obgyn65
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Living on $650-$700 a month... this must be a typo, correct ?
Book: Early Retirement Extreme by Jacob Fisker
- Thread starter Midpack
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OP
OP
Midpack
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
It's my strong impression that regular readers were fine with it. Some of them even guessed at it coming(*)---I had been [mostly] autopiloting the blog for over a year and apparently it showed that I was getting bored/frustrated with the blogging process. I think anyone on E-R will understand your choices because they know you.
Of course, seeing as I've developed an estimated handful of dectractors over the years, those guys immediately pounced on it. I think it comes down to politics again... if you have anyone who disagrees strongly with you and you say or do something that can be taken out of context and turned around to be used against you [mod edit], it will happen. It simply will happen. The observation that it's done so frequently in politics suggests at 1) It's very effective; and 2) There's practically no defense against it.
So if you know of a couple of blogs or active forum posters elsewhere who have written posts or comments about "How Nords stuff just doesn't make any sense to me", you're in trouble. If they're writing about "How Nords stuff doesn't apply to regular people", you're in bigger trouble because these authors considers themselves champions of a cause against you, for the people.
(*): Of course the way it was done, the surprise, did have something to do with reality-constraints: this was a lucky opportunity that fell into my lap (actually through one of my long-term readers); not a case of me sending out job applications for a sustained period, so the only other option was to either not say anything or wait a few months and serve it gently.
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Bestwifeever
Moderator Emeritus
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Jacob, I can see that the ERE blogging well would run dry after a while, but a lot of people end up going back to work after RE'ing (one of our mods did--you can see which one as his signature gives us the info. Hint--he likes a big old motorcycle). I think you're missing a great opportunity to blog about the experience without too much personal detail. Your job is in Chicago, I believe--you've got a new city, commuting to get used to, coworkers, lunch at your desk or whatever, dress, etc. Or the telecommuting process. I'm sure your faithful readers would like to read anything you post. And really your decision to return to the work force doesn't matter to most of us.
Although I don't really understand this paragraph, no doubt plenty of people think Nords' stuff just doesn't make any sense to them (maybe some of them related to him--just kidding, Nords!
).
Although I don't really understand this paragraph, no doubt plenty of people think Nords' stuff just doesn't make any sense to them (maybe some of them related to him--just kidding, Nords!
).
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Ed_The_Gypsy
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Jake, you have nothing to apologize for. (You do need an editor, though. Is there something in the water in CA?)
haha
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
I guess someone else picks up the check at after work happy hours?
I'm offering this more as a strategic concern/suggestion [for anyone who's public about something that goes against the mainstream culture]. There are some saying that bad PR is better than no PR; that it's better to ignore "smear" than to defend it actively.
Actually, I've found that active defense is better than ignoring it.
To give an example, I used to live in 34' RV and my withdrawal rate was and is under 2.5%. So these are facts. Now someone will write a post on a forum (actually this example is taken from a comment on an amazon book review) about "how he used to live in a car and simply ran out of money". Since practically nobody bothers to check sources or accuracy this can very quickly degenerate and explode into "I bet he's receiving food stamps too." And so on.
However, I've found that fraction of people who will actually lie or make things up in order to argue their point is pretty small---most other people will simply go along with whatever the first comment is saying. Hence, if defensive action is taken early on, that is, I (or someone else) immediately go in and point out that the "car/ran out of money" statement is wrong and instead present the facts, subsequent readers will go along with that instead.
However, active defense (dealing with personal attacks) is mentally draining. I think the best solution is that if you see someone being bullied then step in and defend them. In general, the curious fact is that while humans normally don't like bullies, they'll happily join a mob.
The second best solution is simply to keep financial/retirement/other controversial goals to oneself. I now see why so many people do just that.
Actually, I've found that active defense is better than ignoring it.
To give an example, I used to live in 34' RV and my withdrawal rate was and is under 2.5%. So these are facts. Now someone will write a post on a forum (actually this example is taken from a comment on an amazon book review) about "how he used to live in a car and simply ran out of money". Since practically nobody bothers to check sources or accuracy this can very quickly degenerate and explode into "I bet he's receiving food stamps too." And so on.
