Would you buy in a golf course development?

[COcheesehead]

All the negativity in this thread seems to be opposite of our reality. The community in which we live is looked at as the premier neighborhood in town and the one you want to live in if you can afford it. The course is almost secondary though it is always ranked as the number one public course in the state and has a constant flow of women’s groups, kids and of course men. It also attracts weddings and corporate events. I really think it’s like most real estate in that it’s really localized as to the value of the property.

 

[Aerides]

There are some places in S. Fla where older courses are closing, so developments built around them are in litigation over the land use plans.

Most of these though aren't where the course is part of the development. Interestingly I read an article recently that said retirement communities are built around golf...but not really because retirees like to play golf, but they REALLY like driving golf carts around lol.

 

[JoeWras]

I agree. Golf is dying...the young people aren't replacing the older folk that are dropping out. Course around here that used to have waiting lists and initiation fees are now advertising for members.

Not extreme enough. Not fast enough.


I got frustrated in the 90s during the explosion in popularity when they jacked fees through the roof and the courses were crowded. Perhaps why I lost my passion as I really stopped playing frequently back then.

 

[Elbata]

I am having this same dilemma. As mentioned in another thread we have been looking in Vegas as possible next destination. There are tons of million dollar+ (and even multi-million dollar) homes on a closed golf course. It is amazing to look at it as everything is still there - cart paths, ball washers, bathroom buildings, holes that used to have water, sand traps, and a whole bunch of brown grass. There is presently a lawsuit going on as a developer is trying to develop it. So one day these people have golf course front homes, then they have brown grass and who knows what else (homeless people?) for 5 years and then maybe one day big houses! One house listing had pictures with green grass out back which I was pretty sure was 5 years old. Look up pictures of Badlands golf club or Queensridge on Google. I walked by the course last time we were there and it definitely caused me to think twice about golf course homes. One development, in particular, is on a second rate golf course which seems to me to be ripe to have the same thing happen to it.

Recently golfed "Bear's Best" in Vegas. I could not believe the homes along the golf course. Millions and millions of buckaroos. Just hope the golf course remains viable.

We looked in Palm Desert/Palm Springs area and the RE agent said a lot of golf courses are having difficulty. Just as another commenter mentioned, the youngsters just aren't taking up golf.

 

[Badger]

If you move into a golf course community and it starts to go down hill then it may eventually be used as building sites for more homes.


I would first study the area closely and buy in the best location regardless of being in a golf community and then join a country club you like.


Cheers!

 

[ShokWaveRider]

In theory, if GC communities for whatever reasons deteriorate and close, it will make the better, well run and not deteriorating ones worth more to live in.

 

[Scuba]

Interesting responses, thanks. We are not golfers so the only reason we would buy on one is the expansive views. We do not like seeing other nearby dwellings as part of our view, and the best way to avoid that in the Palm Springs area seems to be buying on a golf course. However, we are concerned about the risk.

We are familiar with a development on St. Thomas called Mahogany Run. It was beautiful before the 2017 hurricanes devastated the area. The clubhouse and golf course were owned by a third party and were significantly damaged by Hurricane Irma. The third party owner has done nothing to rehabilitate the course or rebuild the clubhouse, and the HOA is struggling to fund all the repairs needed to the homes and condos in the development so cannot at this time buy it back from the third party owner. We looked at condos in that development in 2018, but decided it was too risky. Even if another hurricane doesn’t hit for a long time, property values are inherently tied to having an operational golf course and clubhouse. Without these amenities, we were concerned that values may fall in a big way.

Probably won’t buy a second home anytime soon anyway as the market is a sellers market now. Plus, we like flexibility and traveling to different places vs being tied to one.

 

[Aerides]

Another factor - even if the course stays open and active: If your home is near a tee, expect to hear expletives and other chatter with frequency. If your home is on the fairway, be aware of bad shots coming near your house.

