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Old 04-28-2010, 07:27 PM   #41
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Who is PIC?

I like to think I know the leading majority of firms offering advice in Canada and PIC rings no bells.
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Old 04-28-2010, 07:31 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by clifp View Post
Since you can rebuild engines, I assume you must be a car guy.
I've also renovated homes, built airplanes, and installed institutional kitchens. I'd say I'm more mechanically inclined since my mind tends to work that way.


As for your analogy, yes you could join an automotive forum and get advice for free and as I’ve given on how to repair there car. That's more cut and dry though, in other words, if you own a corvette and you want to diagnose a master cylinder problem I can tell you exactly what to look for so you can diagnose it yourself. I can also help you with the lingo when you talk to your mechanic and be able to sound as though you’re not a push over so to speak. Or you could tell me your location and I can find a fellow member to either meet you a service station and talk to the mechanic of your choice (on your behalf) or a center will be recommended and we can walk you through the process. I've repaired new auto forum members cars for free and other members have done the same. I don't see any need to spend $300.00 when there are other avenues you can choose from.

When you relate this to investing your own money, I've joined many financial forums and am still a member but when asked to review my portfolio or ask for recommendations, I get answers like:

It depends on

Your risk level
Whether you want mutual funds or stocks
Long term or short term.
How much you want to remove every year
The amount you want to invest
How much you want to leave in cash
And many others

After I've answered each and every question I never got the advice I was looking for. To me financial forums aren't as cut and dry as auto forums, mind you it depends on the individual forums. If someone can recommend a financial forum that I’m not already a member of that isn’t to hard on newbies I’d be more then willing to join.

I can still remember driving 1.5 hrs to help a new auto forum member repair a no start in there driveway, since they needed the car to start a new job 4 days later. They're still a member and we've remained friends.

I know I've gone way off topic but to me I've found the financial forums not as helpful as I had hoped therefore I'm willing to pay someone to invest some of my money until I'm comfortable doing it all on my own, this is after they’ve proven they can outperform me.

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Who is PIC?
Sorry kumquat, PIC is Private Investment Council, you have to have a minimum of $500,000.00 with TD Canada Trust in order to join. Many other institutions offer this personalized investment service, where as you speak to the person purchasing the stocks for you, no mutual funds no MIR fees and they will change depending on market, risk level or leave if you so choose. When the market was going down they advised that I cash some funds and place in bonds and rebuy back when the market was more towards the bottom and we did with 25% of the portfolio. That's the type of advice I'm willing to pay for. At one point I was dissastisfied with the return only to find it was in holding and awaiting to buy back in.

Sorry can't get to technical since I don't know the lingo.

As for this thread, I think it's run it's course for me, Earl E Retyre good luck with your decision.

I hope I was able to show a different side of the equation.

By for now.
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Old 04-28-2010, 07:55 PM   #43
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Clif, that's a great car analogy!

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Originally Posted by Earl E Retyre View Post
... although, I am not sure I should be taking financial suggestions from someone with the tag name "IndependentlyPoor" .
Don't feel bad, IP, you can reciprocate with the Wile E Coyote jokes...

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After I've answered each and every question I never got the advice I was looking for. To me financial forums aren't as cut and dry as auto forums, mind you it depends on the individual forums. If someone can recommend a financial forum that Iím not already a member of that isnít to hard on newbies Iíd be more then willing to join.
I sure hope you find a financial advisor who asks different questions than a discussion board.

Another option might be to spend $39 for a three-month account with FinancialEngines.com, where you can fiddle with the Q&A to your heart's content, or an immensly comprehensive $150 financial-planning program like ESPlanner.

Another issue is that there's no single answer to the problems you seek to solve. And on this board, if you get 10 responses they're likely to have between eight and 12 answers...

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Originally Posted by My Dream View Post
... therefore I'm willing to pay someone to invest some of my money until I'm comfortable doing it all on my own, this is after theyíve proven they can outperform me.
If you can invest in any ol' index, then why should they have to outperform you? Their real competition is Vanguard or a basket of ETFs.
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Old 04-28-2010, 09:02 PM   #44
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That's more cut and dry though, in other words, if you own a corvette and you want to diagnose a master cylinder problem I can tell you exactly what to look for so you can diagnose it yourself. ......
I am a bit of a car guy, so to use your example. Want to fix a master cylinder? There's only one or two things that can be wrong (at least with my old Brits): Bore is corroded or rubbers are worn. To fix, hone if possible & new rubbers.