However, I've found that fraction of people who will actually lie or make things up in order to argue their point is pretty small---most other people will simply go along with whatever the first comment is saying. Hence, if defensive action is taken early on, that is, I (or someone else) immediately go in and point out that the "car/ran out of money" statement is wrong and instead present the facts, subsequent readers will go along with that instead.
However, active defense (dealing with personal attacks) is mentally draining. I think the best solution is that if you see someone being bullied then step in and defend them. In general, the curious fact is that while humans normally don't like bullies, they'll happily join a mob.
The second best solution is simply to keep financial/retirement/other controversial goals to oneself. I now see why so many people do just that.
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Aiming_4_55
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Other than this forum, I'm pretty "mum" about financial/retirement/weight loss/personal expectations/etc. This is the approach I've taken since my mid-20's as my boss took it negatively when I commented freely that my rental income exceeded my salary and that my personal value system had me work OT, not the raises. He was a bit pissed wasn't clear if he took it as bragging or a form of insubordination.
Jacob, I just wanted to say that I have enjoyed reading your blog. I think that you have given a lot of people, a different way of looking at living. I am sure that I will go back and reread some of your blogs.
I am glad to hear that you are enjoying your job. I agree that it would be nice to hear from you from time to time. You are an interesting person.
I am glad to hear that you are enjoying your job. I agree that it would be nice to hear from you from time to time. You are an interesting person.
Agreed. I don't discuss FI/ER with anybody (other than my wife and this forum of course) not even other close family. I've been FI for about 14 years and RE 10 years and that system works just fine for me. It allows for quiet enjoynment of my life. Of course, people get curious once in a while but that line of questioning is usually dropped when I start on my usual defense - how expensive everything is and how difficult it is to make ends meet and how I just had to pay for fixing.... whatever. I think they are more than happy to change the subject so I won't ask them for money
You need to go read Jacob's blog. I recommend that you subscribe to it (small daily doses instead of a huge data dump) and consider buying his book. Especially if you're going to follow through on your "Joe Dominguez" plan (Real-Life Retiree Investment Returns) of retiring on an asset allocation of 100% fixed income.
I can see that I'm going to have to write a blog post about "old school frugal"...
I agree it's easy to tell that your active regular readers are fine with it. It's harder to tell how all your readers feel about it. The vast majority of blog readers never comment.
I only have 18 months into the blog, hence the choice of another 18 months for the exit strategy. But whether it's blogging or books or discussion boards, I cannot imagine a time when I'll stop writing. In fact guest posting (or posting to discussion boards) seems to be the ultimate way to write without the constraints of deadlines or other business choices. This whole process of taking an idea from a discussion to a published book and a blog has been very educational and quite a bit of fun. The next idea will be at least that fun, and I'll already have much of the education.
But before I'd go into autopilot, I'd be blogging about the temptation to go into autopilot. And that would probably lead to a way to avoid going into autopilot/boredom/frustration.
I think one of the key points I've picked up is to share/discuss the options leading to those choices before the choices are actually made. By the time everyone's been through the discussion, then they think they know you.
However a large part of my curiosity on this subject comes from a lack of understanding, not so much a lack of agreement.
For example, I've had several attractive job offers over the last decade. Each has taken me through the emotional arc that accompanies that sort of offer, followed by realizing that (for various reasons) it's not a good idea. My spouse has been [-]calling me out[/-] a valuable sounding board in perceiving the traps behind the bait. By now I've been through the "got a job offer" process enough times that I cannot conceive of an offer that would inspire me to go back to work "for the Man" and "for a salary". Even if I am the Man and I'm keeping all the earnings.
I also can't imagine giving up that degree of control over my life. I joke about the perfect job being one where work is suspended when the surf is up, but the guy running the surf shop (and trying to hire staff) knows it's no joke. You've chosen to take the quant job for its access to tech and techniques... arguably you couldn't reproduce that on your own in a Bay Area RV. But I'm pretty confident that you could have replicated many of the problem's more interesting aspects without having to uproot yourself to take a job with a bunch of other societally-imposed obligations. It's the difference between a more cautious exploration of the water depth & temperature before diving right in.
