would this bother you?

[Texas Proud]

funny thing is you'd have to hold your hand over a bible to testify in court...

Ahh.... nope... at least here there were not bible in court..

 

[Texas Proud]

It's not rude and insensitive for anyone to profess their faith in front of the world, including at the workplace; it's rude and insensitive for you to demand that they not do that -- a little tolerance would be nice; maybe, next time when it's Ash Wednesday, you ought to tell all those Catholics to wipe away their forehead markings when they come back to work after noon-time service!

Chris C, you have this narrow few that YOUR religion is the one that is being done to everybody...

I remember going to one of those controversial movies that the religious people did not like.. and afterwards there were a few religious professors to discuss the movie... and both of them said religion should not be done in the public places....

There was a teacher that argued with them that a prayer should be said in class and that it was 'needed' since all the kids were so bad... one of the professors asked 'What is the person giving the prayer was a Wican?'... she said that they should not be able to give a prayer... WHY?? Because SHE is intolerant of others views... only HER view should be used for prayer..

So my question to you.. what if it was a Jewish prayer, or a WICAN prayer or a DEVIL WORSHIPER prayer Are these all not valid religious beliefs that we should be able to force on others

 

[ChrisC]

Chris C, you have this narrow few that YOUR religion is the one that is being done to everybody...

I remember going to one of those controversial movies that the religious people did not like.. and afterwards there were a few religious professors to discuss the movie... and both of them said religion should not be done in the public places....

There was a teacher that argued with them that a prayer should be said in class and that it was 'needed' since all the kids were so bad... one of the professors asked 'What is the person giving the prayer was a Wican?'... she said that they should not be able to give a prayer... WHY?? Because SHE is intolerant of others views... only HER view should be used for prayer..

So my question to you.. what if it was a Jewish prayer, or a WICAN prayer or a DEVIL WORSHIPER prayer Are these all not valid religious beliefs that we should be able to force on others

Texas Proud, you assume the worse in me, don't you? I'm not a religious zealot -- I'm actually quite agnostic in my beliefs though I have been known to attend and worship once in a while in a church setting. I grew up in an religiously diverse neighborhood in Brooklyn, NY where I became familiar with the practices of Hasidic Jews, Muslims and Catholics. I am a lapsed Catholic myself who preferred the fellowship of a small Baptist Church in rural Virginia. I don't preach any faith or religious viewpoint.

I don't presume my faith is correct for anyone except myself. And my children have their own stated religious views.

I challenge you to find anything in my posts that presumes that I am imposing my faith on anyone!

 

[Brat]

IMHO blessing the food is a religious act, but pausing for a few moments before partaking of a meal to silently give thanks for the earth's bounty would not.

Here is my suggestion: Anonymously ask HR to write a script for managers to use in such circumstances, one that reflects the diversity of religious beliefs in the workforce (including none). Those whose beliefs dictate a prayer before meals would be accommodated, and those who have other practices are as well.

A couple years ago I attended a holiday party at USDOL at an office in a northern state. They had a new manager who grew up in the south. He led a Protestant Christian prayer before the start of the meal, completely disregarding the Buddhist and a Shinto in his staff. Evidently the manager was a nice guy because no uproar ensued, but the manager didn't last a year... he just couldn't adjust to the change in culture.

 

[Bigritchie]

Moderators, feel free to remove this thread if you feel it is too controversial...

Yesterday I attended a work lunch. The CEO was present. After our entrees arrived, someone suggested the food be blessed. The CEO then offerred a prayer.

OK, so I am from the north, transplanted here in the deep South. This just would NEVER happen in the north. I just feel it is wrong to assume everyone has the same beliefs and/or impose your beliefs upon them, especially in a work situation. It's not that I'm not religious. However, what if I weren't? What if I was an aetheist, agnostic, or some other religion that wasn't Christian?

I feel there should be a separation of church and work, and that just isn't happenning here at all.

So you should impose your beliefs on them, not allow them to pray? I mean best case scenario here God may bless your food, worst case scenario, it means nothing so why even worry about it?

 

[Khan]

So you should impose your beliefs on them, not allow them to pray? I mean best case scenario here God may bless your food, worst case scenario, it means nothing so why even worry about it?

Can't they pray silently?

Or is other people hearing it the important part?

 

[Bigritchie]

I have a American flag hung in my business. One time I had a Megacorp person come into my store (he was American), and he threw a little tizzy that I had a American flag hung in my store, because it might "offend the illegals or the tourist".

I smiled and said "You just offended me *******, get the f*** outa my store.

To my utter delight he refused to leave, and learned the old proverb "It is all fun and games till the crazy Marine comes around the counter after you" hehe.