 

[COcheesehead]

Another factor - even if the course stays open and active: If your home is near a tee, expect to hear expletives and other chatter with frequency. If your home is on the fairway, be aware of bad shots coming near your house.

Nah. We don’t hear anything from the course. The snack cart however does drive by frequently, so if you need a hot dog....

 

[Midpack]

I love golf, have played for 52 years now - but I would not buy a home on a golf course. Golf participation is declining, so there will be pressure on homeowners to contribute more to maintaining the course through play, monthly minimums and/or HOA fees, etc. If the course your home is on closes, your property value will suffer. And others may disagree, but I like to play a variety of courses, I don't want to feel an obligation to play any one course - even if I live in the community. YMMV

There's a golf course community about a mile away from me that was designed by Jack Kidwell & Michael Hurdzan. It was gorgeous and very well maintained when it opened in 1997 (during the Tiger era) and it was a destination course. But in time it began to decline, wasn't maintained to the same high standards, and became an albatross around homeowners necks. It was a private course for the first few years, then private/public, now I think it's strictly public. A few years ago they basically let the GM, the golf pro and almost everyone else go, and the decline worsened. Homeowners were panicked and eating more and more expense. Last year they sold the entire operation to Billy Casper Golf for $650K - about 1/10th of what it cost to build in 1997, and about 1/4th what the local CC (a middling course at best) was on the market for a couple years ago. Not sure how the story ends yet...

 

[brett]

Never.

Several courses have closed where we live. Some homes on the course dropped $40K on the announcement. Dropped again when it because public that some multi story townhouses and apts were part of the plan.

An HOA where the golf course ownership/operation is part of the community finance is even a worse investment.

Take a look at the number of golf course closures in NA over each of the past several years.

 

[RetMD21]

We don't golf but may of the nicer communities that we have looked at in AZ have integrated golf courses. We might end up in a GC community hoping for the best which might be letting the course revert to desert when the cost of water precludes golf operations.

 

[Breedlove]

Golf is struggling in South Houston ( Fort Bend County ) Pecan Grove CC was a members only country club but now is turning to public . Failed to get enough members.

 

[Scuba]

Yeah I did a bit more research on this topic and apparently it’s enough of a concern in Palm Springs that the City is trying to pass some regulations requiring homeowner input on land use when a golf course in a community ceases operations and/or limiting what developers can do with the land. If we ever get serious about shopping for real estate in the desert, we will definitely do our homework. I can’t imagine all golf courses will go away in our lifetime, but apparently there are 123 golf courses in the Coachella Valley and not nearly enough demand to keep them all going. So many of the nicer residential developments are centered around golf courses.

 

[Midpack]

Yeah I did a bit more research on this topic and apparently it’s enough of a concern in Palm Springs that the City is trying to pass some regulations requiring homeowner input on land use when a golf course in a community ceases operations and/or limiting what developers can do with the land. If we ever get serious about shopping for real estate in the desert, we will definitely do our homework. I can’t imagine all golf courses will go away in our lifetime, but apparently there are 123 golf courses in the Coachella Valley and not nearly enough demand to keep them all going. So many of the nicer residential developments are centered around golf courses.

Building on a golf course was a safe bet for many years, not so any more. And they won’t all go away, the top tier golf courses (many private) will hold on better (there are always rich and expense account folks who value exclusivity) and the thinning will go on as long as the decline continues - who knows where demand bottoms out. Many of our generations pastimes are slowly fading and won’t be as popular in a few decades, e.g. golf, tennis, sailing, etc. The median age of folks playing golf and sailing has already increased by 20 years in the past 50 years, and you know how that ends...

 

[aja8888]

Golf is struggling in South Houston ( Fort Bend County ) Pecan Grove CC was a members only country club but now is turning to public . Failed to get enough members.

On the North side (The Woodlands only), golf membership and course activity not doing badly (5 courses here) and the memberships are still at high levels. This, I am sure, is due to the very high growth of the area (Exxon with 8,000 - 10,000 new area employees) and the Houston resident migration from the south.