It can all make perfect sense to you in the context of who you are and what information you've been given. But most people are still unlike you and didn't have the same info. So when you announce that you're leaving behind a dream lifestyle in a dream area of the country for... a job?!? Well, you've given yourself a huge communications challenge. I can understand why people question whether you had ulterior motives.
But, hey, this is my perspective after 10 years. Perhaps you're embarked on a similar voyage of discovery. Maybe you'll do better at it than I did.
I keep telling my daughter that she may find the fabled career that she really loves-- and until that happens, it's better to be financially independent. I suspect she senses my skepticism that such a career really exists, and I fear at times that I've poisoned her youthful optimism with my cold-hearted harping on self reliance.
That's one side of the issue. The other side is that there are just as many politicians who manage the message. They start communicating early on, they attempt to manage the media (or at least make it easy for the media to use their message), they start a dialogue, they keep communicating throughout. I agree that it's difficult, but I think that there is a defense. I just wish I knew more about it and could get better at it.
I see this as at least two blog posts. Perhaps a multi-part series!
Well, I'm still not sure of the right way to handle the situation. Another blogger waited nearly three years to tell people he'd sold his blog, and that had its issues as well. Since then he's made other life decisions (which may be right for his personal situation) that have jeopardized his credibility even further. In both cases it's because he felt that there were things he couldn't discuss on the blog-- and then he had trouble catching up with explanations. And again in both situation there were reasons for people to question his ulterior motives, or at least accuse him of protesting too much.
I guess one way to answer the detractors would be to fully disclose the salary/benefits, what you're doing with them, and why. But again I don't disclose my finances to that degree of detail-- only to the extent of noting that anything requiring a 1099-MISC or Schedule SE is donated to charity.
Now that I've muddled my way through a few hundred words, I guess it comes down to two contrasting impressions:
1. Being a tireless advocate of a lifestyle that you've fully embraced, including its very real potential penalties for failure, versus,
2. Choosing to abandon that lifestyle for anything else.
If you've been doing the first then it's very difficult to maintain credibility as you transition to the second.
Another contrast would be the Kaderlis and the Terhorsts. The Ks are still galloping the globe and writing more than ever. The Ts have adopted a new lifestyle and deliberately faded into obscurity. IMO, both have done so without controversy.
Maybe readers just want to see the bloggers reach their goals and then write "... and they lived happily ever after!"
Early-Retirement.org readers excepted, of course. Those readers would want to know how much money was left in their estate when they died after the "ever after", and whether their withdrawal scheme was 100% survivable or just an artifact of their time period of history and their sequence of investment returns...
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REWahoo
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give
+1
I think that rakes it up into a nice, neat pile.
Plus, did they go on a low carb or low fat diet, at what age did they expire, did they pay off the mortgage early, purchase an annuity, or buy LTC insurance, what was their AA and annual withdrawal rate during the last 30 years, when did they take SS, and how many years of expenses did they keep in cash!
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It's actually possible if you do a lot of the footwork. Google "epchan" and read his book. You'd have to take a Series7 exam, do your own accounting and tax reporting, and hire some software engineers (he suggests hiring two and having them work on independent parts of your code so they don't steal your ideas). As it is, I don't need to do any of that stuff: it's all given to me.
So being an employee is definitely easier than setting up your own shop. If some unacceptable societally imposed constrictions surface come up, I can just quit. Easy as that.
I know from experience that I like doing technical and "visionary" stuff. I hate the management and regulation/administration part though, so unless I can find a manager and a developer, neither of whom are dependent on a dayjob (those people are still hard to find---most people my age are busy paying student loans and mortgages) to combine forces with, this job is definitely the preferred way to go.
Given our living and financial situation it was actually pretty easy to "uproot". We were on our way 17 days after accepting the offer (which I pretty much did on the spot having been "pre-approved" by DW).
