would this bother you?

[Khan]

bingo. whether at a business lunch or a city hall meeting, the invocation is--by simply the action of its own ceremony--hegemonic in nature, setting up hierarchy to be accepted by the group and imbuing power to the dais.

i also take the stance of anthropologic observation whether watching public prayer or public mutilation or public masterbation. i don't see much of a difference between any of it.

I also deal with such by being the 'alien anthropologist'.

 

[bosco]

Your logic appears totally, totally inappropriate, too.

Let's not shift the subject -- we all know that sexual comments are inappropriate. But religion.

Since when is your idea that religion is a private matter, the norm for everyone to follow -- that's pretty intolerant of you, much the same as me saying that everyone should only express their religious beliefs in private and never at the work place -- why don't you just ban me from wearing any religious garb or emblems of my faith at the work place -- it might offend someone!

I happen to agree with privately praying and worshipping out of the public eye. But if someone wants to wear a cross, star of david or religious headware, why should I impose my private religious practices on that person?

who's shifting the subject? You just switched from public, essentially "captive audience" displays of religion to personal expressions and acted like they are the same. They are not.

If you can't see the difference between someone wearing a cross or the star of David etc. from a public prayer, then I'm not sure how to respond.

Let me say a better analogy would be a company memo requesting that Friday is "let's all wear crosses to work day." Would that be appropriate? Seems closer to everyone having to be seen bowing their head in prayer together.

Or if someone want another to say a prayer at the cafeteria table before they eat lunch, why should your views dominate the wishes of others?

Are they at a microphone and expecting everyone else to participate, or doing it privately on their own? Makes a big difference, I'd say.

It's not rude and insensitive for anyone to profess their faith in front of the world, including at the workplace; it's rude and insensitive for you to demand that they not do that -- a little tolerance would be nice; maybe, next time when it's Ash Wednesday, you ought to tell all those Catholics to wipe away their forehead markings when they come back to work after noon-time service!

I think you are confused about what tolerance is. I am very tolerant of anyone's belief, so long as it doesn't require them to kill me to enter heaven. But it is not a display of tolerance for me to have to be preached to when I don't wish it. That would be a display of lack of assertiveness.

Personally, I think it IS rude and insensitive to try to make people listen to your unprovable opinions about religion unless they have expressed an interest and desire to do so. But I'm not aware that I demanded that people cease being rude and insensitive. It sure would be nice, however, if they just did so on their own

Look, I admit, I'm an atheist. I don't spend my time trying to "convert" believers. In fact, for the most part, I try to leave people's belief systems unmolested (I do admit to having a weakness for a good argument but that is true regardless of the subject matter). If believing that stuff is a source of comfort to them, then I don't want to try to take anything away from them. But, in the same way that I don't care for cigarettes and don't appreciate someone trying to thrust them on me, I find it inappropriate for them to push their belief systems on me. I find it ESPECIALLY inappropriate when done under any sort of official mantle be it governmental, from an employer, or just someone who has ahold of a mike at a non-religious event.

It seems you refuse to make a distinction between a private display of faith, whether a personal prayer, piece of attire, or discussing one's faith in a private conversation (none of which I have a problem with) from a captive audience when said display is given the aura of official sanction, say by an employer.

I don't know about you, but it would irritate me if I went to a public assembly, say a town meeting to discuss policy matters and had to spend a bunch of time listening to someone discuss their faith. If I wanted to listen to that, I'd go to church. If I'm in a church, whether for a wedding or a funeral or whatever, then I expect it. Other places I do not.

 

[eridanus]

Since when is your idea that religion is a private matter, the norm for everyone to follow -- that's pretty intolerant of you

Jesus said it was a private matter! You're making Jesus cry.

(If I cared enough, I'd even quote the scripture about it.)


I've never seen this at a work function in the south, but I do live in a left-leaning city. When it happens at weddings or other social settings, I, too, keep my head up and meet the eyes of the other heathens.

 

[starter82]

Doesn't bother me all that much even though I would never initiate such a thing myself. It's not for me, but I don't think it's wrong to do it in the workplace as long as you're not actually required to pray.

 

[Dawg52]

Religion & politics, 2 subjects that make for long threads.

