Alternative, Reduced Expense "Investments"

[TromboneAl]

We're almost totally flourescent. Many of the lights have gotten a lot dimmer over the years, and some take a while to come on/get bright. I think the newer ones are better.

I've violated the rules by using them in the bathroom (not supposed to use them in a humid environment) and in automatic light fixtures (e.g. with motion sensors) with no problems.

BTW, I've found that putting a motion sensor light by the door from the house into the garage is a nice bother saver.

 

[brewer12345]

I've violated the rules by using them in the bathroom (not supposed to use them in a humid environment) and in automatic light fixtures (e.g. with motion sensors) with no problems.

Somehow I'm not surprised that a man with a stuffed beaver violates light fixtures.

Al, have you tried *** in dimmers? Supposedly you shouldn't do it, but the dimmer compatible *** are absurdly expensive.

 

[haha]

I belong to an auto maintainence discussion board and there are members who routinely get 300K miles from Toyota/Nissan/Honda engines. These guys normally run a synthetic oil with a good filter. By good filter I mean anything but Fram.
........#.......

Poundkey, could you give a link to that board?

Ha

 

[cute fuzzy bunny]

We're almost totally flourescent.

Must be tough to sleep in the same room with you folks

Pretty much all fluorescent here, as my wife has transformed me into a 70 year old guy with his pants pulled up to his armpits yelling "turn off these damn lights! And you kids get the hell off my lawn!". Bought some more expensive ones early on, then the costco/sams club humungo pack that came to a couple of bucks each. Never had one break yet. The original ones from about 10 years ago (long tubes about 5-6" long) are garage lights now in the garage door openers with the newer curlique models in the house fixtures. Only thing I dont have them in is the fixture with the dimmer, which apparently requires a special dimmer bulb as they require a certain amount of current to 'start' and a lower amount to continue running, and a dimmer may take you below those thresholds, which might cause the bulb to die. Have had two of them with a low 'hum', which I relocated to the patio or the garage where I dont care.

Looked at the solar thingamabob. California has some very nice rebates. IIRC it was going to cost me about 15-20k to install the system and it'd save me about $700-800 a year in electricity tops. I was looking at about 12-15 years to pay back the original investment, and some projections said the panels would need to be replaced around that time, maybe a few years past. Realtors were mixed on the benefits of having a solar system...a few said it would actually detract from the value of the home due to cosmetic features and that 'people dont understand them'. At best they said the value would be neutral, so no capital benefit when selling, maybe a loss.

Theres also the problem that about 85% of my roof faces east/west and the big piece that faces south is on the east side of the house, below the central ridge, so it'd lose sun at about 2-3pm.

I decided to wait until the systems are less expensive and produce more electricity per square foot. I like the looks of the pva cells that replace concrete roof tiles. When I can install most of it myself, except for the main electrical connection that requires an electrician, and it starts paying for itself in a couple of years, i'm there.

Same thing with the hybrids. No payback with the current models unless you drive a lot and keep the car for a long time, then you're breaking even and possibly buying some unknown long term reliability problems. Even presuming gas keeps going up.

I read a fascinating story about a guy who used a two prong solution to cheap heat. He set up a large solar water heating system, and it pumps the hot water underneath his flooring, sort of like the radiant heat systems. He also put in a large solar room/greenhouse at the south side of the house with a circulation fan to rotate air from that through the house.

He installed a small wood stove as a backup, but says he's never needed it for heat. The system also provides all of his hot water. I'm betting he lives in a warmer climate though, I cant imagine this setup working well in new england.

 

[TromboneAl]

Al, have you tried *** in dimmers?

No. I'm sure that won't work.

...with a circulation fan to rotate air from that through the house.

... I cant imagine this setup working well in new england.

Right. I've spent a lot of time trying to move heated air around the house but with only limited success. I have a fan for getting the heat from the wood stove in the living room into the upstairs. It only works well if there's a big temperature difference (for example, 78 in the living room and 64 in the upstairs rooms).

 

[Poundkey]

Wow! Quite a positive response on the energy saving lightbulbs.....will be looking into those for sure.
eridanus mentioned solar screens. That's something else I've been curious about. The ones I'm seeing around town are a dark screen material (almost black) and supposedly reflect heat and UV.....I think. I've never talked to anyone about whether they've actually run the numbers on cost effectiveness. Summers in Texas are brutal!!

.......#.......

 

[Poundkey]

Poundkey, could you give a link to that board?

Ha

Sure...

http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi

........#......

 

[cute fuzzy bunny]

Other thread reminded me of a good one...

