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Old 04-23-2018, 03:57 PM   #81
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There are so many ways to get an education WITHOUT huge student loan debt. 1). AP classes in HS that count for college credit=FREE 2). College classes on nights/weekends/online while still in HS=FREE(not always free) 3). Stay at home with parents first year or two/community college=usually cheaper than going off to large state/private school and living in dorms. 4). Going to community college part time while working full time until you figure it out. 5). Military-tons of options here. Active duty, reserves. All fields available. TV production, radio, all medical fields, legal fields, aviation and yes, infantry if you want that. Tuition assistance programs and of course the post 911 GI Bill. Transferable to dependents. 6). Graduate in three years instead of four. 7). Become a TA or dormitory rep. Usually reduced tuition and/or stipend. 8). Get a job at the college (security guard) then apply and get free/reduced tuition because you are an employee. 9). Be an athlete. Some schools even have bowling teams. Maybe not a full ride athletic scholarship but most schools give expanded financial aid packages to athletes-even in obscure sports.
Yup, military is how my Millennials are funding their post-secondary education.

One is already angling for medical school...but if they don't get that they are still guaranteed active duty for several years after graduation.
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Old 04-24-2018, 04:15 AM   #82
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There are so many ways to get an education WITHOUT huge student loan debt.
Yet seven in ten seniors (69%) who graduated from public and nonprofit colleges in 2014 had student loan debt, with an average of $28,950 per borrower. So that makes me question how practicable your "low debt" magic beans are. The reality makes it seem like you're listing a lot of options that few students have a reasonable opportunity to capitalize on. It almost makes it seem like you're trying to cast blame or other aspersions on the majority of students - blaming the victims - seeking to demonize the typical experience and the average reality because it makes clear just how much harder Millennials have it than we did.

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It is a trap but so is everything else in life.
Yes of course but the point is that the reality shows that the traps that Millennials are facing are much worse than the traps we faced. I realize that that is something that troubles us Baby Boomers, because of how it supports the idea that certain types of solutions may be necessary - solutions that are to our detriment.

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Every problem has a solution.
Definitely. The solution, though, will be different depending on whether it is based on a misapprehension of the reality of the problem, as you've outlined with your anecdotal variances, versus based on a balanced, data-based apprehension of the reality of the problem, as I've outlined with my generalized summary.
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Old 04-24-2018, 04:33 AM   #83
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The greatest problem with education is where it is already free. Something is wrong with K-12 education, and it isn't all about money either.
A lot of it is about money, but to see that it is necessary to acknowledge a lot of problems that our society is hell-bent on keeping buried. For example, Atlanta City Schools spent roughly $12996 per student per year in 2013, while Fulton County Schools (the suburban schools around the city, but still in Fulton County) spent $9511. However, that's misleading. The Atlanta City Schools budget has baked into it higher costs of operating, higher costs of security and facility repair/replacement, etc., and generally less money actually devoted to instruction. The knee-jerk reaction we often get, here in Fulton County north of the city, when that's pointed out, is that it is "their fault" for letting things get to how they are. Of course, that's nonsense: Racism, economic injustice, inadequate security, etc., combine to have created a situation within which the beautiful communities north of the city are fueled by an economic engine that has been kept "low cost - high profit" by means of these vectors of systemic injustice.

Most importantly, this all combines to afflict the city school student with an encumbrance while it bestows a gift on the suburban school student, even though both enter the schools ostensibly deserving of an absolutely equal educational experience. Whatever blame or credit one might decide to cast on their parents, the students haven't done anything that warrants the disparity between them at that moment in time. And, of course, this works its way back to birth - two just-born babies surely shouldn't be subject to completely different sets of Monte Carlo simulations of their lives, simply because they were born 15 miles away from each other, but that's the reality of the situation.

So you are correct, it isn't all about the money, but rather is also about the extent to which society is willing to let the differences in those Monte Carlo simulations of newborn babies' lives continue.
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Old 04-27-2018, 04:00 AM   #84
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... the point is that the reality shows that the traps that Millennials are facing are much worse than the traps we faced. I realize that that is something that troubles us Baby Boomers, because of how it supports the idea that certain types of solutions may be necessary - solutions that are to our detriment.
There's a new thread in another forum started last night about how much worse things are for Millennials than it was for us, and a lot of great additional details were shared.

One very important metric is the workforce participation rate. This is superior to the unemployment rate, since the unemployment rate ignores people for whom the employment situation has been so negative for so long that they are no longer looking for work. The workforce participation rate reached a high of about 67% in 2000, and has since declined to about 63%, effectively having wiped out over twenty years of gains between 1980 and 2000.

I mentioned underemployment earlier in the thread. It is another very important metric showing the health of our economy as it pertains to labor, or in this case, the lack thereof. Underemployment is measured by comparing the education level of employees to the education level of the job that they're working. There is always some underemployment, of course, and it always afflicts younger workers (in their 20s) more than older workers (35 and above) but what's telling is the trend. Underemployment for 22 year olds in 2000 was roughly 43% and now exceeds 55% (while during that time period underemployment among 35 year olds has remained steady at about 32%).