As stated earlier, I am from the south and have seen prayer in the work place for years. Before board meetings the Chairman would always give a brief prayer. At stockholders meetings the Chairman would give a prayer. At special company dinners or lunches, someone would bless the food. Not a problem as far as I was concerned. Whenever I traveled to other parts of the country for a company related meeting, no prayers given at lunch or before the meeting. That never bothered me either and didn't give it a second thought. I guess I'm just a roll with the flow type of guy.

It's funny though, outside the workplace I see it both ways here. For example, in a restaurant I rarely see a public prayer. But there are a few that do. I have religious beliefs but I just don't feel a need to make a public prayer. If I feel a need for prayer, I say it to myself. That's just me.

 

[lazygood4nothinbum]

Or if someone want another to say a prayer at the cafeteria table before they eat lunch, why should your views dominate the wishes of others?

the religiously proverbial eye for an eye:

is there not a difference between an individual offering a moment of silence before taking a meal in a cafeteria and an institutionalized moment of silence required of everyone within that cafeteria?

an individual practicing a moment of silence is not offensive, so why would an individual having a ruckus moment during a group's moment of silence offend them. and if it would offend them then maybe it is the action of the group which is equally offensive.

 

[lazygood4nothinbum]

I also deal with such by being the 'alien anthropologist'.

oh you want to out-alienate me do you? try going through life as the gay alien anthropologist.

 

[Zipper]

bosco, please stay in Canada.

You are our kind of guy!

 

[ChrisC]

who's shifting the subject? You just switched from public, essentially "captive audience" displays of religion to personal expressions and acted like they are the same. They are not.

If you can't see the difference between someone wearing a cross or the star of David etc. from a public prayer, then I'm not sure how to respond.

Nope, I think you got it all wrong again! This was posted as a private function -- a company holding a lunch -- where an employee requested the CEO to bless the food. No one was being coerced into a forced prayer to acknowledge anything, and as I've said all along we don't know the exact circumstances and culture of the company. We really don't know how "captive" was the lunch crowd, since for all we know, the poster and others, if they felt so uncomfortable could have left the scene.

Are they at a microphone and expecting everyone else to participate, or doing it privately on their own? Makes a big difference, I'd say.

Yeah it makes a big difference -- but you keep on assuming that there's a major element of coercion!

I think you are confused about what tolerance is. I am very tolerant of anyone's belief, so long as it doesn't require them to kill me to enter heaven. But it is not a display of tolerance for me to have to be preached to when I don't wish it. That would be a display of lack of assertiveness.

Yep, you're pretty much intolerant. Not confused, at all, about your view. No one is requiring you to open the door for the Jehovah Witnesses when they come knocking on your door. But you appear to think that people are preaching to you (and why you would think that!) when someone makes a common religious gesture of praying before eating a meal. You're simply not balancing your right to be left alone with someone else's right to show their faith.

Personally, I think it IS rude and insensitive to try to make people listen to your unprovable opinions about religion unless they have expressed an interest and desire to do so. But I'm not aware that I demanded that people cease being rude and insensitive. It sure would be nice, however, if they just did so on their own

Yep, that saying Grace before a meal really makes you listen to unprovable opinion and religion!

It seems you refuse to make a distinction between a private display of faith, whether a personal prayer, piece of attire, or discussing one's faith in a private conversation (none of which I have a problem with) from a captive audience when said display is given the aura of official sanction, say by an employer.

As I said several times over, context is everything; we don't know the culture or values of this employer; and we don't know whether this is really a "captive audience." It would make a big difference to anyone if the employer were Chick-Fil-A, Catholic Charities, or the NCAAP!

I don't know about you, but it would irritate me if I went to a public assembly, say a town meeting to discuss policy matters and had to spend a bunch of time listening to someone discuss their faith. If I wanted to listen to that, I'd go to church. If I'm in a church, whether for a wedding or a funeral or whatever, then I expect it. Other places I do not.

Well, I agree with you on that!

 

[Khan]

oh you want to out-alienate me do you? try going through life as the gay alien anthropologist.

Can't outdo that.

Straight and white so look 'normal', but get the hairy eyeball for being atheist.

 

[FlogBlogger]

God, please bless this plastic spork so that it doesn't break and snap off as I'm trying to cut this honey-baked ham.