Well, that's pretty easy. I'm just going to put it in the bank like I've always done until I solve the "excess money" problem. As you know I currently have about 30% more money than I know what to do with. My thoughts on charity are very similar to Warren Buffett's issues when he had to figure out what to do with those extra 40 billion when he lives on some 100k/year. My problem is similar except scaled down in absolute amounts. I don't know enough about charities to decide, yet I do know enough that many of them aren't exactly conscientious spenders of money they didn't have to earn AND I don't want to see it wasted. Maybe eventually one of my bridge partners will turn out to be some kind of charity expert and I just transfer all the excess to their project.
But I think that's the wrong impression to have gotten. I still live the same lifestyle in terms of efficiency, not wasting money, being frugal, buying used, and having a small ecological footprint. I still advocate being debt free and more importantly financially independent to avoid being enslaved/tied to a job. I still advocate having the means to leave a boring job and the benefits of FU money. I still think being tied into a pattern of consumption, careerism, and keeping up with the Joneses is inherently bad. I still think it's a problem that so many see this not even as the default choice but as the only choice.
I think it harkens back to the biggest blogging mistake I ever made: Using the word "retirement" in the title. I dunno if you're aware of it here (I've mentioned it occasionally on the blog) but I have a background in peak oil, resource shortages, and systemic shocks---that's what I previously wrote about. My original thought was to use the idea of retirement as a sort of carrot to get people to think in more sustainable and resilient ways. If systems thinking became more popular on a personal level people would be so much more efficient with their resources and consequently they would save so much more money and still get the same results. They would also be resilient to lay-offs, etc.
Pretty much everything I have written have been about increasing personal resilience to shocks (finance, food, housing, utilities, oil embargoes, ... ). Retirement has been a very small part of it---try to find a more than a few blog posts where I discuss in detail my plans for "retirement"; there aren't many.
In a way it worked. Some who would never have thought about how dependent they are on a functioning Walmart distribution network or how frugality and being smart about their living situations (living close to work and food and not having too much stuff/too many bedrooms) would lead to tons of money in the bank and the resulting freedom began to do that because of the retirement word.
On the other hand, those who were locked in on some specific idea of what retirement means got confused. Actually, now people tend to just call it ERE (as a noun, concept and verb)---I didn't even start that trend, but it's useful to have an acronym that became its own word. You can also see why that happened.
I could also have called my blog "financial survival" ... but I suspect I would have had the same problems with the "survalism" crowd... like "ERE is not true survivalism because we don't advocate having a bug-out vehicle and a supply of .45ACP ammo in the closet for TEOTAWKI". Or I could have called it "city permaculture" ... except that would be a problem because of" the lack of a chicken tractor" or somesuch; even as the systems thinking that underlies permaculture and ERE is practically identical.
So I disagree.
The only thing I've abandoned is the public advocating. I still show up in less public areas such as these forums and my own forums, but I'm actively avoiding showing up on podcasts and mainstream sites (unfortunately there's a backlog of interviews so stories still pop up so the pain will probably continue for another 6-12 months). Not writing too much on the blog will hopefully also make most people go away except those who are really actively looking for these concepts. Making ERE more public by accepting interviews (something I started doing in 2011) was a BIG mistake. While the Great Recession has made people more receptible to these ideas, it's clearly not made enough of a difference in the mainstream mind.
But I still do what I advocated on the blog...and it never really had much to do with what people traditionally consider "retirement". It has much more to do with independence and freedom to do what you want without being externally constrained.
Ed_The_Gypsy
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Understandable. The receptive audience is rather small.
The essential message! Economic survival [I think that is an OK name for it]; escape from the trap of consumerism. From your example, I know that, in extremis, we can survive...until medical bills bankrupt us.
Hey, you're the one who has to explain the difference in a credible manner. Or who can choose to not explain it at all and just let a QED lifestyle do it for you. The trick is deciding when enough people seem to understand the message you're trying to communicate, and I guess that's another good reason for a thoughtful exit strategy.
I think that in the eyes of many skeptics you've gone from "guy who lives a frugal life because he believes in it so much that he quit his job to live it full-time" to "guy who lives a frugal life because it's fun and he can quit anytime he wants."
