Annuities

Hello Tony.

Re. "I will ask this one last time" and "I will not ask this again". That giant sucking sound is a huge hopeful sigh,
emanating from the collective posters here.
We assume you are a man of your word, or if not
at least will be one in this case. We already have one egomaniac here and that is probably sufficient. Besides,
I was here first :)

JG
 
::)Interesting form a Newsletter I just Received on legislation for the 109th Congress, according to equity analyst Andrew Kligerman of UBS

Following a recent "field trip" to the nation's capital that included discussions with representatives of the U.S. Department of the Treasury, Senate Finance Committee, House Financial Services Committee and key lobbying groups, Kligerman said he saw only "limited" support for recent congressional proposals for lifetime savings accounts, tax deductions for long-term-care insurance, permanent abolition of the estate tax, and permanent reductions of the dividends and capital gains taxes, and doesn't expect any of them to move in 2005.

"From where I sit, there seem to be mixed signals," Kligerman said. "President Bush is coming off some recent political successes, but the polls show he is having a hard time convincing the public on this issue, and just yesterday, Sen. (Lindsey) Graham of South Carolina said focusing on private investment accounts was a strategic mistake." Under the Bush proposal -- which has yet to be introduced in either chamber of Congress but is estimated to produce transition costs of more than $2 trillion over the next decade -- younger workers would, beginning in 2009, have the option of investing as much as 4% of their salary into personal retirement accounts using funds that otherwise would have gone toward Social Security payroll taxes. Participants could choose to invest those funds into a limited menu of diversified equity funds and fixed-income funds.

Though the Social Security Administration would continue to administer the accounts, private investment companies would manage the funds under a contract with the government, with annual fees estimated to be about 0.03%. At retirement, workers would be required -- either through the federal government or on their own -- to use a portion of their account's distribution to purchase lifetime annuities.

Though the unified Democratic opposition and only soft Republican support seen for the President's Social Security package would make passage seem unlikely, Jim Morrill, Lincoln National's director of federal relations, said that given the President's commitment to the issue -- most recently evidence in an ongoing "60 stops in 60 days" tour across the United States -- he wasn't willing to rule it out.

But even without passage, the Social Security debate itself has raised awareness of both asset-planning issues generally and annuities specifically, Morrill said. "The word annuity has become better understood in Washington, and the whole concept of a paycheck for life is attractive to a lot of people who are looking at these issues," he added.

"Reform of the estate tax is more likely than repeal, but if they define reform at a 15% rate, and an exclusion of up around $5 million for individual and $10 million for a couple, that's tantamount to repeal and would cost as much as repeal," Morrill said. "We have seen numbers that indicate that if they had a 45% rate, which they're set to get in 2010 before it fully repeals, with those exclusions, that program is going to cost $300 billion. It's unlikely that they're going to find money this year to deal with a full or permanent repeal, so they're kind of throwing everything in to 2010."

Fresh interesting info. Looks like you people will be getting into Immediate Annuities with lifetime income after all. If Social Security reform goes through.

Tony
 
Tony

Third and last time:

Single age 61, 62 in July, Louisianna, 1200/mo SS at 62.

750k trad IRA, 150k taxable stocks, 100k timberland.

Prefer the answer as yearly income.
 
::)Ok unclemick2

What is the monthly amount you want to spend or need to spend each month in retirement:confused:

Take that amount and subtract the $1,200 SS.

What is the net amount:confused:

Tony
 
::)unclemick2

It would be best if I had your birthdate! I am told that it can make a defferenct with some ins co.

Tony
 
I have been reading your forum (forums) for some time and finally have a feel for the neighborhood. I have to say you are a group with a great sense of humor. (Intelligent people often do.) I am working hard on FI and hope to RE.

Tony, your posts (or should I say post since they are all the same) are almost as funny as the ongoing SWR jihad I have been following. I am very glad you are already retired because I doubt you will pick up any commissions around here. I use to think immediate annuities made some sense for some people, but you are making me reevaluate that position. Thanks for the laughs.

HnE
 
::)unclemick2

It would be best if I had your birthdate! I am told that it can make a defferenct with some ins co.

Tony

unclemick2

It would be best if I had you social security number and checking account number! I am tlod it cna meke a deferment with some ins cos. Plus I now this gyu in Nygerea...
 