Mine broke while spearing the green beans. Nor did I say a pre-meal prayer.

Divine intervention? Or just another corporate lean initiative?

 

[bssc]

Jesus said it was a private matter! You're making Jesus cry.

(If I cared enough, I'd even quote the scripture about it.)

Here it is.

Matthew 6:5-7
6:5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
6:6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

But only if you take the Bible literally.

 

[DRiP Guy]

I have had to sit through "invocations" and group-led prayer at graduation ceremonies at state-supported schools, by chaplains at military events where not being present would have been a ''missing movement" offense, by bosses both at large luncheons and at small private business lunches, I have been in the stands at sports events many times where prayer was invoked, some of those at forced high school events, etc etc etc

Even before my own personal religious beliefs were fully formed, I had a sense that making everyone who attended these conform to someone else's imposition of their own religious views and practices was wrong, at the very least at the personal rudeness level.

Did I ever make a big deal out of it? Nope. But that doesn't make it right, especially if it is a subtle way of testing whether you are willing to be "one of us" or not -- people take note of how enthusiastic or willing you are, and if you decide to overtly not bow head, close your eyes, repeat the words from well-oiled memory or not, then they may use that in subtle forms of discrimination afterwards, that they themselves may not even be aware of or able to control.

I once accidentally found out one guy I worked with was an avid practicing nudist, in terms of organized weekend activities, etc. Somehow in casual conversation he was trying to encourage and explain his activities to someone, and I overheard. I gotta tell you, I never knowingly changed the work relationship on purpose, or thought I had anything against what people do outside of work, but I was never able to shake that association with "why would someone do that?" [subtle questioning of his judgment based on my own cultural bias, right?] every time I saw him. And yet in France, it's no big deal, and I certainly like nudity in my own home at the 'appropriate' time <smile>... But I did make sure I was never alone with the guy in case he was thinking of 'recruiting' new nudists for the beach club - that's a pitch I really did not want to sit through... <laugh>...

 

[dumpster56]

Bless this and bless that bless your heart I hear all the time down south here in the states. Then they go out and get drunk, cheat on their wives etc. Its called hypocracy.

 

[dex]

I am surprised at all the responses that basically say it is OK for the manager to bless the food.

In my mind the issue is that all employess should be provided with a work enviorment where they are valued based upon their work performance only - not their religious or other affiliation.

This concept is similar to what has been established in law in other areas. It is not allowed to have pornography, a sexist or raciest atmosphere in the office.

An employee have to be subjected to someone elses religion while at work.

The work envoirment at work should be inclusive not exclusive.

 

[simple girl]

OK, since it's been asked:

No, this is not a religious organization. I happen to also have worked for different company in the past that was indeed a religious organization. They had me sign an acknowledgement that it was a religious company and their mission was guided by that. They had a morning prayer over the PA system, which I had absolutely no problem with. Everyone who worked there knew it was part of the company's mission to be Christian faith-based and had agreed to be part of that. We all had been given a choice to not be a part of this mission upon time of hire.

This company did not have me sign anything saying they are religious-based.

 

[haha]

It's not rude and insensitive for anyone to profess their faith in front of the world, including at the workplace;

I don't know much about world religions, but it seems that the fact that almost everyplace is full of shrines, churches, cathedrals, mosques etc. suggest the releigion is not supposed to be accomplished in the bathroom. And as regards Christianity, proselytizing is part of the charge given by Jesus to His followers. You are not supposed to be quiet about your religion.

I think as part of personal development we should work on limiting what offends us to the likes of murder and rape, and not worry too much about releigious practices. Even if the practitioners have downscale accents.

Ha

 

[eridanus]

I don't know much about world religions, but it seems that the fact that almost everyplace is full of shrines, churches, cathedrals, mosques etc. suggest the releigion is not supposed to be accomplished in the bathroom. And as regards Christianity, proselytizing is part of the charge given by Jesus to His followers. You are not supposed to be quiet about your religion.

I think as part of personal development we should work on limiting what offends us to the likes of murder and rape, and not worry too much about releigious practices. Even if the practitioners have downscale accents.

