Awkward Wealth

[longranger]

For the core group of this forum LBYM has become as natural as breathing. Along with this lifestyle comes a lot of thought, introspection and discipline not just about money but about what really is important to them. So it is not surprising that many would not change up their lives all that much if they had a sudden financial windfall.

The individuals that burn through major lottery winnings or huge unexpected inheritances often don't stand a chance of long term success because they have not had the benefit of the decades long process most on this forum have.

As for people who come from old money, have guaranteed trusts etc. and still develop the good work values and adopt many of the principles of LBYM I have nothing but admiration.

 

[Nords]

It felt awkward. And I felt a little guilty. I know I shouldn't feel guilty though.

Anyone else have those awkward wealth moments?

Were you getting social cues for these feelings from the people you were with, or was the feeling self-imposed? Because you could always refer back to the fact that you gave up a lot of luxuries and worked your freakin' assets off to be ER'd today.

Perhaps the cure for these feelings is to:
1. Hang out with people who don't give a crap how much you have, or
2. Hang out with people who are richer than you (a subset of #1).

My awkward moment happened very shortly after retiring. I was at a big family gathering and out of the blue, one of my relatives looked at me and said, "I can't believe that YOU 'get' to retire early and don't have to work anymore!" The tone was not congratulatory, and was filled with resentment.

I have relatives like that. I'm trying to replace them, or at least get rid of them...

 

[foxfirev5]

Well, that's what I get for posting before drinking my morning coffee! Get misconstrued.

I do have friends and peeps in our social circle(s) much different than us but not in much higher financial sphere. Money does change people. From the colleges their kids are considering, vacationing as couples, etc.,etc.

And Fuego, in the back of your mind you know you'll be coming into money, and I have seen a lot of people in that situation. Or those that married into it. Knowing that you will not need to worry about money in retirement you'll have a LOT less stress in your later years concerning retirement, a LOT less stress. And that makes you different whether you like it or not, whether you admit it or not.

But you should have a Plan B in case the money doesn't materialize, which I have also seen. At the opening of the will friends who thought they would be on Easy Street learned it was left to the church, the university, etc.

Lastly, I am one of the few who try to minimize their amount of screen time to experience life, which is everything away from a computer screen.

Cheesehead, I do have to agree and take the unpopular opinion here that money does change people. You may call it reducing stress or whatever but this and any other lifechanging event will change your perspective to some degree.
My car breaking down today has no comparison to when I had to change a timing chain in my driveway on a Sunday so I could make a road trip on Monday. My coworker who had a FIL worth in excess of 10m did not feel nearly the stress I did when we both had to reapply for our jobs in 2009.
His it's no big deal approach to the situation had me baffled until I learned of his circumstances. It's the struggles which contribute to common ground.
To quote Joe Walsh - "Everybodies so different I haven't changed"

 

[AnIntentionalRoad]

There is a difference between changing/upgrading one's lifestyle upon receiving a sudden windfall and changing one's core values and outlook on life. I think that if one's core values "change" for the worse because of new wealth, then those values were not real to begin with or at least not firmly in place--they were not the person you thought they were.

Having a chum who you can preach to the choir with, etc. is great. Does it matter that they have a fancy-er car than before? If it does than either the friend or the person himself are not being their genuine self.

I've felt a bit of this. I sold a business and made a nice windfall. We bought a vacation home on the beach. I RE'ed. We took a 1 year sailing trip with our school-aged kids. But I still drive the same (now) 9 year old car. Kids still go to the same public schools, etc. We're the same people as before but with more free time and a nice vacation rental (that we rarely mention). Some friends and family must have become uncomfortable because they have distanced themselves. Others are fine with it. I say that is their internal issue to deal with, their insecurities showing.

 

[purplesky]

If you want a nice sampling of "rich dicks" from all over the world just go snowboarding or skiing at Vail/Beaver Creek or Aspen or Park city or whistler and stay at the 5 star lodge.

I am kind of kidding but seriously there are some wealthy egotistical jerks in this money circle that expect their
ski boots to be kissed 24/7.