I do know that the exclusive Carlton Woods courses (two) went private two years ago as the members bought the place out. The buy in was $100,000 per member family (on top of what was originally assessed). But that place is also nicknamed "Carlos Woods. Figure it out for yourself!

 

[garyt]

I love golf but wouldn't want to live directly on a course. The GC communities here (MI) seem to have the houses very close together and close to the course .There are courses where the cart path gets so close to houses you could reach out and touch them. I wouldn't trust letting my kids play in the yard with so many strangers riding by.
If I could afford a half million dollar house I'd want some land and privacy to go with it. Now obviously on some courses the houses are set back quite a ways from the course which would mitigate this problem.

 

[JoeWras]

We have non-golfing friends who live on a course, on a fairway, about 200 yds from the tee box.

They like to sit on the porch and watch golfers go by as they play their game.

However, they have witnessed some ugly stuff. They get the occasional hit to the house, of course. That doesn't bother them as much as players who go 20 yards out of bounds and try to play a ball right against the house! There is also the occasional incident of golfers taking a wizz in their backyard. Really uncalled for. (semi-private course, public welcome)

 

[RunningBum]

I haven't seen this first hand, but I'm told there is a woman who lives on a semi-private golf course who blows an air horn whenever she sees anyone relieving themselves on the course. Her yard is pretty tree free and across from the tree box, so nobody would be going in her yard. The woods are on the other side of the tee box and down the fairway a bit, a good 100 yards from her house. Apparently she's so offended by this she spends much of her day looking for it. I just find this amusing.

 

[DFDubb]

Like everything else, the answer is: it depends.

I'm a big golfer and have bought 3 different homes on 3 different private golf courses in 3 different parts of the country. We relocate a lot lol. 1 such home was within 2 hours of Palm Springs and I've spent a ton of time there. Palm Springs is unique in the sheer quantity of golf courses, there are maybe only 2 other places in the world to compare with it. The golf course ownership in Palm Springs runs the entire gamut. Large corporations can own them (Club Corp) and operate them responsibly all the way to the owner being the HOA of the trailer park sitting next to the course. You would really have to do your research on this aspect. I don't see Palm Springs as sustainable in anywhere near the capacity of courses that currently exists. The fact that it is in the middle of the desert turns off the younger generation (more environmentally conscious) even more. I think if you wanted to buy a place in Mission Hills or Indian Wells, that's a safe bet. Those 2 clubs are owned by Club Corp and have a lot of history, neither of which is going anywhere anytime soon. As for the vast majority of other clubs in Palm Springs, I'd pursue with extreme caution.

You've seen, even in this thread, people comment that they don't see the deterioration in their current golf community. This can be the case, because when a golf course is shuttered, everything appeared ok until it wasn't. Ownership will do everything it can to survive until the very last minute that it cannot. It will never send out red flags to residents or the local community in advance. Perfectly manicured today, out of business tomorrow. That's just how it works. Owners try and sell the course, but nobody is buying.

I sold my last property on a private course a couple of years ago. I still live in the same general area and lots of my friends are still members. I sat on the golf committee (think golf course) and the membership committee (think club financials) and in doing so, the writing was on the wall that my beloved course was going to shutter. As of now it is still open, but if it shut it's doors tomorrow I wouldn't bat an eye. I would feel terrible for the membership and everyone that lives on the course (many of them friends). I've tried to talk about with many of them, but all are in denial and refuse to accept the reality. They somehow think a membership of ~300 golfers is enough to sustain a private country club. Spoiler alert, it's not.

I love the game of golf and just about everything about it. As I mentioned I've owned properties tied to country clubs. For me, it was time to pull my money off the table. My advice would be to do your homework on the club and proceed with extreme caution, especially in a place like Palm Springs. You also mentioned living there full time. Have you spent a summer in Palm Springs? Not a place I want to be.