Ha

Well, true, praying is not supposed to occur in the bathroom, but in the closet, in secret. Or maybe your words trump Jesus' words?

6:6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.


I agree about being offended at religious practices. It's no big deal. Of course, I also know that many upstanding Christians would be offended if a Jew prayed about waiting for the Messiah, or a Muslim mentioned Mohammed as God's #1 prophet. In other words, we're all tolerant until someone disagrees with us.

 

[haha]

LOL!

Well, I see your point. I guess Jesus was into the closet after all. I thought that all the opprobrium heaped on Peter's head for failing to speak out about his faith when that cock was crowing pretty well showed that you were supposed to be forthright about this faith business.

BTW, I am not into any of this myself, but I am definitely not offended by others religiosity. I think that something that has such great appeal to so many people for so long must be pretty strong. Also, I think that our modern secular culture is about used up, so who knows from what quarter a new direction might come?

Ha

 

[ChrisC]

Jesus said it was a private matter! You're making Jesus cry.

(If I cared enough, I'd even quote the scripture about it.)


I've never seen this at a work function in the south, but I do live in a left-leaning city. When it happens at weddings or other social settings, I, too, keep my head up and meet the eyes of the other heathens.

So Jesus actually told you I'm making Him cry -- how else would you know I've fallen so short of his teachings and made him cry! I'm glad you have a direct line of communication with Jesus, something I've never had myself.


Religion has never been a private matter throughout our entire civilization. Prayer, itself, for many is a private matter, though most non-Christian faiths have group and public prayer. And I hope you don't feel too bad when all of us heathens in this country proclaim our faith in God during our National Day of Prayer and Thanksgiving, which comes every 4th week in November.

 

[eridanus]

So Jesus actually told you I'm making Him cry -- how else would you know I've fallen so short of his teachings and made him cry! I'm glad you have a direct line of communication with Jesus, something I've never had myself.

Yes, he did. We were hanging around having a beer and he started to bawl. He's pretty sensitive, Jesus is. I asked him, "Yo, dawg, what up?" He then gave me the full scoop. I try to be there for him, but I hate it when he makes my shirt all wet with his tears.

 

[ChrisC]

Well, true, praying is not supposed to occur in the bathroom, but in the closet, in secret. Or maybe your words trump Jesus' words?

6:6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

You should read the scriptures more carefully before you represent the scriptures as supporting your view. Getting back to the precise issue here, we're talking about "Grace" being said before sitting down and eating food; a simple blessing of the food. If you think this would make Jesus cry or is against his teachings, then Jesus himself wasn't faithful to his own practice since he "blessed" the food in his most significant public sermon when he fed a large multitude of people with five loaves of bread and two fish ([FONT=arial,helvetica]Mark 6:41;[/FONT][FONT=arial,helvetica]Matthew 14:19;[/FONT][FONT=arial,helvetica]Luke 9:16;[/FONT][FONT=arial,helvetica]John 6:11)[/FONT]. Jesus, if you read the scriptures, did say grace before he fed the masses!

 

[eridanus]

You should read the scriptures more carefully before you represent the scriptures as supporting your view

Of course my reading of the scriptures is more correct than yours. What crazy religious sect do you follow, anyway?


Ok, enough tweaking your nose. I get the feeling you're becoming offended....

 

[ChrisC]

Of course my reading of the scriptures is more correct than yours. What crazy religious sect do you follow, anyway?


Ok, enough tweaking your nose. I get the feeling you're becoming offended....

Not offended at all by your remarks. I've had my chain pulled by many and it never upsets me.

 

[lazygood4nothinbum]

we're talking about "Grace" being said before sitting down and eating food; a simple blessing of the food. If you think this would make Jesus cry or is against his teachings, then Jesus himself wasn't faithful to his own practice since he "blessed" the food in his most significant public sermon

i was going to simply write that this is starting to bother me. but while i'm at it i might point out that i have yet to see anyone here actually quote the so-called jesus. rather what you all quote are interpretations and commentary on what supposedly was said or done. basically, we're not getting quotes here; all we are getting is hearsay.

but to a less frivolous point, is there some difference between god (assuming that jesus and god are supposedly the same) and man offering a blessing? how lovely that god might bless your fish, but how arrogant that man might presume authority to extend god's blessings.