Money does change people. Lottery winners find this out the hard way.

I do think that many people just don't care that much about money and just are not impressed by it. I fall into this camp. I like the freedom of money but just accumulating toys and crap I don't need is overrated.

 

[TuborgP]

This can really occur when you retire and transplant from a high COL area to a more moderate one. Especially if you have both pensions and investments earned and saved based on a higher income scale.


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[athena53]

This can really occur when you retire and transplant from a high COL area to a more moderate one. Especially if you have both pensions and investments earned and saved based on a higher income scale.

Not always- DH and I moved from NJ to a LCOL area in the Midwest and yes, it was great for the finances. Not only did we not upgrade our lifestyle, we decided not to replace the car I'd brought into our recent marriage (it had 202,000 miles so we donated it to a charity in NJ) and live with one- DH's boring used Subaru sedan. For 11 years we lived with one car and DH, who's retired drove me to work on days he wanted to have the car. Mostly what the extra $$ did for us was allow us to save more for retirement and put DS through college without student loans.

It's all in your attitude towards money. For us it's worth more as a source of security in retirement than as a way to show the world how much money we have. Today DH pointed out a Porsche SUV on the road. We had a good laugh over it.

 

[haha]

If you want a nice sampling of "rich dicks" from all over the world just go snowboarding or skiing at Vail/Beaver Creek or Aspen or Park city or whistler and stay at the 5 star lodge.

I am kind of kidding but seriously there are some wealthy egotistical jerks in this money circle that expect their
ski boots to be kissed 24/7.

Money does change people. Lottery winners find this out the hard way.

I do think that many people just don't care that much about money and just are not impressed by it. I fall into this camp. I like the freedom of money but just accumulating toys and crap I don't need is overrated.

You clearly do care about money. Why else all these strongly worded posts about what you perceive as "rich dicks".

I would say everyone who posts here cares about money. We all have different attitudes, but no one who keeps the detailed records, runs the tests that we rune, and not least goes on forever in threads about his or her perceived take on money is not interested in money. A large % of what is discussed here is money. Or perhaps you hadn't noticed that?

Once I was talking with a younger friend, a software developer who essentially uses his craft to finance a semi-retired lifestyle. I said, "I'm no hippy, but... and I didn't get to finish my statement because he was laughing so hard. He said "I know you and both your sons, and you all three care more about money than anyone else I know."

I propose this song by Clyde McPhatter as the official song of e-r.org.

 

[TuborgP]

Many of our neighbors are transplants mostly younger many from where we came they can figure things out and hope to be is one day. We are still investing it is the second home at the beach and always clean cars and well kept lawn and landscaping that give it away. Hard to hide being away so much.





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[Milton]

ROFL - I'd never heard of those, and just watched it.

They are funny, aren't they? Good thing the BBC has seen fit to make them freely available.

There are some badly cut versions out there, but complete "Considerably Richer Than You" sketches are here on YouTube:

Harry Enfield and Chums – S1 Ep4 -BBC

4:13-7:46 (Stan and Pam meet another couple on vacation)
17:40-19:28 (Stan and Pam meet a man at the hotel bar)

Harry Enfield and Chums - S2 Ep4 -BBC

4:02-6:31 (Stan and Pam visit Frank and Angie after Frank is laid off)
17:44-19:09 (Frank and Angie return the visit)

 

[purplesky]

You clearly do care about money. Why else all these strongly worded posts about what you perceive as "rich dicks".

I would say everyone who posts here cares about money. We all have different attitudes, but no one who keeps the detailed records, runs the tests that we rune, and not least goes on forever in threads about his or her perceived take on money is not interested in money. A large % of what is discussed here is money. Or perhaps you hadn't noticed that?

Once I was talking with a younger friend, a software developer who essentially uses his craft to finance a semi-retired lifestyle. I said, "I'm no hippy, but... and I didn't get to finish my statement because he was laughing so hard. He said "I know you and both your sons, and you all three care more about money than anyone else I know."