Pick a utility, say phone, cable, high speed internet, satellite, etc. This doesnt work with electricity or water where there is no competitive option. Find a suitable replacement for them. Call the existing provider and tell them you want to schedule a disconnection. 95% of the time you'll be connected with a 'retention specialist' who will give you a better offer to stay.

When they finally just unhook you, go to the competitor for their 12 months at half price or three free months deal, then when you've been away from your original provider for long enough to qualify for their 'new customer deals', which is usually anywhere from a month to a year, go back to box one and repeat the process.

I havent paid full price for phone, satellite, cable or HSI in the longest time. I've occasionally had to actually do a disconnection/reconnection thing, but its not that big of a hassle. My old house had a cable connection, and both a directv and dish network dish hung on it by the time I left...so changing was usually done with a phone call.

I also make a point of calling to complain about service outages or other problems and the CS reps are usually quick to give a free month or some lagniappe. I got six months of $20 off my directv bill when the installation got rescheduled.

I did the solar screens too, but in a slightly different way. A lot of folks just get the solar screen materal, box it into screen frames and screw or slide those into the windows. I found a bunch of "coolaroo" roll down screens that mount to the outside of the windows. I roll them down in the summer and roll them up in the winter. I had to drill a few holes in the stucco and mount some attaching hardware, but it only took about 10 minutes per window. I think I paid about $15 a pop for them on sale. Using these, the sun never even hits the window, stops 2" away and has the opportunity to dissipate.

 

[scrinch]

There are three things I wish I'd done differently in our solar water system:

Nords, thanks for the benefit of your experience. Sounds like you have learned a lot about solar over the past several years.
1-I'll be putting together a drainback system since we get sub-freezing weather in the winter here. So when the pump switches off, all the water drains back into the tank and there is no potential for convection.
2-I looked into getting a DC pump, but they don't develop enough head to lift water from the tank to the panels each time the pump starts up in a drainback system. Instead I'm using a 1/25hp Taco pump. It only draws about 0.6 amps (80 watts) when it's on. Taco now makes these pumps with integral flowcheck valves just for the purpose you describe (google Taco IFC).
3-I found 4 4x10 panels that a local farmer had in his barn for $200. They needed to be cleaned up, but tested watertight. I plan to use 3 of them with an 80 gallon storage tank. By using a lot of panel for the tank size I expect that the pump won't be coming on as much in the summer, but should still be fairly effective on sunny fall/winter/spring days. For $50/panel I can afford the extra collector area, and in this system taking the panel out of the system is as simple as shutting off the pump at a set storage tank temperature.
4-I'll definitely be using anti-scald valves in the system. I plan to use two....a primary and a backup.

 

[Nords]

Nords, thanks for the benefit of your experience. Sounds like you have learned a lot about solar over the past several years.

Thanks, but actually the learning has all been hypothetical until we've connected the last circuit/pipe and thrown the switch. Living with the system has been far more educational than any research. I never thought I'd say to our kid "Hey, if you're gonna use the water, use the HOT water!!"

Besides the experience, another reason to build incrementally is for the tax credits. If you install the entire $20K system in one year you get one $2000 federal credit. If you install a $10K system in December and upgrade it in January, you get two $2000 credits. (Perfectly legal.) If you can add in state, utility, & locality credits then it becomes a significant financial issue. It's also the reason that the installers are so busy the last & first quarters of the year.

Our biggest lesson has been that it's far more profitable to reduce consumption than to raise generation. Another surprise has been how hot our water heater gets-- insulating blankets & pipe wrap just move the hot parts out to the exposed relief piping & pump casing. The hot water may be free but our garage is probably radiating enough IR now to show up on satellites... if I ever decide to upgrade to a 120-gal model then it's going outside.

One final piece of advice that's rarely mentioned-- a water conditioner. That depends on the mineral content of the water in your area. We like them just for the reduced cleaning & soap use, and if you're already gonna rip apart your water system then it's not much more hassle to add a conditioner.

1-I'll be putting together a drainback system since we get sub-freezing weather in the winter here.  So when the pump switches off, all the water drains back into the tank and there is no potential for convection. 

Yikes, from what I've read about those (and antifreeze) I think I'd decide to just give up and move south. ("Honey, does the water taste funny to you?")

2-I looked into getting a DC pump, but they don't develop enough head to lift water from the tank to the panels each time the pump starts up in a drainback system. Instead I'm using a 1/25hp Taco pump. It only draws about 0.6 amps (80 watts) when it's on. Taco now makes these pumps with integral flowcheck valves just for the purpose you describe (google Taco IFC).

Good point, our system stays full. I was surprised at how little head our pump actually develops. I remember thinking "ruh-roh" when we tested it but it's worked fine.