I know that doesn't really have anything to do with the op, but it brought it to mind and gave me a chuckle.

 

[Meadbh]

Here's another idea for dealing with this situation:

Have colleagues each prepare a LONG blessing, each representing a different belief system. After the CEO finishes his blessing, just start the next one, and the next one, and the next one.....by the time this is finished, hot food will be cold, half the time allotted to the meeting will be over, and the CEO will have had to listen to a dose of his own medicine.

If he says "my way is the only way" then you have grounds for a complaint. More likely he will realize that a blessing that invokes a specific belief makes people not of that belief uncomfortable and is not appropriate in the secular workplace.

 

[Brat]

 

[dex]

So you should impose your beliefs on them, not allow them to pray? I mean best case scenario here God may bless your food, worst case scenario, it means nothing so why even worry about it?

No worries for me - I'm ER.

But this does not created a proper work enviorment. Think of it this way - instead of praying subsitute sexist jokes. Get it now?

 

[Texas Proud]

Texas Proud, you assume the worse in me, don't you? I'm not a religious zealot -- I'm actually quite agnostic in my beliefs though I have been known to attend and worship once in a while in a church setting. I grew up in an religiously diverse neighborhood in Brooklyn, NY where I became familiar with the practices of Hasidic Jews, Muslims and Catholics. I am a lapsed Catholic myself who preferred the fellowship of a small Baptist Church in rural Virginia. I don't preach any faith or religious viewpoint.

I don't presume my faith is correct for anyone except myself. And my children have their own stated religious views.

I challenge you to find anything in my posts that presumes that I am imposing my faith on anyone!

Read my post again as tell me where I would think you are a religious zealot??

But, you are defending a prayer at a gathering in a company setting and then saying that the people who do not think it appropriate as intolerant. So I asked... if the CEO was a devil worshiper and had a prayer to the devil would your view change...

If you say yes your view would change, then you are a hypocrite as both are religious beliefs, if you say no then the devil worship would upset the majority there and why upset the majority because of a religious prayer? Ergo, then why upset a minority because of a religious prayer when it is inappropriate.

 

[haha]

I have a American flag hung in my business. One time I had a Megacorp person come into my store (he was American), and he threw a little tizzy that I had a American flag hung in my store, because it might "offend the illegals or the tourist".

I smiled and said "You just offended me *******, get the f*** outa my store.

To my utter delight he refused to leave, and learned the old proverb "It is all fun and games till the crazy Marine comes around the counter after you" hehe.

I know that doesn't really have anything to do with the op, but it brought it to mind and gave me a chuckle.

Hey, I like this attitude! Give us some more stories about taking down a--holes!

Ha

 

[chinaco]

People who have strong ties to their faith (especially people that are strict fundamentalist in several religions) would be offended by feeling they were placed in a situation to pray to a god in which they did not believe. Many would consider it to be unfaithful.

I suspect that most non-fundamentalist would consider it to be respecting other's choice to believe whatever they choose and perhaps just remain silent.


IMHO a one-time event is nothing to get bent out of shape about. Some people would take that and try to turn it into a political soap box. On the other hand, if the CEO were gathering everyone together every morning or praying over an intercom daily and expecting others to do so... he probably would have crossed the line in this country because of the separation of church and state and the way that fundamental concept has worked its way into our society... or at least for most.

 

[FinallyRetired]

I suspect that most non-fundamentalist would consider it to be respecting other's choice to believe whatever they choose and perhaps just remain silent.

That's my approach. I'm a Christian of the Roman Catholic persuasion, and when I first found myself in the deep south I found the public prayers a bit unusual. Prayers at football games, at public dinners, etc, though I don't recall any in a work environment. Anyway, I respected those who prayed their own way even if I didn't join in. I've always preferred to do my own praying in private unless I'm in church.

When I lived in a fairly traditional Moslem country I had the experience of everyone stopping whatever they were doing several times a day, prostating themselves towards Mecca, and praying. They did this whether they were farming, working, or anything. I obviously didn't join them, but I never felt pressure from them to join, and I respected them for being faithful to their beliefs.

I figure as long as people are following the golden rule, which applies in just about every religion, I have no problem respecting their beliefs and giving them the time to express them in public. When they twist their beliefs to become "our way or else," then I oppose that no matter the religion.

Christ never told anyone to go out and force faith on others; instead he told his followers to watch over their own spiritual lives and become an example to others.

That's enough for my Sunday sermon

 

[ChrisC]

Read my post again as tell me where I would think you are a religious zealot??

But, you are defending a prayer at a gathering in a company setting and then saying that the people who do not think it appropriate as intolerant. So I asked... if the CEO was a devil worshiper and had a prayer to the devil would your view change...