::) I thought this was an earily retirement message board.

When majority of people talk about early retirement that has always meant to me age 55 to age 62.

With all the nonsense you people are posting here, I now know that all of you are under age 30.

I think your link should be removed from the AARP website which is how I found this site because the discussion sever no purpose for those age 55 and UP!

Hey Tony, I'm 30, and I plan on retiring at 45, your narrow view of what a retiree looks like explains your fixation on one investment product. 55 is not retiring early! Note the name of this Forum!
 
I think your link should be removed from the AARP website which is how I found this site because the discussion sever no purpose for those age 55 and UP!
This site is linked on AARP? Cool. I looked around AARP but couldn't find it. Anyone know where it's linked?
 
Unclemick your million bucks could generate you about $6495/month based on your ~20yr life expectancy with an immediate annuity. The amount is fixed and NOT inflation adjusting.
That number sounds tempting, but then I tend to think in terms of today's dollars. When I play with FIREcalc I see today's dollars and then the terminal value but don't see the amount I'm calculated to be withdrawing in year 10 or 20. So, briefly, what is $77k per year in 15 years equivalent to in today's dollars?
 
Soooo

If you make it to your 60's where mortality tables began to gain traction, are extremely risk adverse, don't love the thrills and chills of the stock market, have real estate profits, or other reasons, then annuities(fixed or inflation adjusted) become another viable card to play/ or at least ?? a benchmark bogey to measure against.

Now - for twist number two - what if you want to go ex-pat and perhaps just American inflation won't cut it.

:confused:Some foreign annuities to go with the American ones??

I keep remembering my old Brit engineers and their fondness for the Swiss versions.
 
I have a question, if most of my assets are in an IRA when I retire, doesn't an annuity not make sense for me, I mean, even if I did want to hand over my portfolio, pay commisions etc.? I mean, I gotta pay income tax on withdrawals anyway, and the 72t rules set how much I can withdraw early.....
 
Good question - the only thing I noticed when I ran my fixed Vanguard annuity for age 62, was 'annuities in an IRA are treated like any other asset'. So in trad IRA - fully taxible?

The interplay between 72t or RMD and an annuity??

Do not know. Interesting.
 
You are correct sir!

An annuity makes sense for someone that is a little further along in age, is in excellent health, expects a very long lifespan, has very little risk tolerance, wishes to have very little involvement in investing or investment professionals, wants to know exactly how much money they're going to get on a fixed (or inflation adjusted) streaming basis for the rest of their lives, doesnt want to worry about ever running out of money...I think you get the idea.

Like I said way back early on in this thread, you're giving up some financial earning potential in exchange for reduced risk vis a vis knowing how much you're going to get and when. The annuity provider is taking on that risk in exchange for paying you less than they'll make on your money and hoping you die earlier than the life expectancy tables say that you will.

This is just like leasing a car. Makes sense for a segment of people. Makes no sense at all for others.
 
I have a question, if most of my assets are in an IRA when I retire, doesn't an annuity not make sense for me, I mean, even if I did want to hand over my portfolio, pay commisions etc.?  I mean, I gotta pay income tax on withdrawals anyway, and the 72t rules set how much I can withdraw early.....
I looked into this a few years ago. If I rolled pension money over into an annuity, I could still use 72t rules to get at it. There were a whole set of calculations that applied. At the time, I was hoping there might be a nifty trick to roll my portable pension into a high interest annuity (which are normally not high benefit rate annuities) then, after a few years of high interest accumulation, take most of the money out using 72t. It actually looked like it could have been used to my advantage but I decided it wasn't worth the effort. I would rather spend my time balancing food on my head, producing nazal milk and building kayaks out of dryer sheets. :D :D :D
 
I developed the Data-Based SWR tool back in the mid-90s when I was putting together my plan.
That's a pretty stunning claim. As I see it, it must mean that (a) Cooley, Hubbard, and Walz plagiarized and then dumbed down your groundbreaking work, or (b) you are the Queen of Sheba.

I look forward to learning which.
 
you're giving up some financial earning potential in exchange for reduced risk vis a vis knowing how much you're going to get and when.  The annuity provider is taking on that risk in exchange for paying you less than they'll make on your money

This is a precisely accurate statement of the realities, in my view, TH.
 