I don't know whether our pump has an internal flow check or not-- and I don't care since it's the coldest part of the system at the bottom of the tank. The hot water is forced down into the tank from the roof and then simply rises back up the pipe through the temperature difference. Check valves in the pump don't affect that. But I am going to look into DC pumps again someday so I'll need a check valve that works when it's mounted right on top of the water heater's hot pipe.

3-I found 4 4x10 panels that a local farmer had in his barn for $200. They needed to be cleaned up, but tested watertight. I plan to use 3 of them with an 80 gallon storage tank. By using a lot of panel for the tank size I expect that the pump won't be coming on as much in the summer, but should still be fairly effective on sunny fall/winter/spring days. For $50/panel I can afford the extra collector area, and in this system taking the panel out of the system is as simple as shutting off the pump at a set storage tank temperature.

I would think that more panels for a smaller tank means that the pump would rarely turn off! But it depends on your insolation & panel orientation. Our two panels would already heat the tank over 170 degrees if our controller didn't shut off then, and I'm sure we've been approaching the pressure setpoint on the panel relief valves. I don't know how old your panels are but I've seen new ones retail at $1600 each (plus S&H).

4-I'll definitely be using anti-scald valves in the system. I plan to use two....a primary and a backup.

At some point the expense & mechanical reliability of a valve outweighs its safety features. Two valves give you twice as many opportunities to leak, although it makes for a very interesting soldering project...

 

[Martha]

I like good shoes. www.sierratradingpost.com has a lot of Birkenstocks on sale right now. http://tinyurl.com/rga9k

(not really lbyms)

 

[haha]

Sure...

http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi

........#......

Thank you.

Ha

 

[free4now]

I drive a Prius. I wouldn't call it an LBYM vehicle, but it is surprisingly thrifty in some ways. Consumer reports recently changed their story on hybrids and admitted they can save money in the first five years:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11637968/

That report didn't consider the effects of the current tax credits ($3150 credit right now for buying a new Prius). That combined with the currently higher gas costs probably reduces payback to just a few years for most people. Since most of us keep our cars much longer than that, it's a pretty safe bet that it'll pay back even if gas prices go down.

Another cool thing: because of the regenerative engine braking in the Prius, the disc and drum brakes don't get much use and can last twice as long as in regular cars. I notice there's hardly any brake dust on the wheels when I clean it. I figure this effect compensates me for the increased maintenance costs from having to bring it to a dealer for major work.

I will be the first one to admit that there are cheaper ways to own a vehicle, and that my primary motivations for buying the Prius were the environmental and "that's cool" factors. It's a pleasant side benefit to save a little money on gas.

 

[VoyT]

We've recently switched over to fluroescent .. Poundkey, do be aware that some bulbs give off a yellowish light, others are the "daylight" version. Don't mix

BTW: Anyone tried using one of these bulbs in a lamp hooked up to a timer?

Other stuff: Woodstove, switched from cable to DISH, switched to cheaper pay-as-you-go cell phones. We did the promotional DSL price with SBC last year -- just renewed with AT&T for the upgrade, which is a couple of bucks cheaper per month.

 

[REWahoo]

BTW: Anyone tried using one of these bulbs in a lamp hooked up to a timer?

Yes, no problem.

 

[bpp]

My wife is ten times more frugal than I am, and she can't stand the compact fluorescents, mainly because they don't go to full brightness instantly. But this thread has me thinking that maybe I'll give them another shot.

 

[VoyT]

thanks wahoo, I may give that a shot .. considering that the lamp is the one that gets the most use.

I had read that the florescent's delay in coming on, and its "warm-up" to full brightness is one of the reasons it saves energy -- that the "instant on" of regular bulbs requires a big shot of energy. True?

 

[REWahoo]

I had read that the florescent's delay in coming on, and its "warm-up" to full brightness is one of the reasons it saves energy -- that the "instant on" of regular bulbs requires a big shot of energy. True?

I don't think so, but I'm no engine-near. According to this website, it's becasue incandescent lighting has to heat a filament hot enough to glow brightly (requiring lots of 'juice' to do so) while a fluorescent bulb passes electrons through a gas, getting the stuff coating the inside of the bulb all excited and causing it to glow (requiring only about 25% as much 'juice' to produce the equivalent amount of light).

Personally, I think it's done by combining swamp gas, mirrors and fairy dust.

 

[BigMoneyJim]

My wife is ten times more frugal than I am, and she can't stand the compact fluorescents, mainly because they don't go to full brightness instantly. But this thread has me thinking that maybe I'll give them another shot.

Some of the cheaper ones still brighten slowly, but they come on to a reasonable brightness instantly unlike the older ones.

I had read that the florescent's delay in coming on, and its "warm-up" to full brightness is one of the reasons it saves energy -- that the "instant on" of regular bulbs requires a big shot of energy. True?

