be in order here. As always, YMMV.

 

[MikeWillRetire]

Oy vey.

 

[Luvdogs]

I'm glad to hear that Camden is getting better.

I was born in Cooper Hospital but never lived in Camden.

My dad would go to Camden in the 60's with his business and when I was a kid I would sometimes go along with him. But we always kept the car doors locked (way before they automatically locked) and also took our Doberman in the car with us.

 

[Senator]

Please add pepper spray to your list -- both in her handbag and in her jacket pocket (If she's wearing one), and have her keep hand on it when in sketchy places.

omni

Just make sure the pepper spray is legal in New Jersey...

NEW JERSEY: Legal with restrictions. Any non-felon 18 or over may possess for your protection “one pocket-sized device which contains and releases not more than three-quarters of an ounce of chemical substance not capable of lethal use or of inflicting serious bodily injury, but rather is intended to produce temporary physical discomfort or disability through being vaporized or otherwise dispensed in the air”.

Pepper Spray Laws and Mace vs Pepper Spray

 

[Popeye]

Just make sure the pepper spray is legal in New Jersey...

+1 ON THAT. I work in Trenton, NJ (hopefully not much longer )and must leave my good friend Samuel Colt at home every day.

 

[Just_Steve]

Look on the bright side if she does her ER rotation in Camden she will gain a wealth of experience not likely gained elsewhere.

 

[Scuba]

Look on the bright side if she does her ER rotation in Camden she will gain a wealth of experience not likely gained elsewhere.

+1
This is why many internship assignments are at inner city hospitals in a "bad" area. These are the hospitals where students get maximum exposure to trauma and difficult medical cases.

 

[daylatedollarshort]

So far I have:
earbuds/phone away
Self defense class
Dress and appearance muted colors and appearance (ditch the flashy bag, and skirts)
Travel companion at all times off campus

When we go into the city at night I leave my wedding rings and any expensive jewelry at home, take a small purse I wear cross shoulder and under my coat with most of the money, credit cards and non-essentials taken out, try to walk with the crowds, we don't take our phones out on the street or on the train, for music I use an old Ipod on the train and I wear walking shoes. I don't know the area you are talking about but where we live most of the petty crimes I read about are crimes of opportunity from people falling asleep in the train and getting their laptops stolen or people walking down the street using expensive phones where someone can just do a grab and run.

The only time we ever had anything stolen was on vacation near a nice hotel and that would not have happened if we had been more cautious.

 

[haha]

I grew up in a big city hospital zone. My parents had apartments which they marketed mostly to Medical Residents. I got to know some of these people while I lived at home, and for a while after. One thing to realize is the schools do not vet anything. It is assumed that everyone is on his-her own. Also, big city hospitals attract trouble. Especially in older cities they are in formerly prosperous areas, which have gone the way of many other formerly prosperous places. Down.

Hospitals of necessity attract trouble. People who get gun shot wounds have friends and enemies, many of whom show up. Hospitals operate Methadone Clinics and other things that might introduce a recent graduate of a nice suburb to a totally different world.

When shifts end at a hospital a huge crowd of workers do not go out together like at GE. Nurses get off in relatively small shift changes, and doctors may be entirely on a "leave when they get done" system.

And it is not like certain predators don't realize that tired sometimes distracted females might be heading to their cars at very late hours.

My city, Seattle, is relatively safe, but I live in a university neighborhood and 5 blocks from a big hospital zone. In addition to the do not wander around with earbuds in, I would suggest having a decent well maintained car so that when you get into at 3 am on a cold morning the thing will start. Also, do not wander around at all, know where you are going, look around, do not dig around in your purse looking for your keys or anything else.

Try to clear mind of work and other distractions, and get going when the work is done. And remember, late night rapid transit is not always nice.

The only time I was ever scared in a city was when I got confused on the NYC subway system and wound up at 2:30 am standing on a cold and deserted elevated stop somewhere in the South Bronx. I should add that it didn't help that I was a bit smashed.

One last thing- someone mentioned that very early morning can be riskier than late night. That seems to be true around here. Predators know about early AM joggers, etc., and they do not forget stuff like this.

Ha

 

[Luck_Club]

Thanks again for all the inputs.

Yesterday I spoke with DD, further. She still didn't have an official transport policy from the school yet. She said she wouldn't officially get the program contact until mid December. She did indicate she had found out from a senior who also had a rotation in Camden that all 8 of the students traveled as a group in a school rental car

We discussed the safety course, earbuds, and our general fear for her safety. While talking with her she was walking back from the library, and I could hear the heels of her boots clicking away. I informed her that she was ringing a bell to predators. She is being stubborn about it, but we will remain diligent.