A corollary would be when you lease (anything).
The lessor is buying what you need and then the lessee
(you) gets the use. The lessor needs to make money on the item you are using during the lease. An annuity
is the same. The insurance company is "leasing" your money.

JG
 
That's a pretty stunning claim.

It's a completely counter-intuitive development, to be sure. The guys who developed the conventional SWR methodlogy understand statistics at least 10 times better than I do. I avoid numbers-oriented stuff whenever possible. The idea that I would develop a SWR methodlogy that would leave the methodology developed by these other guys in the dust is on the surface a far-fetched one.

I think it was a case of me happening to be in the right place at the right time. I had no interest in SWRs in the days before I put my Retire Early plan together. It was the need to develop an income-stream which I could be confident would sustain itself that got me asking myself the question "What is safe?"

By pure coincidence, I happened to be asking this question just at the time in history when a new tool had been developed but not yet explored in sufficient depth needed for people far smarter than me to have noticed the grave flaws in it.

The third unlikely event that had to be added to the mix for me to have been able to have done what I did is that I was putting together a plan that had little slack in it. Had I had lots of slack, I wouldn't have been too concerned about getting the number right. I would have just taken any number developed by others and incorporated it into my plan. I wasn't in circumstances that permitted me to take such a lax attitude to SWR analysis. I have four people (me, my wife, and two small boys) depending on me to get this stuff right.

You mix all those elements and you have a situation in which a non-numbers guy can manage with a little work to come up with a tool of great power. You don't need any numbers skill at all to come up with the insight that changes in valuation levels should affect SWRs. That's common-sense stuff.

And you don't need great numbers skills to check whether it is so. A brief review of the data tells you this. Go to FireCalc and look at how bunched the busted retiremnts are. There are few or no busts for retirements started in years of low or moderate valuation. It's always retirements started in years of high valuations that fail. What does that tell you? It tells you that starting-point valuation levels matter. Big time.

All that I lacked in the mid-90s was the numbers skills needed to put together tables and stuff like that. I didn't need that at the time. My only goal at the time was to put together a plan for me that would work. It was years later when I found myself posting on Retire Early discussion boards and saw that there were a large number of community members who shared my interest in knowing what the historical data says re what is safe.

I did the conceptual work needed to develop the Data-Based SWR Tool in the mid-90s. JWR1945 did work that is just as important in the past three years by adding the numbers-based analyses people need to see clearly what the data says in detail. I view JWR1945 as the co-developer of the Data-Based SWR Tool. He took the skeleton version that I put forward and added the skin and blood needed to make the tool far more useful in practical terms to all middle-class workers with an interest in winning financial freedom early in life.
 
1911 - Ben Graham, Appdx. 3 "The New Speculation in Common Stocks". People bought stocks for income - called dividends back then. SWR is a moniker that suffers from recency. Perhaps some have older examples - I remember Bernstein has some favorites he mentions in his writings.

Annuities - twist number three - you fall under a legal cloud - criminal or civil - where does an annuity fit in being able to maintain an income when the jury goes against you. The State of California comes to mind.
 
Annuities - twist number three - you fall under a legal cloud - criminal or civil - where does an annuity fit in being able to maintain an income when the jury goes against you. The State of California comes to mind.

My understanding is that a judgement against you could result in garnishing of your income, but this is probably a question for the lawyers.
 
That's a pretty stunning claim.

It's a completely counter-intuitive development, to be sure.
So you're really serious. Tell me what else you invented years before someone else brought it to the attention of the general public.

Did you give Al Gore the idea of the internet? Einstein a pointer to Brownian motion? Did you invent the spiral skewer and then plant one in both Watson and Crick's kitchen drawers?

I have something almost as good. I'm pretty sure, around the age of 12, I invented sexual arousal. I'm pretty sure no one had thought of it before that and I know I'd never read about it before I invented it.

Do you think I should apply for a patent, or should I just follow your lead and persist in being a crashing bore in chatrooms?
 
Tell me what else you invented years before someone else brought it to the attention of the general public.

The other Big Idea that I have come up with and that I am very proud of is the Passion Saving concept. Passion Saving is an entirely new approach to money management. I think it is far superior to the conventional approach, which I refer to as "Sacrifice Saving."
 
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