I propose this song by Clyde McPhatter as the official song of e-r.org.

No you totally missed my point.

In the OP story I don't think this grocery store worker cares about caviar and champagne dreams.
The grocery store worker is your avg. American who doesn't have time to worry about caviar and could care less what food their neighbor buys at TJ.

I personally think some people on this website need to get over themselves and their perception that neighbors,friends,and family are really jealous and full of envy because you retired early or have secret untold wealth accumulated. Its self created drama that doesn't need to exist. If you are truly retired early than come out with it and cut the drama. People will get over it and life goes on. Seems dumb to have to keep it a secret.


Ski resorts are a magnet for "rich dicks" and trust fund kids. Great people watching. I am just kidding about it but the stereotype fits.
These are people that don't fly commercial or drive for hours to ski. More power to them.


My siblings have cash. A doc and a med sales rep making doc type income and I make much less income. So yes they have bigger houses and nicer cars but so what. I could care less what my siblings have money wise.

I invest aggressively for retirement but I am not in love with money and I don't worship money. If that makes sense.

My favorite thread on here is the FIRE milestones. It is very cool to hear stories about how people are super saving and LBYM to retire early.

 

[Milton]

The grocery store worker is your avg. American who doesn't have time to worry about caviar and [-]could[/-] couldn't care less what food their neighbor buys at TJ…. I [-]could[/-] couldn't care less what my siblings have money wise.

There, that's better!

I personally think some people on this website need to get over themselves and their perception that neighbors,friends,and family are really jealous and full of envy because you retired early or have secret untold wealth accumulated. It's self created drama that doesn't need to exist. If you are truly retired early than come out with it and cut the drama. People will get over it and life goes on. Seems dumb to have to keep it a secret.

Fair point. For better or worse, most of us humans are so self-absorbed that we spend very little time or energy worrying about others' problems or following their successes.

While I would not suggest providing specific details of one's financial situation, there is probably no real need to obfuscate - or publicly celebrate - retirement status; it's just not that big a deal. Typically the only negative consequence is the possibility that others may try to enlist you for unwanted babysitting or similar tasks: a contingency that may easily be dealt with by channeling your inner Bartleby (the scrivener).

 

[purplesky]

There, that's better!


Fair point. For better or worse, most of us humans are so self-absorbed that we spend very little time or energy worrying about others' problems or following their successes.

While I would not suggest providing specific details of one's financial situation, there is probably no real need to obfuscate - or publicly celebrate - retirement status; it's just not that big a deal. Typically the only negative consequence is the possibility that others may try to enlist you for unwanted babysitting or similar tasks: a contingency that may easily be dealt with by channeling your inner Bartleby (the scrivener).

Thanks for the correction.

Yes I would rather just be honest and straightforward about early retirement.

It might inspire and motivate some people to save and LBYM. Teach.
Others might be jealous but in time they will get over it. Their issue.

No sorry. I cannot watch your kids or walk your dog. But if I see your house on fire I will call the fire department.

 

[jerome len]

You know, I think most people are right on this blog.....but different.
Drive through my city and you'll find homes from 100k to 1m, some as high as 4 m. Now, people living in the 100k homes have a hard time understanding the budget of someone living in the 1 m homes. We need both.....most often it's the person living in the 1m home employing the person in the 100k home. The 4 m homes? Dont think too many of them read this blog. Now, I'm closer to the 1 m home than either of the others. Every dime I have I earned.....my parents taught me LBYM and my Dad was a skilled tradesman and my Mom raised the family. Can I live on 40k a year? nope. Do I want to? nope. Do I feel guilty? nope. My yougest Son is now in college....that's expensive....We flew to visit him on parents weekend.....that was expensive......My parents couldn't give me those advantages and I sort of missed them.....The kids that had them were the "rich" kids....I didn't envy, I just had parents that loved me but couldn't afford what others could. Back when I was a kid everyone believed that the U.S. was the greatest country in the world where a kid like myself could work hard and go get a better job....better education.....make more money if he/she was smart enough and worked hard. Now, many have done worse and many have done better than me. All my kids graduated or are still in college.....all have jobs and nice homes......I'm proud that I don't have to live on 40 or 50k a year......without giving up travel and my home. Am I wrong to feel this way? I've lived both lives.....the 40k with my parents and the "rich" life which I earned. I'm lucky I have my health, my family and my affluence.........I wish the same for all.....especially family and health!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[athena53]