Quote:
Originally Posted by My Dream View Post
When you relate this to investing your own money, I've joined many financial forums and am still a member but when asked to review my portfolio or ask for recommendations, I get answers like:

It depends on

Your risk level
Whether you want mutual funds or stocks
Long term or short term.
How much you want to remove every year
The amount you want to invest
How much you want to leave in cash
And many others

After I've answered each and every question I never got the advice I was looking for. To me financial forums aren't as cut and dry as auto forums, mind you it depends on the individual forums. If someone can recommend a financial forum that Iím not already a member of that isnít to hard on newbies Iíd be more then willing to join.
Want to fix your finances? Depends on a lot of things, including risk tolerance. There are no absolutes. How much are you willing to lose? How much do you hope to gain?

There are no absolutes, or right answers. You have to determine your needs. You can pay someone to tell you he's doing what you want, but if you can't answer the questions and see if he is following the answers, you're wasting you money taking a lot on faith.

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Originally Posted by My Dream View Post
Sorry kumquat, PIC is Private Investment Council, you have to have a minimum of $500,000.00 with TD Canada Trust in order to join.
While Canada's big banks aren't the worst around, they are far from the best. It may make you feel exclusive to be a PIC customer but remember there are many others out there who are better and may be cheaper. That being said, I'm not about to give 1% (or whatever) annually to anyone. They ain't that good.

To get back to the car analogy, YMMV
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Old 04-29-2010, 12:00 AM   #45
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I
As for your analogy, yes you could join an automotive forum and get advice for free and as I’ve given on how to repair there car. That's more cut and dry though, in other words, if you own a corvette and you want to diagnose a master cylinder problem I can tell you exactly what to look for so you can diagnose it yourself. I can also help you with the lingo when you talk to your mechanic and be able to sound as though you’re not a push over so to speak. Or you could tell me your location and I can find a fellow member to either meet you a service station and talk to the mechanic of your choice (on your behalf) or a center will be recommended and we can walk you through the process. I've repaired new auto forum members cars for free and other members have done the same. I don't see any need to spend $300.00 when there are other avenues you can choose from.

To me financial forums aren't as cut and dry as auto forums, mind you it depends on the individual forums. If someone can recommend a financial forum that I’m not already a member of that isn’t to hard on newbies I’d be more then willing to join.

I know I've gone way off topic but to me I've found the financial forums not as helpful as I had hoped therefore I'm willing to pay someone to invest some of my money until I'm comfortable doing it all on my own, this is after they’ve proven they can outperform me.



As for this thread, I think it's run it's course for me, Earl E Retyre good luck with your decision.

I hope I was able to show a different side of the equation.

By for now.
I think you may very well be right. I am willing to spend an hour or so research explaining something to newbie on the forum, but I'd try the line at driving to help them.

You are absolutely correct that stuff is more cut and dried on automotive forum. Sure there maybe areas of disagreement how often do you really need to change your oil, the best after market turbo charger etc. But by and large a master cylinder is either working or it is broken. Replacing the cylinder either fixed the problem with the brakes or didn't.

Virtually nothing is that straight forward in the financial world. In fact, there is a lot more agreement on this forum as what not to do then what to do.

So when a new person, posts my "Amerprise adviser suggested I buy an Equity Index Annuity for my IRA," we can all collective shout NO DONT DO THAT and here is why. However, when the new person ask well what should I do instead. We will ask well it depends on and ask a bunch of question like you were asked and answered.

So here is a few dirty little secrets about financial advisers including folks like myself who play one on the internet. We really don't know the answers. So in a lot ways it doesn't matter how you answer the question. If Bill and Joe are both competent advisers and Susie goes to Bob says that she 40 and conservative investor and want to retire at at 65 and take out $50,0000/year, and Cindy goes to Joe and says the same thing they make get the different advice, if Cindy say she is aggressive investor. Cindy and Susie may indeed with the same advice. . So who is right Bob or Joe? The truthful answer would be comeback in 25 years and we MAY be able to tell you.

If at this point if you decide, my god you folks are pretty much useless, I can't say I'd blame you... However, what we can tell is we know something about the other financial advisers the vast majority aren't any smarter than we are, if you are lucky they just charge money for same advice we give for free.

Broadly speaking financial advisers follow into four categories.

1. The liars who tell you they can make you more money than the markets.
2. People who tell you the same thing, but are too stupid to know they are lying.
3. Folks who have learned a few things about taxes and investments, and will keep you from making bonehead financial moves.
4. The folks who are actually talented investors who can beat the market.

The vast majority of financial helpers fall in categories 1 or 2, we have a few #3 on the forums, and we can help you find other in your areas.

As for the #4, there is an on-going debate if anybody other than Warren Buffett who qualifies.

Quote:
'm willing to pay someone to invest some of my money until I'm comfortable doing it all on my own, this is after they’ve proven they can outperform me.
Good for you for making him prove it. Here is the rub, because so much of investing is luck this is really hard. The adviser who's client gave him a million March 2007, looks like an idiot, the adviser who's client gave him a million March 2009, looks like a genius. The reality is one much luckier than the other.