Further researching crime statistics has over 170 assault and robberies taking place on the campus area. https://www.crimereports.com/agency...1828&position_id=33m9-hupm-row-gkng_38b5-w8nr

To further add to the worry, the local grocery store 3 blocks from her house is a virtual hot spot
with about 40 of the incidents taking place.

I've asked her to try and transfer out of this hospital, but it looks like all the local hospitals are in crime hot spots. There were 5 choices the 2 on campus, camden/cooper, Einstein and Lancaster. As parents we just assumed she would be able to do all her clinical at the local campus Hospital. It sounds like every clinical will be assigned by the school. Though they give the illusion the students have some say by allowing them to submit a 1st and 2nd choice preference.

Feeling pretty angry with myself for not thinking more carefully about this when it was decision time on schools. Had I known then that they would have such a blatant disregard for the safety of the students, I would have said no to PENN. Last 60 days of crime according to campus police log.
https://www.publicsafety.upenn.edu/clery/crimelog/

Maybe I'm over reacting a bit about the potential risks, but don't we all try to minimize risk and maximize gains?

 

[Philliefan33]

I think you need to stop looking for crime statistics. I clicked on the link you provided, and found 27 violent incidents in the UPenn area since June 1st. Given the thousands of people who pass through there every day, that doesn't seem like a high rate of crime. You are just stressing yourself, looking for problems.

Your daughter decided to go to college in an urban environment. Therefore, part of her learning will be developing street smarts. Whether she is in Philadelphia or going to Cooper for clinical rotations or traveling abroad or hiking the AT, adults need to be aware of their surroundings and take appropriate measures. It's not really UPenn's responsibility.

BTW, DD used to live in South Philly and work at HUP. I didn't worry about her taking the bus or driving to the hospital for her shifts. It's not really a bad neighborhood--there are much worse places in Philadelphia!

 

[HarveyS]

1 in 50 or 1 in 200 - neither is very good. Is that per day? Per month? More importantly, what are the statistics for hospital workers?
Worrying is natural.

 

[Philliefan33]

Worrying is natural, but considering making the daughter transfer is over the top. Millions of people live or work in big cities without being victims.

The 27 violent crimes reported were in five months. So on average, one violent crime every 5.5 days. Some of these are rapes and assault with a deadly weapon, which are typically commuted by someone the victim knows.

The data linked does not identify demographics of the victims. I have no reason to believe that hospital workers are over represented. DD worked 12 hour shifts, swinging day/night every couple of weeks. She, and most (all?) of the nurses entered or left the hospital between 6:45-7:45 a.m. /p.m. Not a high-risk time frame.

 

[bclover]

Further researching crime statistics has over 170 assault and robberies taking place on the campus area. https://www.crimereports.com/agency...1828&position_id=33m9-hupm-row-gkng_38b5-w8nr

To further add to the worry, the local grocery store 3 blocks from her house is a virtual hot spot
with about 40 of the incidents taking place.

I've asked her to try and transfer out of this hospital, but it looks like all the local hospitals are in crime hot spots. There were 5 choices the 2 on campus, camden/cooper, Einstein and Lancaster. As parents we just assumed she would be able to do all her clinical at the local campus Hospital. It sounds like every clinical will be assigned by the school. Though they give the illusion the students have some say by allowing them to submit a 1st and 2nd choice preference.

Feeling pretty angry with myself for not thinking more carefully about this when it was decision time on schools. Had I known then that they would have such a blatant disregard for the safety of the students, I would have said no to PENN. Last 60 days of crime according to campus police log.
https://www.publicsafety.upenn.edu/clery/crimelog/

Maybe I'm over reacting a bit about the potential risks, but don't we all try to minimize risk and maximize gains?

Yes I do think you are overacting, and I understand.

First, unfortunately as someone else mentioned big city hospitals tend to be in busy accessible areas. Your daughter is doing her clinical at a premier hospital, it is one of only 3 level 1 trauma centers in the region. Why would you want her to pick a small campus?

Why do you think Penn has a no regard for the students safety?? What more would you like them to do??

I think Penn does have plenty of resources, have your daughter take advantaged of them, lay off the crime reports, last summer I hit menopause big time, lol unfortunately for my doctor by the time I finished up on "webmd" I was convinced I had typhoid fever.
use the information as a tool not as a scare tactic.

 

[Moemg]

If your daughter wants to be a Doctor she really needs to get experience and what better place than a city hospital .She just needs to take a safety course and you need to chill.