There are some badly cut versions out there, but complete "Considerably Richer Than You" sketches are here on YouTube:

Great sketches! DH and I met someone like that on our last cruise in Alaska. It was a small-ship cruise and they're pretty expensive, but on this one and the one we took 2 years ago we found a great group of people- you knew everyone was doing well or they wouldn't be there (and you'd hear occasional references to what they did back home) but no one strutted around trying to impress people. Well, except for one couple we had dinner with the first night. Talk turned to travel, of course, and I really felt that in his cultured British accent the husband's every reply was one-upmanship. Well, how lovely that you've been to Dubrovnik; we just visited Antarctica last year. That sort of thing. No questions about or interest in our favorite destinations; just more info on THEIR destinations. Really rubbed me the wrong way.

We managed to avoid them the rest of the cruise.

 

[Totoro]

I believe money doesn't change who you are, but it does have the effect with some to bring out 'hidden' features of a character.

This happens since (alot of) money gives a sense of freedom so you feel less constrained to conform to expected norms. E.g. if you secretly think yourself better than anyone else, you'll start becoming more vocal about it once you have money.

It's the same effect with status.

So, good people tend to become great people. Jerks tend to become bigger jerks. It's a magnifier really

 

[Milton]

Totoro, you're probably right.

 

[kombat]

I think the question of whether or not money changes you is largely moot. The more interesting topic, in my opinion, is how your money changes those around you. People treat you differently if they've perceived you to have jumped a socioeconomic strata without them, and even moreso if they feel you've done so unfairly (eg., inheritance, lottery winning, etc.). I think that's really the underlying commonality in this thread. The situation becomes "awkward" not because you've somehow changed, but because in revealing wealth, you're also revealing to your peers/family that you're no longer in the same "tribe" as them. When such a revelation is sudden and unexpected, people can have wildly unpredictable responses, which is another way of saying the situation was "awkward."

Basically, in my opinion, the problem is with others, not yourself. You haven't changed, but they will now treat you differently, because they no longer feel you can sympathize with the day-to-day trials and experiences of someone in their economic demographic, whereas yesterday, they were comfortably convinced that you WERE in their economic demographic.

 

[Nemo2]

you're also revealing to your peers/family that you're no longer in the same "tribe" as them.

Actor Michael Caine, from a 'working class' London East End (cockney) background, revealed that when he decided to take up acting, (which at the time was pretty much the purview of the 'educated' class), the only resistance he encountered came from his peers who asked "Who are you to be an actor?" since he was, to their eyes, 'abandoning' them.

 

[Amethyst]

Reading "Bartleby the Scrivener" as an adult actually helped me become more assertive. Bartleby never felt the need to explain or make excuses; he simply stated his boundaries. (He was also batty, but I ignore that part )

Amethyst

There, that's better!


the possibility that others may try to enlist you for unwanted babysitting or similar tasks: a contingency that may easily be dealt with by channeling your inner Bartleby (the scrivener).

 

[purplesky]