In fact, in order to prove that your adviser is outperforming some very simple investment ideas (stick 1/2 your money in the Vanguard Total Stock Market Index fund and the other 1/2 in the Vanguard Total Bond fund, every year even the two amounts up.) you actually need a very deep and sophisticated understanding of investing..
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Old 04-29-2010, 12:00 AM   #46
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I am a bit of a car guy, so to use your example. Want to fix a master cylinder? There's only one or two things that can be wrong (at least with my old Brits): Bore is corroded or rubbers are worn. To fix, hone if possible & new rubbers.
Oh, so reluctant to introduce such a tangent -- a friend in University 35 years ago had an MG with brake problems in the master cylinder that he solved with a Trojan prophylactic.

Who wants gum?

OK -- Back on topic...
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Old 04-29-2010, 06:13 AM   #47
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DW is one of those that is not suited to managing money. She heard about a Morgan Stanley advisor at work and he met with us last week. DW thinks he is the greatest, so I gave in and we rolled over our IRA's to him. Only about $120k - so we'll see how he does with that. Morgan Stanley charges 1% of assets as 0.25% per quarter. He said he uses mostly index funds. Heck I can do that. I'm going with Vanguard for my 4001k rollover and other stuff.
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Old 04-29-2010, 06:31 AM   #48
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If I were to ask members on this forum, what is more difficult, doing your own investing or rebuilding an engine? Building a house or managing your own money?
I learned over many years what I needed to do to invest/manage my $$$ on my own.

I am not mechanically "enabled" (e.g. I'm all thumbs).

For what I've saved in getting a FA to manage my portfolio, I can pay somebody else to build an engine/house for me (and I did...)

Different strokes...
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Old 04-29-2010, 07:23 AM   #49
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I think we of the forum tend to forget that there is a large swath of the populace that is positively phobic about money and investments. They view it as mysterious and/or scary and therefore best left to experts (the way I feel about plumbing and electric wiring). They will never feel comfy managing their money and most won't dream of it.

I think most of these people either get fleeced, leave a lot of money on the table, or blow themselves up, which is a shame. I toy with the idea of a financial planning business when I ESR, but I am not sure I want to market against the flash b@stards and liars. What would be a reasonable flat annual fee? A thousand bucks a year regardless of portfolio size sound reasonable?
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Old 04-29-2010, 10:50 AM   #50
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DW is one of those that is not suited to managing money. She heard about a Morgan Stanley advisor at work and he met with us last week. DW thinks he is the greatest, so I gave in and we rolled over our IRA's to him. Only about $120k - so we'll see how he does with that. Morgan Stanley charges 1% of assets as 0.25% per quarter. He said he uses mostly index funds. Heck I can do that. I'm going with Vanguard for my 4001k rollover and other stuff.
Brings back memories of the old days when there was no such thing as self-service gas stations. Agreed. Heck, I'm happy pumping my own gas and cleaning my own windows and save the $$. How difficult can that be?
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Old 04-29-2010, 11:11 AM   #51
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Only about $120k -
Yeah, chump change.
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Old 04-29-2010, 11:59 AM   #52
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My finance professor, one of the best and most entertaining profs I've ever had, said hire an advisor if you need someone to hold your hand.
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Old 04-29-2010, 03:06 PM   #53
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I think we of the forum tend to forget that there is a large swath of the populace that is positively phobic about money and investments. They view it as mysterious and/or scary and therefore best left to experts (the way I feel about plumbing and electric wiring). They will never feel comfy managing their money and most won't dream of it.

I think most of these people either get fleeced, leave a lot of money on the table, or blow themselves up, which is a shame. I toy with the idea of a financial planning business when I ESR, but I am not sure I want to market against the flash b@stards and liars. What would be a reasonable flat annual fee? A thousand bucks a year regardless of portfolio size sound reasonable?
Brewer is correct. There is a large part of the population (including many wealthy people) that just are afraid or unwilling to learn about investments. While it might be nice for people here to talk about not having to pay people for investing help, the fact is that a lot of individuals make very poor decisions. It doesn't matter if you're saving 100bps a year if you panicked and sold all your equities in Feb of 2010.

