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Re: Annuities
Old 03-16-2005, 10:12 PM   #241
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Re: Annuities

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I have a question, if most of my assets are in an IRA when I retire, doesn't an annuity not make sense for me, I mean, even if I did want to hand over my portfolio, pay commisions etc.? *I mean, I gotta pay income tax on withdrawals anyway, and the 72t rules set how much I can withdraw early.....
I looked into this a few years ago. If I rolled pension money over into an annuity, I could still use 72t rules to get at it. There were a whole set of calculations that applied. At the time, I was hoping there might be a nifty trick to roll my portable pension into a high interest annuity (which are normally not high benefit rate annuities) then, after a few years of high interest accumulation, take most of the money out using 72t. It actually looked like it could have been used to my advantage but I decided it wasn't worth the effort. I would rather spend my time balancing food on my head, producing nazal milk and building kayaks out of dryer sheets.
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Re: Annuities
Old 03-16-2005, 10:18 PM   #242
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Re: Annuities

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I developed the Data-Based SWR tool back in the mid-90s when I was putting together my plan.
That's a pretty stunning claim. As I see it, it must mean that (a) Cooley, Hubbard, and Walz plagiarized and then dumbed down your groundbreaking work, or (b) you are the Queen of Sheba.

I look forward to learning which.

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Re: Annuities
Old 03-17-2005, 04:18 AM   #243
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Re: Annuities

you're giving up some financial earning potential in exchange for reduced risk vis a vis knowing how much you're going to get and when. *The annuity provider is taking on that risk in exchange for paying you less than they'll make on your money

This is a precisely accurate statement of the realities, in my view, TH.
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Re: Annuities
Old 03-17-2005, 04:35 AM   #244
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Re: Annuities

A corollary would be when you lease (anything).
The lessor is buying what you need and then the lessee
(you) gets the use. The lessor needs to make money on the item you are using during the lease. An annuity
is the same. The insurance company is "leasing" your money.

JG
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Re: Annuities
Old 03-17-2005, 04:43 AM   #245
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Re: Annuities

That's a pretty stunning claim.

It's a completely counter-intuitive development, to be sure. The guys who developed the conventional SWR methodlogy understand statistics at least 10 times better than I do. I avoid numbers-oriented stuff whenever possible. The idea that I would develop a SWR methodlogy that would leave the methodology developed by these other guys in the dust is on the surface a far-fetched one.

I think it was a case of me happening to be in the right place at the right time. I had no interest in SWRs in the days before I put my Retire Early plan together. It was the need to develop an income-stream which I could be confident would sustain itself that got me asking myself the question "What is safe?"

By pure coincidence, I happened to be asking this question just at the time in history when a new tool had been developed but not yet explored in sufficient depth needed for people far smarter than me to have noticed the grave flaws in it.

The third unlikely event that had to be added to the mix for me to have been able to have done what I did is that I was putting together a plan that had little slack in it. Had I had lots of slack, I wouldn't have been too concerned about getting the number right. I would have just taken any number developed by others and incorporated it into my plan. I wasn't in circumstances that permitted me to take such a lax attitude to SWR analysis. I have four people (me, my wife, and two small boys) depending on me to get this stuff right.

You mix all those elements and you have a situation in which a non-numbers guy can manage with a little work to come up with a tool of great power. You don't need any numbers skill at all to come up with the insight that changes in valuation levels should affect SWRs. That's common-sense stuff.

And you don't need great numbers skills to check whether it is so. A brief review of the data tells you this. Go to FireCalc and look at how bunched the busted retiremnts are. There are few or no busts for retirements started in years of low or moderate valuation. It's always retirements started in years of high valuations that fail. What does that tell you? It tells you that starting-point valuation levels matter. Big time.

All that I lacked in the mid-90s was the numbers skills needed to put together tables and stuff like that. I didn't need that at the time. My only goal at the time was to put together a plan for me that would work. It was years later when I found myself posting on Retire Early discussion boards and saw that there were a large number of community members who shared my interest in knowing what the historical data says re what is safe.

I did the conceptual work needed to develop the Data-Based SWR Tool in the mid-90s. JWR1945 did work that is just as important in the past three years by adding the numbers-based analyses people need to see clearly what the data says in detail. I view JWR1945 as the co-developer of the Data-Based SWR Tool. He took the skeleton version that I put forward and added the skin and blood needed to make the tool far more useful in practical terms to all middle-class workers with an interest in winning financial freedom early in life.
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Re: Annuities
Old 03-17-2005, 05:19 AM   #246
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Re: Annuities

1911 - Ben Graham, Appdx. 3 "The New Speculation in Common Stocks". People bought stocks for income - called dividends back then. SWR is a moniker that suffers from recency. Perhaps some have older examples - I remember Bernstein has some favorites he mentions in his writings.

Annuities - twist number three - you fall under a legal cloud - criminal or civil - where does an annuity fit in being able to maintain an income when the jury goes against you. The State of California comes to mind.
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Re: Annuities
Old 03-17-2005, 05:44 AM   #247
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Re: Annuities

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Annuities - twist number three - you fall under a legal cloud - criminal or civil - where does an annuity fit in being able to maintain an income when the jury goes against you. The State of California comes to mind.
My understanding is that a judgement against you could result in garnishing of your income, but this is probably a question for the lawyers.
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Re: Annuities
Old 03-17-2005, 07:04 AM   #248
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Re: Annuities

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That's a pretty stunning claim.