Maybe ER is like investment managers... maybe we should seek out the ones with long-term performance records so that we can sort out the luck from the skill! I guess I need to think about that for another 10-20 years.
Well, it's my ultimate hope that eventually people will stop caring who I am and just consider the ideas and concepts objectively and critically for what they are and apply them to their own situations if they so desire and otherwise just let it be.
I think this is a general problem with our culture. If someone comes up with a concept that can't be expressed in a soundbite the media will simply bring in the person and consider the person instead: "Does he look like someone I could have a beer with?" (If yes, his ideas are probably good.) The way of dumbing down critical thinking and objectivity is destructive. Anyone who thinks like that gives up a lot of democratic/agency/deliberate control. [See Jerry Mander's book for more on this.]
I think this is a general problem with our culture. If someone comes up with a concept that can't be expressed in a soundbite the media will simply bring in the person and consider the person instead: "Does he look like someone I could have a beer with?" (If yes, his ideas are probably good.) The way of dumbing down critical thinking and objectivity is destructive. Anyone who thinks like that gives up a lot of democratic/agency/deliberate control. [See Jerry Mander's book for more on this.]
Sarah in SC
Moderator Emeritus
I think being honest about where you are in life is what makes blogs compelling to read.
The changes that have taken place in people's lives as I've followed their blogs, even when those changes have taken them away from the attitudes and activities that caused my initial interest, are still compelling.
I'm thinking here of a couple of travel blogs, including Nomadic Matt's post: This is Where This Journey Ends | Nomadic Matt's Travel Site
And our own frequent posters who changed up from traveling in an RV around the US to moving on to other pastures on foot (love the Lake Atilan picture, btw).
Everywhere Once | Independent Travel - Everywhere, Everyway
But it would seem that the real story is where next, jacob? I think that is what your readers are most interested in hearing about.
And that is the real story for all of us. What next, indeed?
The changes that have taken place in people's lives as I've followed their blogs, even when those changes have taken them away from the attitudes and activities that caused my initial interest, are still compelling.
I'm thinking here of a couple of travel blogs, including Nomadic Matt's post: This is Where This Journey Ends | Nomadic Matt's Travel Site
And our own frequent posters who changed up from traveling in an RV around the US to moving on to other pastures on foot (love the Lake Atilan picture, btw).
Everywhere Once | Independent Travel - Everywhere, Everyway
But it would seem that the real story is where next, jacob? I think that is what your readers are most interested in hearing about.
And that is the real story for all of us. What next, indeed?
OP
OP
Midpack
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
+1 for all of us, indeed!
jclarksnakes
Full time employment: Posting here.
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+2. How you live the anti-consumerism, extremely frugal life while actually making a good income is to me just as interesting as how you lived the ERE life before.
arebelspy
Full time employment: Posting here.
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jclarksnakes said:
+3.
Carry on, Jacob. No longer a spokesperson, but just a friend.
Lsbcal
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
I am finding this thread a bit depressing as there is too much negative contrast between the different ways of thinking about work and retirement. Not all posts are like this, thankfully. Or maybe I'm reading a bit too fast.
At 64 I just want to feel good about things in retirement. You can work, be ER'd, be extremely frugal, spend a lot and enjoy your freedom, or be traveling for months on end. It's all OK.
Taking off for a run in the park now ...
At 64 I just want to feel good about things in retirement. You can work, be ER'd, be extremely frugal, spend a lot and enjoy your freedom, or be traveling for months on end. It's all OK.
Taking off for a run in the park now ...
jclarksnakes
Full time employment: Posting here.
- Joined
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- Messages
- 927
No, if you are not living life my way you are wrong.
Well, for charities, I would recommend the Electronic Frontier Foundation (EFF), the Long-Now Foundation and Woods Hole Oceanographic Institute (WHOI).
Disclaimer: still working on my bidding for bridge, and my play isn't what it should be, and I've never earned any master's points or played with Warren, but I tutored his niece in math when I was in high school.
Disclaimer: still working on my bidding for bridge, and my play isn't what it should be, and I've never earned any master's points or played with Warren, but I tutored his niece in math when I was in high school.