Another chilling statistic is that measuring workers who are working part-time but not by choice. In 2000 it was roughly 14% of workers. Even though we're well into the longest economic recovery in recent history, we're still looking at numbers here that are reminiscent of the worst numbers from the 2002-2003 recession, roughly 22%.
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Old 04-27-2018, 05:36 AM   #85
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What is LBYM? Living in the Basement of Your Mother's house?

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Old 04-27-2018, 06:38 AM   #86
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There's a new thread in another forum started last night about how much worse things are for Millennials than it was for us, and a lot of great additional details were shared.

One very important metric is the workforce participation rate. This is superior to the unemployment rate, since the unemployment rate ignores people for whom the employment situation has been so negative for so long that they are no longer looking for work. The workforce participation rate reached a high of about 67% in 2000, and has since declined to about 63%, effectively having wiped out over twenty years of gains between 1980 and 2000.

I mentioned underemployment earlier in the thread. It is another very important metric showing the health of our economy as it pertains to labor, or in this case, the lack thereof. Underemployment is measured by comparing the education level of employees to the education level of the job that they're working. There is always some underemployment, of course, and it always afflicts younger workers (in their 20s) more than older workers (35 and above) but what's telling is the trend. Underemployment for 22 year olds in 2000 was roughly 43% and now exceeds 55% (while during that time period underemployment among 35 year olds has remained steady at about 32%).

Another chilling statistic is that measuring workers who are working part-time but not by choice. In 2000 it was roughly 14% of workers. Even though we're well into the longest economic recovery in recent history, we're still looking at numbers here that are reminiscent of the worst numbers from the 2002-2003 recession, roughly 22%.
bUU, Admittedly I have only read about 50 of your 2028 posts. Can you point me to one that is in any way positive? So far I can't find one. Are you always a negative Nancy or do you only post when you have risen on the wrong side of the bed?
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Old 04-27-2018, 09:39 AM   #87
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bUU, Admittedly I have only read about 50 of your 2028 posts. Can you point me to one that is in any way positive? So far I can't find one. Are you always a negative Nancy or do you only post when you have risen on the wrong side of the bed?
Your comment is rude and uncalled for.

The reality is that the overriding negative perspective in this thread is the unfairly disparaging comments about millennials, which was what prompted my contributions to the thread with regard to millennials in the first place. My comments were the positive ones, pointing out that the disparagement was unjust and explaining why by highlighting the unique challenges that millennials face as compared to what we baby boomers faced.

The fact that you characterized my participation backwards in this thread makes me think that you did so in all the other threads you checked, and perhaps you even saw "positive" and "negative" when such characterizations were inappropriate. Perhaps you simply saw the side you agreed with as positive and any perspective you disagree with as negative. That's human nature. The fact of the matter is that we disagree, and if we disagree about this then it is perhaps likely that we disagree about many things. Please work to see disagreement as disagreement between equally valid perspectives, rather than as black and white positive and negative.
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Old 04-27-2018, 11:42 AM   #88
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The U.S. has about $1.3 trillion in student loan debt. That is a drag on the economy. That is $1.3 trillion not going into the housing market or retirement savings. It is not something that is going to be solved by telling young adults to LBYMs or look for cheaper ways to fund college.
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Old 04-27-2018, 12:01 PM   #89
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The U.S. has about $1.3 trillion in student loan debt. That is a drag on the economy. That is $1.3 trillion not going into the housing market or retirement savings. It is not something that is going to be solved by telling young adults to LBYMs or look for cheaper ways to fund college.
That's another great metric indicating the problem that millennials face. I wonder if anyone can find a source for that metric going back a few decades.

Updated: https://www.motherjones.com/politics...n-debt-charts/

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Are you always a negative Nancy or do you only post when you have risen on the wrong side of the bed?
Rudeness aside, I've actually reviewed the threads I'm participated in this past day or so. In one I'm posting positively in favor of Amazon Prime, while others condemn their recent announcement. In another I'm posting positively in favor of the value delivered by Cable companies and positively in favor of their strategies, while others condemn them, practically categorically. In a third I'm posting in positively favor of using social media to spread the word about great speakers and presentations you are enjoying.

Like I said above, I think you are confusing "disagreeing with you" for being "negative".
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Old 04-27-2018, 12:12 PM   #90
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In the United States there's two things happening:
  • Most recent wealth gains are going to capital owners
  • Inequality is rising


Just look at the evolution of the Gini coefficient. For younger generations this means you are either well-off, or very not so well off:


https://www.statista.com/statistics/...nd-households/


On top of that, the visibility of the well-off has dramatically increased. We don't compare ourselves to the Joneses anymore of one village, but of all the Joneses in the country or even world.
https://waitbutwhy.com/2013/09/why-g...e-unhappy.html
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Old 04-27-2018, 12:13 PM   #91
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The U.S. has about $1.3 trillion in student loan debt. That is a drag on the economy. That is $1.3 trillion not going into the housing market or retirement savings.
As these former students repay their loans, the banks are loaning the money out again. That makes it available to "go into the housing market" or to be loaned to businesses for expansion, productivity improvements, etc.

The money was loaned to students, generally under govt subsidized terms. The students spent it, and the artificially large flow of money helped (and still helps) to drive inflation in the cost of higher education. That was the most appropriate time for concern about whether the money (the money loaned and the govt money that backed/subsidized it) was being put to best use, and whether it was helping the economy. It undoubtedly did increase the number of college-educated baristas.
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