 

[Katsmeow]

Those that pay make the rules..

Though I would pay dearly for it.

Don't do this unless you are comfortable irreparably damaging your relationship with your daughter.

Let me clear. I am 100% sympathetic on safety concerns. But, your daughter is an adult, who gets to make her own safety decisions.

Could you perhaps coerce her by using the money card. Yes? Is it wise?

Sometimes maybe. When my son was 18 or 19, I did make a lot of rules. Now, that he is 23 and in graduate school it isn't my call. In his case, he is paying for grad school himself but I wouldn't coerce him with money.

I did tend to be overprotective on safety stuff. Well, DS thought I was. I thought I was prudent. And, yes, I did coerce him at times based upon money.

But -- there came a time when he told me that I was on the verge of permanently damaging our relationship. I had to pull back. It has been difficult.

DS recently informed me that he was going on a trip over the winter break with friends where they will be driving in mountains with likely snow and ice. None of them have experience with it. I am terrified by it. I don't want him to go.

But, I've recognized that this is my problem. I did talk to him as did his Dad about some safety precautions he can take. He says he will take some of them. He says he will be careful. My concern is more the lack of experience than the being careful.

But -- here's the thing. He is over 21. He knows the risk and it is his risk to take. If I try to nag him about it or tried to coerce him (I could probably do it by offering him some monetary benefits that I wouldn't otherwise offer) I might get him to cancel the trip. But, I would hurt our relationship and it would be my fault.

If you try to make your daughter change schools because of your concerns then you could ruin your relationship with her. And, it would be your fault. If she wanted to switch schools that would be one thing.

I think that insisting she take the training is something that is a bit more reasonable to do. But, in the end, it is her life to make good or bad decisions. (And, yes, I know bad stuff can happen).

 

[NavAir]

Did my Medical School and Surgical residency in Downtown Philly. Lived near Pennsylvania Hospital for 4 years, in Queen Village after that. Walked to school/work almost every day, alone, used the subway concourses when it snowed. Never had any trouble. But...

I grew up in Philly. I had very good Situational Awareness skills. This was in the late 70s and early 80s, so no cell phones, ear buds, etc. I was alert. I knew what was around every corner before I turned it. I was always armed (knife). I was tough and looked it (I practiced that). I am a guy. But...

It is a different world. I wouldn't live in Downtown Philly now. I would have heartburn about one of my sons being in the same situation as your daughter. My kids are in a completely different kind of environment (one is at Univ of TX, San Antonio, the other at TX A&M). I still worry, but less...

Good luck.

 

[haha]

Did my Medical School and Surgical residency in Downtown Philly. Lived near Pennsylvania Hospital for 4 years, in Queen Village after that. Walked to school/work almost every day, alone, used the subway concourses when it snowed. Never had any trouble. But...

I grew up in Philly. I had very good Situational Awareness skills. This was in the late 70s and early 80s, so no cell phones, ear buds, etc. I was alert. I knew what was around every corner before I turned it. I was always armed (knife). I was tough and looked it (I practiced that). I am a guy. But...

It is a different world. I wouldn't live in Downtown Philly now. I would have heartburn about one of my sons being in the same situation as your daughter. My kids are in a completely different kind of environment (one is at Univ of TX, San Antonio, the other at TX A&M). I still worry, but less...

Good luck.

There are a lot of experienced and realistic posts in this thread. My 2 sons avoided any conflict about my fears or attempts to control them by earning their own money and treating me like a respected person, but one with no control over them.

Realistically most of us likely face more danger from traffic accidents, whether we are driving or pedestrians or bicyclists.

Anyone who thinks there is nothing out there to be concerned about just is not paying attention. But reasonable concern is different from fear, as we do have to go on functioning in our environments. And most of us are alive today with the help of some luck along the way. Let's drink to our luck continuing!

Ha

 

[Luck_Club]

Thanks for all the help

Once again this group has provided exceptional words of wisdom and guidance, along with reassurance not to over react.

The course of action the parental units are taking is as follows:
1) we are insisting upon a crash course in "street smart personal safety" over winter break.
2) We are requiring that a transportation plan is put in place and followed.
3) For this and other financial aid purposes we are having her to request transfer papers to put pressure on the school. They bumped our contribution 20% from year 1 to 2.
4) We are going to make sure she works harder to seek safer rotation locations in the future.
5) we are not letting her bring a car to campus.

 

[6miths]

The situation is seldom as bad as it is made out to be and things are generally much safer than they were in the 70s and 80s. The Philadelphia that I recall from 1985 is dramatically different from the one I see today.

Just be aware of surroundings and be smart.