Your Input on Teenager/Money Issue

region2 said:
I have followed this discussion with interest. Many great points. I think our kids' college expenses bug us because we were/ are frugal, college expenses are a big black hole, and we have no significant control with how they spend their time and our money.

This open ended obligation without any control is a recipe for bad feelings on both sides, IMO. My college age son likes $400 Gore-Tex jackets. So do I, but I don't buy them and he does. If I were paying his college, I would be either angry at being used, or meddling in his affairs. As it is, I am an interested and hopeful friend and supporter of his aspirations, but on his dime.

I do like the option of paying off his college loans, although I hesitate to do this as Stafford Loans are a very attractive form of debt.

We'll see. If he ever seems even 1/2 as careful about money as I am, maybe I will. I am not holding my breath.

I think that for many, keeping tight control of the purse strings of our age 18+
children is just way to extend our emotional dominion past its natural outdate. My kids could tell me to take a flying F, and there would be no financial repercussions on them.

If I want their affection and respect, I have to earn it as a man, not as a paymaster.

I think we are both proud of this situation.

Ha
 
But we don't really know what TA would do if Jenny called home and said she was changing schools and it was a plan that TA definitely could not agree with.

Now, that will be another interesting thread!!

Long as the new school is cheaper. Ha ha.

No, if that happened I'd have no trouble with it. I've been very hands off on her decisions. We gave approximately zero input when it came to chosing a college. If she called and said she wanted to change from Biomedical Engineering (her current major) to basket weaving I'd say go for it.

I guess it's because I'm confident that she'll do fine at whatever she chooses, but I have no desire to influence her decisions about what she does.
 
OK, now we know! ;) And that's as good a way to handle that hypothesized scenario as anything I could suggest. :D
 
Looking back through this thread I see many of us reading things into each others posts that are probably not there. Several people say they don't like the idea of "uncontrolled" financial support for kids in college (expressing fears of lessons missed, spoiling kids with Lexus SUVs and Gore-Tex pants). Yet none of the "pay-the-costs" folks (like me) actually endorsed uncontrolled spending. We just talk about covering the basics - no extravagances. And it apears that most of us see value in the kids working part time and helping out to a degree.

On the other hand, some of us have intimated that the "don't-coddle-em" crowd is abandoning their kids to mountains of debt and a lifetime of resentment. As I skim through the posts, however, it looks like many, if not most, of them believe they should insure their kids are covered for the basics at a state school or equivalent. They don't actually say they would kick them out to make it on their own.

The only significant difference I see is that some of us view providing financial support during college to be a moral obligation (to the extent we can afford it) and others see it as more of a reward to be earned or a choice to be made.
 
Azanon said:
I chuckle at those that thing that military academies are free. You pay out of your ass every single day, every minute of the day.
In the interest of "fair & balanced" from someone who's not exactly a raging fan of the military-academy system himself, I must admit that USNA hacked out enabled me to lay in a foundation of skills and persistence that got me to ER.

I'm not sure that I would have developed the same set of life skills at CMU or Yale or even Penn State. But judging from my visits to high-school classmates at those institutions, I bet I could have consumed almost as much alcohol. I think USNA provided enough structure to thrive and enough freedom to believe that I was succeeding on my own. I can recognize that now, but it was a tremendous boost back then.

Azanon said:
It is the closest i've come to hell on earth, so far.
Well, Az, I can vouch that if you'd stuck it out through graduation & commissioning then even in the USAF you would have found things closer to hell on earth than the academy. My nephew the Army Ranger can make the same statement about West Point, which is why he finished two tours in Afghanistan before interrupting his tour of Iraq to submit his application to be a plebe. Funny thing, the stress of West Point hasn't bothered his sense of perspective very much. He says the Hudson winters are even warmer than some of the places where he's "camped out".

Azanon said:
The only kind of bitterness I allow myself is the kind i take pleasure in. I'm well aware of the negative health effects of stress, and anything stressful I let go of very quickly for that reason. Trust me, revenge can be and often is very pleasurable.
Az, the point of the other poster is that not every thread on this board is about you or about the setbacks & injustice you experienced all those years ago. Al's question was a great way to get constructive feedback to check his sense of doing what's best for his daughter-- instead of being castigated as a mean nasty parent for not being her understanding friend. Your attitude tells us all far more than your words can describe, and it usually inspires us to smartly about-face in the direction opposite your recommendations.

I'll say it again, ol' buddy, you need help and this board ain't doing it. Talk to someone face-to-face with doctor-patient confidentiality.
 
Al, did you decide what to do?

Yes. I sent her the document below and also the first couple of pages of this discussion (it takes a village forum).

We talked about things on the phone last night. She's generally on board, and we'll see how it goes.

Thanks to all of you for your input.

Code:
Jenny's Budget and Finances for the Remainder of Sophomore Year
Oct 21, 2006

This document describes how we are going to handle your finances for the rest of this year. You and Mom and I will discuss this before we put this into effect.