If you say yes your view would change, then you are a hypocrite as both are religious beliefs, if you say no then the devil worship would upset the majority there and why upset the majority because of a religious prayer? Ergo, then why upset a minority because of a religious prayer when it is inappropriate.

A zealot is anyone, in my view, that seeks to impose his religious views on others. I read your post again and you stated quite clearly that you think I am saying it's either my religion or the highway.

I'm defending a CEO's right to say Grace at a lunch at his Company at the request of another employee, and I've been clear in saying that these efforts to say Grace should be balanced against someone else's right to be left alone. Others have recognized that balance and have proposed some solutions, instead of the idea that one group has a veto over the rights of the other group; it's intolerant to me to suggest that either group's views should trump the rights of others -- that's all I have been saying.

Texas Proud, that question you pose to me again assumes I have a particular religious view that I would like to promote when Grace is said -- of course, I abhor the imposition of any particular faith on anyone. And getting back to the original post, we don't really know the exact wording of the Grace being said by the CEO, but I find it interesting that you (and others) apparently assume it has a religious fervor to it all. If the CEO said a Christian, Jewish, Buddhist, or Muslim prayer that preached a definite view of faith -- that is simply inappropriate, unless the Company had a faith based culture to its organization. So, to answer your silly question, I would find it unacceptable for Grace to be grounded in a Satanic, Wiccan, Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, or any other religious view. And if a non-denominational prayer does not work for the Atheist, then I think the Atheist should be able to exercise his right to do whatever he wants to do while Grace is said. But in most cases, a nondenomination prayer or words of thanks will do the trick.

How's that for being such a hypocrite?

 

[dex]

I'm defending a CEO's right to say Grace at a lunch at his Company at the request of another employee, and I've been clear in saying that these efforts to say Grace should be balanced against someone else's right to be left alone.

Would you defend the right of the CEO to hold the lunch at a strip club if a employee requested it?

 

[ChrisC]

Would you defend the right of the CEO to hold the lunch at a strip club if a employee requested it?

Well, that would depend, among other things, if everyone else were like-minded to attend the club. Context is everything, isn't it? It's like me asking you whether you would defend the right of the CEO to hold lunch at Cracker Barrel or Augusta National Country Club? Some might find lunch at those places clearly offensive too!

 

[HFWR]

Would you defend the right of the CEO to hold the lunch at a strip club if a employee requested it?

AMEN!!

 

[donheff]

I have experienced this and been irritated and then gone about my business like many of you suggest. But I wonder how those of you who counsel that this is no big deal would honestly react if a Muslim boss recited a prayer that invoked Muhammad and was clearly "alien" to Christianity. I suspect that in most American workplaces that boss would be silenced almost immediately and might even find himself on the unemployment roles.

 

[Rich_by_the_Bay]

I have experienced this and been irritated and then gone about my business like many of you suggest. But I wonder how those of you who counsel that this is no big deal would honestly react if a Muslim boss recited a prayer that invoked Muhammad and was clearly "alien" to Christianity. I suspect that in most American workplaces that boss would be silenced almost immediately and might even find himself on the unemployment roles.

That's a good point, Don. It is easier to say it's "no big deal" when the general look and feel of the act is familiar and comfortable to you.

As society gets more diverse, well-meaning acts of worship sprung on an unwitting group seem to run more and more risk of offending, however benevolent the intentions.

 

[Alex]

Yawn.....It would not bother me at all. While I am not 'religious' (I am spiritual though) I understand that others are and I respect that. Now if my paycheck bounced..... , well, you can be sure that'd bother me.

 

[donheff]

Yawn.....It would not bother me at all. While I am not 'religious' (I am spiritual though) I understand that others are and I respect that. Now if my paycheck bounced..... , well, you can be sure that'd bother me.

I can yawn too. I am not bothered by Muslims, Christians, or Wiccans. But what would happen at your workplace (or former workplace if your are ERd) if a Muslim boss started meetings with his Muslim prayers? The fact is, the majority sees it as no big deal to impose their beliefs on minorities (witness prayers in school) but would raise holy hell (pun intended) if minorities did the same. We don't need no stinkin theocracy in the US.

 

[Brat]

That is why a minute of silence before a meal is the better choice.

 

[brewer12345]

Well, that would depend, among other things, if everyone else were like-minded to attend the club. Context is everything, isn't it? It's like me asking you whether you would defend the right of the CEO to hold lunch at Cracker Barrel or Augusta National Country Club? Some might find lunch at those places clearly offensive too!

How about lunch at a gay strip club?

 

[justin]

How about lunch at a gay strip club?

Wait - are we talking lesbians or dudes in that gay strip club?

(I'd be in favor of the lesbians of the lipstick variety, personally)