It's a completely counter-intuitive development, to be sure.
So you're really serious. Tell me what else you invented years before someone else brought it to the attention of the general public.

Did you give Al Gore the idea of the internet? Einstein a pointer to Brownian motion? Did you invent the spiral skewer and then plant one in both Watson and Crick's kitchen drawers?

I have something almost as good. I'm pretty sure, around the age of 12, I invented sexual arousal. I'm pretty sure no one had thought of it before that and I know I'd never read about it before I invented it.

Do you think I should apply for a patent, or should I just follow your lead and persist in being a crashing bore in chatrooms?
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Re: Annuities
Old 03-17-2005, 07:24 AM   #249
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Re: Annuities

LOL! RFLMAO! ooooh, ouch, it hurts!
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Re: Annuities
Old 03-17-2005, 07:31 AM   #250
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Re: Annuities

Tell me what else you invented years before someone else brought it to the attention of the general public.

The other Big Idea that I have come up with and that I am very proud of is the Passion Saving concept. Passion Saving is an entirely new approach to money management. I think it is far superior to the conventional approach, which I refer to as "Sacrifice Saving."
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Re: Annuities
Old 03-17-2005, 07:48 AM   #251
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Re: Annuities

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Tell me what else you invented years before someone else brought it to the attention of the general public.

The other Big Idea that I have come up with and that I am very proud of is the Passion Saving concept.
Whoa. That's kewl!!!! I've GoT thIs GrEAt IDEa NoW. YOu know that thing I invented at age 12? I'm gonna call it the SAVING PASSION concept.

Would you leave a breadcrumb trail so I can interject about SAVING PASSION every time you post? I think maybe a repeated cut and paste of the following in every hocothread would add greatly to the quality of life for many posters:

Quote:
At the age of 12, I invented the SAVING PASSION concept and ***** would like me to tell you about it. If you would care to examine the confirming evidence collected and posted by my disciple rwj4591 at http:/www.selfabuselowersyourbloodpressure.com, you will find that you will be much better off. Pay no attention to naysayers like tscretin, who have only been trying for three solid years now to keep me from putting my hands, you know, down there. SAVING PASSION RULEZ!!!!
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Re: Annuities
Old 03-17-2005, 08:25 AM   #252
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Re: Annuities

Whatever you say, nfs.
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Re: Annuities
Old 03-17-2005, 08:54 AM   #253
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Re: Annuities

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Whatever you say, nfs.
If whatever I say goes, then forget the breadcrumbs. I'm so famous and important - way more famous and important than you - and can't be bothered with trivialities like mocking you in perpetuity. No, since whatever I say goes, I'm going to insist that you mock yourself in perpetuity. Henceforth, I expect that you will, when posting your unending drivel in unrelated threads on any board, to add or revise your signature to the following:

Quote:
At the age of 12, an exalted genius invented the SAVING PASSION concept and he would like me to tell you about it. It is as important, perhaps more so, as DBSWR. Examine the confirming evidence collected and posted by his disciple rwj4591 at http:/www.selfabuselowersyourbloodpressure.com and you will find that you will be much better off. Pay no attention to naysayers like tscretin, who are in league with the nuns and only want you to keep from putting your hands, you know, down there. SAVING PASSION RULEZ!!!!
That's option #1. At least it's honorable.

Option #2, also honorable, is to restrict your drivel to your own threads, which can be safely ignored by the sane and numerate.

Option #3 is to FOAD. Honorable too.

Three honorable options for you. I don't know how I know this but you're going to refuse them all. You'll take

Option #4: Continued ravings from a pathetic self-important pseud.
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Re: Annuities
Old 03-17-2005, 09:23 AM   #254
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Re: Annuities

Hey NFS -
You are going to have to change your signature line!

Be sure to cut and save *****' acknowledgement "whatever you say" so in the future when he disagrees with you, you can whip out this quote. BE sure to paste a link in the thread that sends everyone back to this discussion topic.

When you create your website to promote your discovery you can highlight *****' endorsement of your invention.
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Re: Annuities
Old 03-17-2005, 09:33 AM   #255
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Re: Annuities

Cal, how thoughtful of you to suggest an out-of-context hocotation as a tag line.
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Re: Annuities
Old 03-17-2005, 09:35 AM   #256
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Re: Annuities

Yes, sir! Thanks for putting forward those suggestions, sir! Sorry for not knowing to follow them before you put them forward, sir! All hail intercst!
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Re: Annuities
Old 03-17-2005, 09:52 AM   #257
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Re: Annuities

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All hail intercst!
When intercst begins posting inane and paranoid drivel at length and ad nauseum, he'll get the same treatment. In the meantime, do the honorable thing.

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Re: Annuities
Old 03-17-2005, 10:09 AM   #258
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Re: Annuities

Yeah, yeah.
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Re: Annuities
Old 03-17-2005, 10:41 AM   #259
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Re: Annuities

I think we are off track
It's time for a comeback
So there is no ambiguity
I won't pay for an annuity
Instead, a new kayak

(sorry John, amateur at play)
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Re: Annuities
Old 03-17-2005, 11:34 AM   #260
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Re: Annuities

Dory or somebody?

I think we have set a new record - no. of pages for a thread.

? Is that true.?

Happy kayaks to you!
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