History

Last year you created your budget for all of freshman year, and you started out with that amount ($1,973). By February that money was used up, in part because you had to pay start up costs for your painting internship (car, insurance, etc.).

We gave you interest-free loans totaling $7,250 to cover your startup costs and summer expenses. This loan was to be paid off in full on Oct. 15, 2006. 

You worked extremely hard with your painting company, but because your expenses were high, you ended up with a net loss for the summer. 

The expenses were high due in part to:

·	High cell phone costs
·	
·	High automobile expenses
·	
·	Overdraft fees
·	
Your income was lower than you expected despite your hard work, in part because you had not fully understood all of the profit sharing agreements.

The bottom line is that you ended up with a loss of about $1,000 for the spring/summer, and were not able to pay off the loans.

Basis of New Financial Arrangement

Last year we gave you a lump sum for the year, and let you manage your expenses. This year we'll do things differently. The new arrangement is based on three things:

1.	Your responsibility for your summer losses
2.	
3.	Your lack of accounting for expenses
4.	
5.	Your attitude about the loan and spending
6.	
Your Responsibility

I do not fault you for not making a profit this summer. You took a risk, and worked very hard. I doubt that you could have worked harder. However, you failed to make money, and you, as an adult, are the one that needs to accept the consequences of that. 

Accounting For Expenses

By failing to keep track of your expenses, you had no idea until September that you were not making enough money to cover your expenses. You also failed to pay attention to the agreements with CWP that dictated how much money you'd receive for each job. Finally, by not balancing your checkbook, you incurred large overdraft fees, and have at least one major expense ($285) for which you cannot account.

Attitude 

When I sent you an email on Sept 8 that summarized your loan amounts, and told you when they were due, you did not reply. When I sent you an email on Oct 14, saying:

The due date for the loan is tomorrow. Can you please pay me back as much as possible, and tell me what the status of future payments is?

you did not reply. Your sentence in an unrelated email on Oct 18, "Oh, and I have no money...." is not a reply to that. 

If in September, you had called and said "Sorry, it looks as if I'm not going to be able pay off the loan" it would have helped .

New Financial Arrangement

Currently you have $119 in your checking account and $500 in your Vanguard money market account. Please confirm the Vanguard amount, then write me a Vanguard check for $400, mail it, and send me an email telling me that it's on its way.

When you receive the check from the insurance company, deposit it and transfer that amount to me. Same for any additional money your receive from CWP.

Here is a suggested budget that I came up with, based in part on the budget you created for yourself last year:

Jenny's Sophomore Year Budget	
		
	Per Month	Per 6.5 Month Period
Travel	0	0
Books	52	340
Laundry	20	
Food (non-meal-plan)	15	
Toiletries	10	
Entertainment	20	
Miscellaneous	50	
Clothing	15	
		
Total	182	
		
Income	288	1875
The income estimate is based on $75 per week, with 25 weeks of work between now and May 9.

Thus, according to this budget, your income will exceed your expenses by $100 each month. 

Every month, you will transfer or mail a check for $50 to me such that it arrives before the first of the month. The first check will be due Nov 10, and every other check will be due on the first of the month. Please send me an email today saying "No Rubfish Removal" to prove to me that you read this document. If you cannot make a payment, let me know in advance. In addition, you will include a statement that shows what you spent money on during the preceding month. The statement should look something like this:

 

which represents your last month of spending.

I recommend that you try to save $50 per month for your next summer startup costs. We will probably not want to loan you money, so saving could be the difference between working in St. Louis or at Aztec grill.

Also, I would like you to read each email that we send you, and reply to it if appropriate.

Summary

I've tried to find a balance between helping with money and letting you take responsibility for it. We will not require you to pay back the entire $7,250 loan as long as you stick to the above arrangement.
 
Sounds like a very fair, honorable, equitable, and (most importantly) fatherly way of handling the matter. Good luck, and hopefully her endeavor last summer will be one of the most valuable things she learned in college. :)

TromboneAl said:
Please send me an email today saying "No Rubfish Removal" to prove to me that you read this document.

LOL....nice way of checking! :)
 
My college budget for incidentals, clothes, dates, snacks, beer and sandwiches etc. over 40 years ago was in the same ballpark as your daughter's is today.

It seems like a very austere budget.

Ha
 
I agree with the austerity comment. I would have been hard pressed to stick to that in 1978. But I think you handled the situation reasonably, given her lack of response to your e-mails. Hope Jenny does too!
 
Right. We'll see what happens. I remember that I was on a stipend of $319 per month in grad school (around '79), and I paid off $100 per month on a loan from my sister. I'm remembering that rent was about $50 and guessing that food was $90/month, so I was spending $79/month on non room and board stuff. Inflation calculator says that's about $220 in today's dollars.

But I sure don't know. I can't wait until her finances and ours are independent!
 
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