In theory then an hourly fee only advisor would be a perfect solution for those who are slightly more comfortable. The problem here is that it's a near impossible business to make profitable. The overhead of being a registered investment advisor (fee based) is significant on the order of $50,000 a year for filings, registration, record retention, and liability insurance. I can't see how you could make it on $1K per client unless you had a lot of money to burn. In addition, as you mentioned most of the effective marketing takes place on the golf course, church, etc where it is a bloodsport. Especially when a large part of this population still wants to believe in the role of the advisor as somebody to beat the market. What a good advisor brings is perspective from having seen hundreds or thousands of situations. They keep people (or try) from making stupid mistakes.
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Old 04-29-2010, 03:25 PM   #54
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I suspect I know the response I am going to get, but need some advice. I just met with a Financial Advisor at Chase who would charge fees to advise and actively manage my portfolio with the following rates:
first $250k 1.6% fee
next $250k 1.35% fee
next $500k 1.1% fee
over $1M .85% fee

By paying these rates I pay no additional fees to purchase any individual investments and they are not incented to sell me any particular funds or make me want to trade often just to make commissions.

I am about to sell a second house which will bring in $575k lump sum cash. Plus I have other investments currently with Fidelity at around $425. So, we are talking about $1M to manage for now. Probably add another $1M over the next few years.

Per advise from this site, I am starting to read some books - Asset Allocation and Boglehead. Part of me says I should just do what the book says and diversify, purchasing no load funds (such as Vanguard) where I can and rebalance myself every 6 months. But part of me says that I really do not know what I am doing and I should pay the fee for a little while and learn. According to the financial advisor, of course, the fee would pay for itself since my portfolio would earn more than the 1+% fee.

OK ... let me have it ...
Chase is way overpriced and has limited options to invest in. Ask the advisor if he can sell ETF's and charge you 40 bp on the $1 million......I would be interested in what he says.............
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Old 04-29-2010, 03:28 PM   #55
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I think we of the forum tend to forget that there is a large swath of the populace that is positively phobic about money and investments. They view it as mysterious and/or scary and therefore best left to experts (the way I feel about plumbing and electric wiring). They will never feel comfy managing their money and most won't dream of it.

I think most of these people either get fleeced, leave a lot of money on the table, or blow themselves up, which is a shame. I toy with the idea of a financial planning business when I ESR, but I am not sure I want to market against the flash b@stards and liars. What would be a reasonable flat annual fee? A thousand bucks a year regardless of portfolio size sound reasonable?
Good luck with that.between E&O insurance, licenses on all the state you sell in, etc, etc...........you are looking a bare bones cost of probably $12-$15,000 a year. based on what I read here, likely NONE of your clients would be like the folks on here, who think a free plan from a Vanguard CFP or "advisor" is unbiased and meaningful..........
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Old 04-29-2010, 03:37 PM   #56
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Old 04-29-2010, 04:20 PM   #57
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Good luck with that.between E&O insurance, licenses on all the state you sell in, etc, etc...........you are looking a bare bones cost of probably $12-$15,000 a year. based on what I read here, likely NONE of your clients would be like the folks on here, who think a free plan from a Vanguard CFP or "advisor" is unbiased and meaningful..........
When I first joined this forum, I had signed up for on-line Certified Financial Planner course, with the thought of doing exactly what Brewer was discussing charging $1,000 for the initial fee and than $500/year. After discussing it with FD, Sarah, as well as former boss who is a CFP, I realized that it isn't economically viable.

In truth helping somebody set up a Couch Potato portfolio, nagging them every year to rebalance, running numbers on FIRECalc and teaching them how to use it, will save 90% of upper-middle income folks way more than $1,000.

Convincing them that investing can be that simple and getting someone to pay you a $1,000 for that advice is much much harder.
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Old 04-29-2010, 10:52 PM   #58
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DW is one of those that is not suited to managing money. She heard about a Morgan Stanley advisor at work and he met with us last week. DW thinks he is the greatest, so I gave in and we rolled over our IRA's to him. Only about $120k - so we'll see how he does with that. Morgan Stanley charges 1% of assets as 0.25% per quarter. He said he uses mostly index funds. Heck I can do that. I'm going with Vanguard for my 4001k rollover and other stuff.
Here's a recent thread about a Morgan Stanley client that perhaps your wife might not mind reading: Bogleheads :: View topic - Help me save mother-in-law from Morgan Stanley
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Old 04-30-2010, 05:46 AM   #59
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Here's a recent thread about a Morgan Stanley client that perhaps your wife might not mind reading: Bogleheads :: View topic - Help me save mother-in-law from Morgan Stanley
If my ethics were lower, I think I could be much wealthier.
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Old 04-30-2010, 06:19 AM   #60
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Here's a recent thread about a Morgan Stanley client that perhaps your wife might not mind reading: Bogleheads :: View topic - Help me save mother-in-law from Morgan Stanley
Thanks! - I need some ammo like this to persuade DW that Morgan Stanley isn't the best route. I found it interesting that the person in the thread is questioning loads as the source of "discretionary fees for the quarter". I asked our Morgan Stanley guy and he said the only fees were the 1% of assets fee - with no fees for trades.

I'm setting up an account through Vanguard that I'll use to compare results to Morgan Stanley's results in our IRA's.
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