I doubt it. I expect the heat output of an incandescent is where all the extra energy goes.

 

[bpp]

VoyT:

I had read that the florescent's delay in coming on, and its "warm-up" to full brightness is one of the reasons it saves energy -- that the "instant on" of regular bulbs requires a big shot of energy. True?

I doubt it. I expect the heat output of an incandescent is where all the extra energy goes.

I think you're both right. Incandescents put out a broad spectrum of radiation, lots of which is outside the visible range and doesn't contribute to brightness. Fluorescents put all their energy into a few spectral lines, which are in the visible range by design. (Ultraviolet light generated in the gas excites phosphors coating the glass, which generate light at certain visible lines, dependent on the type of bulb.) So fluorescents are more efficient than incandescents.

The slow ramp up is because the bulb has to reach some optimal temperature for maximum efficiency. I think that traditional fluorescents compensate for this, using more energy in the first minute of operation to excite the gas than later. Compact fluorescents don't don't seem to bother with this, which saves energy (compared to traditional fluorescents), but leads to a slowly rising brightness. So the lack of instant-full-brightness makes compact fluorescents more energy-saving than traditional fluorescents.

Or something like that. Corrections welcome.

Bpp

 

[Poundkey]

Well, we just made a trip to Home Depot for various supplies. I decided to pick up some fluorescents and give them a try. All they stocked were bulbs labeled "soft white". The light from them seems to be about the same as the incandescents. These come on instantly when I flip the switch. The package of 6 (60 watt light output) cost $10. Not bad.
I also checked into the heat reflective screens. They have the frame material and rolls of screen to cut and DIY for about $20 per window (screen included)...... or the frame kits (easier to put together) for about $10. You still have to buy the screen material separately and install it. No kits in the size I needed though. I may try do this project before the heat sets in.

This has been an interesting discussion. I've enjoyed it.

......#......

 

[Nords]

This has been an interesting discussion. I've enjoyed it.

Profitable, too!

Just send a small share to Dory's server fund via PayPal...

 

[Surfdaddy]

It's my understanding that the reason incandescents are so inefficient is that they are actually heaters that put off light as a by-product (no, that's not a joke). And the light output drops quickly with reduced voltage, before much heat does. What this means is that when you dim the bulbs, they don't save nearly the energy percent as the drop in light. So you're probably using 80% of the electricity to get half the light.

 

[free4now]

Yep, incandescents are inefficient simply because they convert most of their energy to heat.  There's no big spike of power usage upon turning them on.  That rumor probably got started because the old fashioned long tube flourescent lights used ballasts that did use a lot of power for a little while to start them up.   Newer flourescent systems are very energy efficient even upon startup, so there's no need to be concerned about power waste upon turnon.  The only concern is that the startup process stresses them a bit and lowers the bulb lifetime, but not enough that it's anything to be worried about. 

Note that when it's cold out and you have the heater on, you are using the incandescent heat so it's not a total loss.   Heating with gas is cheaper in most places, but heating with incandescent lights is probably just as efficient as heating with an electric space heater.

I love the idea of compact flourescents but I detest the quality of light they put out.  As others have mentioned the output is only in a few frequencies (colors) of light, whereas incandescents have a smooth output at all frequencies in the visible spectrum.  This means that colors look different, not as natural, with flourescents.   Also flourescents pulse the light on and off like a movie projector, but incandescents are steady.  Most of the time this strobing effect isn't a problem since the rate is fast enough that the human vision system integrates it.   But sometimes the strobing is noticeable, especially when I'm tired or looking at a flourescent light out of my peripheral vision which is more sensitive to movement and pulsing. 

I just don't feel like I'm at "home" with flourescents, so most lights in my place are halogen (incandescent).   They are improving in both the color rendition and strobing, so maybe in a decade they will be good enough that I'll be comfortable with them.  I suppose I should do a formal calculation to see how much I'm paying for my visual comfort.


On another note, this thread reminded me I needed to check for long distance deals.  For about 5 years I've been paying 4 cents a minute with Covista, but after googling 'long distance' today I found a place that does 2.5 cents a minute, so I'm switching.  These rates are with no monthly fees.   Long distance seems to be one of the few areas in life where there's no quality penalty to saving money.  The supercheap companies are just as reliable and clear as the big names, in my experience.  Everything is digital between the local switches now, and the little companies just lease their bandwidth from the big players, so you don't have to worry much about getting a bad line.

 

[free4now]

Another way to save money on high speed internet is to share it. I share a wifi connection with my neighbor in the condo next to me, and we split the bill. I pay $23/mo which is about the same as if I switched every year to whoever had the best deal, but I don't have to hassle with switching.