 

[ShokWaveRider]

Here is a little overview of G@CCs in our direct area in NW Fla. The infor is mainy hearsay and personal observation.

Our G&CC has Restrooms and Water available in different areas on the course. Never heard of that being an issue. We are in the newest area of the development and are nowhere near any golf greens, that was a key criteria for us when buying as we do not play or like golf.

That begs the question, why live there then? Well this is the 3rd G&CC we have lived in and compared to other HOAs we have seen they keep the complete area behind the gates immaculate (for the most part) and there is nothing we hate worse than walking or driving in and out of our neighborhood looking at unkempt roads, lawns, trees etc. to us that is worth the potential downsides. The key I think is NON mandatory Club Memberships for residents. We are not even social members, as all the folk there either very old or do nothing but talk about golf. We can go to the clubhouse if we like but typically only go for hosted community meetings. We do go with my neighbor on occasion as he is an avid golfer.

Saying that they could build condos, apartments, even a sewage plant on our golf greens and it would not affect us in the slightest as we cannot see it and do not need to drive by the greens of we choose not to as one of the exterior gates is close to our neighborhood. Our 600 homes are split into different enclaves (Cannot think of a better word, but they are middle to upper middle class areas). Each area has perhaps 50 - 100 homes in them. Ours had an additional gate that is cosmetic and left open as it only leads to another area. Home prices for the community range from $450k to over $2m.

ClubCorp's selling point is that if you are a member of any of their properties you can use any other property at no extra costs. This I would think solves the playing one course all the time problem.

I have heard that the local public course Royal St. Augustine (about 5 miles away) is having financial issues and the condition reflects that. There are only small homes in that development $100k - $300k.

WGV is further inland but is more popular as it has the World Golf Hall of fame, and attracts a lot of tourists. Too far inland for us though, and brutally hot in the height of summer. Homes are again Middle to Upper Middle class there too, although we have heard that membership is lagging and service is suffering there. Especially in "The King and The Bear".

Sawgrass and PGA have the snob factor and will probably survive no matter what, Defiantly upper class homes and fees.

Down South in Palm Coast the golf clubs are probably suffering as when driving by they look very unkempt.

The moral of this thesis is as some have said, do your homework before you buy. There are good and bad things about any HOA. Buyer beware. The well managed ones will get a premium, the poorly managed ones will not and tend to lose over time.

 

[Midpack]

I love golf but wouldn't want to live directly on a course. The GC communities here (MI) seem to have the houses very close together and close to the course .There are courses where the cart path gets so close to houses you could reach out and touch them. I wouldn't trust letting my kids play in the yard with so many strangers riding by.
If I could afford a half million dollar house I'd want some land and privacy to go with it. Now obviously on some courses the houses are set back quite a ways from the course which would mitigate this problem.

It’s rare, but I’ve seen a couple golf courses houses that were too close and about 200-250 yards right of a tee (lots of right handers slice). One in particular had the side of the garage absolutely pummeled, it was apparent the homeowners had given up on repairing the siding -it would be hopeless. Other homeowners find golf balls in their yards week after week - with their mowers...

 

[Big_Hitter]

We live in a golf course community, but membership is not tied to the house. The surrounding beauty is hard to beat. It’s like living in a park. No houses behind us. Quiet with greenery year round. The clubhouse acts like a neighborhood gathering place.

similar here - I live on a street very close to a private club of which we are members - OP, if you move to a golf club community I would strongly encourage joining an equity club that is member owned

 

[DFDubb]

OP, if you move to a golf club community I would strongly encourage joining an equity club that is member owned

Would you make this recommendation for the OP knowing that they don't play golf? Seems like a very expensive way to obtain a nice view.

 

[Big_Hitter]

Would you make this recommendation for the OP knowing that they don't play golf? Seems like a very expensive way to obtain a nice view.

heck no - does the OP not golf?