You know, I think most people are right on this blog.....but different.
Drive through my city and you'll find homes from 100k to 1m, some as high as 4 m. Now, people living in the 100k homes have a hard time understanding the budget of someone living in the 1 m homes. We need both.....most often it's the person living in the 1m home employing the person in the 100k home. The 4 m homes? Dont think too many of them read this blog. Now, I'm closer to the 1 m home than either of the others. Every dime I have I earned.....my parents taught me LBYM and my Dad was a skilled tradesman and my Mom raised the family. Can I live on 40k a year? nope. Do I want to? nope. Do I feel guilty? nope. My yougest Son is now in college....that's expensive....We flew to visit him on parents weekend.....that was expensive......My parents couldn't give me those advantages and I sort of missed them.....The kids that had them were the "rich" kids....I didn't envy, I just had parents that loved me but couldn't afford what others could. Back when I was a kid everyone believed that the U.S. was the greatest country in the world where a kid like myself could work hard and go get a better job....better education.....make more money if he/she was smart enough and worked hard. Now, many have done worse and many have done better than me. All my kids graduated or are still in college.....all have jobs and nice homes......I'm proud that I don't have to live on 40 or 50k a year......without giving up travel and my home. Am I wrong to feel this way? I've lived both lives.....the 40k with my parents and the "rich" life which I earned. I'm lucky I have my health, my family and my affluence.........I wish the same for all.....especially family and health!!!!!!!!!!!

If a household can consistently earn 50k and LBYM and save aggressively
over a 30 to 40 year period they can definitely accumulate real wealth.
Especially starting in their 20s if possible.
The big issue these days is job hopping and unsteady employment makes it hard to save and invest consistently for middle income earners.

This 50k household should not be paying for their kids college though. Thats a mistake too many average income families make and it really destroys retirement plans. I have coworkers who kill themselves paying for their kids college costs and they are delaying retirement by 5 to 10 years.

Sounds like you have done very well and yes having your health is everything.

 

[LARS]

Newsflash: I'm fairly certain there are equal %s of jerks as a percent of their respective financial strata. Human nature is human nature irrespective of bank balances. And over the years, I've dealt with rich pricks and I've dealt with poor pricks and you know what: surprise, surprise, a prick is a prick.

Moreover, just as you can't judge the net worth of a guy driving a 20 year old Chevy wagon (a la Sam Walton), you can also not judge someone driving a BMW or Porsche or Mercedes.

 

[jjquantz]

Newsflash: I'm fairly certain there are equal %s of jerks as a percent of their respective financial strata. Human nature is human nature irrespective of bank balances. And over the years, I've dealt with rich pricks and I've dealt with poor pricks and you know what: surprise, surprise, a prick is a prick.

Moreover, just as you can't judge the net worth of a guy driving a 20 year old Chevy wagon (a la Sam Walton), you can also not judge someone driving a BMW or Porsche or Mercedes.

Although... there was a very interesting study done that showed that drivers of expensive cars were much less likely to yield the right of way at 4 way stops than drivers of less expensive cars. I'll have to look up a citation. Of course, there are still nice drivers in expensive cars, but statistics mean something.

Can't find a link to the study, yet, but here's one to a summary article with video:

http://www.topgear.com.ph/features/...ows-luxury-car-owners-tend-to-be-rude-drivers

 

[clifp]

Interesting thread, I don't have much to do add that hasn't been said.

All I can say is Hawaii would be even more perfect if we had a Trader Joe's over here. I stock when I go to the mainland but a lot of there best stuff isn't things you can take on the plane or ship.

It was front page news when Trader Joe's announced they wouldn't open a store in Hawaii. :-( If any of you guys/gals are in management at Trader Joe's please ask them to reconsider!

 

[Walt34]

Although... there was a very interesting study done that showed that drivers of expensive cars were much less likely to yield the right of way at 4 way stops than drivers of less expensive cars. I'll have to look up a citation. Of course, there are still nice drivers in expensive cars, but statistics mean something.http://www.topgear.com.ph/features/...ows-luxury-car-owners-tend-to-be-rude-drivers

Not even close to a scientific study, but every police officer "knows" that BMW drivers (in general of course and naturally present company excluded) consider themselves exempt from the laws of both man and physics. Occasionally they get a rude reminder that they are not.

OTOH, Rolls Royce cars are always driven at a stately 5 mph under the speed limit.

I was a patrol officer in the wealthiest area of one of the wealthiest counties in the country and don't recall ever stopping, let alone writing a ticket to, a Rolls driver. The only occasion I ever had to even talk to one was when he was hit by another car. Good thing the other guy was heavily insured!