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Old 07-11-2016, 09:53 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by REWahoo View Post
This is truly a zombie thread - dead for 8 years and suddenly it's active again!
That's for sure! Definitely a surprise.

At age 68 and in my 7th year of retirement, I find that so far, I am spending lots more the older I get. I can afford to do so, and as the saying goes, "you can't take it with you".
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Old 07-11-2016, 12:31 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by ChicagoGal View Post
Just wanted to point out that $200/day becomes $73,000 a year, not $7,000. Pesky little things, those decimal points

But yes, the foregone costs while away do need to be factored in when thinking about travel.
Well, not a pesky thing - do I detect sarcasm. You're right. But still - if you really WERE away from home more than at home, would you not do something to make the home smaller and cheaper? I know lots of folks who, when they decide they're going to travel a lot, either get a renter for the house, or sell it and downsize. Why have high expenses for something you aren't using?

BTW, when I go on long-term travel, it never actually costs me $200/day. If I'm somewhere for 2 or more weeks, I have already grown tired of meals out, and I've probably chosen a long-term residence, billed by the month, not the day. Those who travel a lot, and are concerned about the costs, find ways to reduce it.

WMM
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Old 07-11-2016, 12:32 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by REWahoo View Post
This is truly a zombie thread - dead for 8 years and suddenly it's active again!
I confess - I did it.

I'm new to the ER.org site. I found this thread by clicking some link that either said "most recent" or "most active", so I didn't actually check to see if it was old...having come from a recent/active list!!!

Interesting....
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Old 07-11-2016, 12:48 PM   #24
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What any analysis like this completely misses, though, is what Henry Hazlit pointed out - we tend to immediately grasp the details only of what's in front of us.

For instance, travel. We always think about the cost of travel, but we neglect the other side of it - all that spending we do while at home ceases while on travel. Let's consider a month away. Other than a security light, we shut off the home lights. In summer, we shut off the AC, in winter, we turn down the thermostat. We're not on the internet, drawn to purchase things we see online. We're not meeting friends at restaurants. In my case, the inclination to meet other hams for weekly lunches and breakfasts goes on hold. Our weekly at-home grocery bill goes to zero.

Just as an experiment, my wife and I decided to see if we could make vacation cheaper than staying at home. Guess what? We did it. We have taken a few trips now where we camped instead of using hotels, or stayed at friends' homes, using their house as a jumping off point for exploring the area. For us, it helps that we prefer visiting natural areas, not museums and shopping malls. Heck, we don't go to shopping malls while at home, what would draw us to a mall elsewhere? We both watch our diets - both for health and weight reasons - so we long ago fell into the habit of just buying groceries wherever we are and eating nominally the same as at home anyway.

Travel by air is a whole different matter. By air and then rent a car? Yes, expensive. Avg $200/day for us. Which is $7000 a year if we do it 365 days a year...so, not all that much, really, since we don't travel all year.

After I stopped working, I began finishing up already-started projects. In the first year, I spent about $6,000 on lumber, fasteners, electronic gear...and spent $500 less on gas, $250 less on lunches out with colleagues, $1000 less on business clothing, and in fact, stopped traveling that year, since the project work was so fulfilling.

When we tally up "what we added" in expenses, we tend to forget that you can't add something new to your schedule without removing something, and that means the added thing is compensated for by other things.

My parents, upon retirement, added a dozen golfing trips per year to the schedule but they said somehow they still reduced their spending about 20% per year.

You're completely wrong OD.

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When we tally up "what we added" in expenses, we tend to forget that you can't add something new to your schedule without removing something, and that means the added thing is compensated for by other things.
When we add a guide to a canoe trip, it's all "add" and zero "subtract." All expenses of the trip remain the same and all savings from being away from home remain the same. But, the cost of the guide is added incrementally.

Your statement that "you can't add something new to your schedule without removing something" might be true for the anecdotal examples you gave, but is totally bogus for others. Folks fall into this trap sometimes, thinking a few anecdotal examples can be generalized to everyone in all situations.
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Zombie Thread BLS Expediture Update
Old 07-11-2016, 01:24 PM   #25
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Zombie Thread BLS Expediture Update

These are the most recent figures I could find off the BLS site;

2013
For ages,
45-54 is $60,524
55-64 is $55,892
65-74 is $46,757
75 and older $34,382


not much difference in the 45 to 65 age group, modest increase in the 65+ group... due to healthcare cost?


http://www.bls.gov/opub/btn/volume-4...ary-by-age.pdf




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Originally Posted by walkinwood View Post
I decided to look for more current versions of the data that Bernicke used. The US Bureau of Labor data is available online, so I used that.

The 2008 U.S. Bureau of Labor's Consumer Expenditure Survey tables are here
Consumer Expenditure Survey

The breakdown by age (http://www.bls.gov/cex/2008/Standard/age.pdf) shows that average annual expenditures do indeed decrease.
For ages,
45-54 is $61,179
55-64 is $54,783
65 yrs & older is $36,844
65-74 is $41,433
75 and older $31,692

Bernicke said that the total average expenditure decreased 27% between the 55-64 and the 64-75 age groups. The new data shows that to be 24.3%. Similarly, he showed a 26% decrease between the 65-74yr group and the 75 and older group. The new data shows 23.5%.

To really understand this, we'd have to study all the years between 2004 and 2008 to see the trends, but that's more work than I feel up for right now.

In re-reading his paper, there was one point that stuck out early on.
"While the U.S. Bureau of Labor's Consumer Expenditure Survey can be a useful resource for obtaining a basic understanding of spending patterns, these statistics do have limitations. One limitation of this data includes the potential absence of long-term care costs. For example, a person in a nursing home is unlikely to participate in a survey from the Bureau of Labor Statistics. This would give the health-care-expenditures category artificially low average expenses."

Personally, I believe that the long-term-care insurance companies manipulate the data to frighten people into buying their policies, so I don't believe all the numbers I hear about the probability of needing long term nursing care. On the other hand, if you end up needing it, statistics are meaningless.
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Old 07-11-2016, 01:25 PM   #26
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Your statement that "you can't add something new to your schedule without removing something" might be true for the anecdotal examples you gave, but is totally bogus for others. Folks fall into this trap sometimes, thinking a few anecdotal examples can be generalized to everyone in all situations.
Which is exactly my point. People only think of the addition, without considering whether there is partial or full compensation. In many cases, doing something requires not doing another thing, and it is worth the evaluation for each item.

Whether you assume there's a compensation each time, or neglect it each time, you've fallen into what you appear to refer to as a "trap".

Decision-making that helps you reach your goals assumes nothing, and evaluates everything, at least a little bit.
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Old 07-11-2016, 01:38 PM   #27
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People only think of the addition, without considering whether there is partial or full compensation.
It's clear that's the way you think OD but your outlook doesn't apply to everyone. I don't think along those lines. Many others on this forum don't either. You should consider looking at all sides of a situation and not assuming your own life experiences and circumstances apply to everyone and everything.
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