College Math is Fuzzy Math

[GravitySucks]

I also have technical and business degrees. Two of my favorite courses were "Literature and Art of the 1920s" and "The History of Scientific Thought". Neither earned me any money, but both colored how I view the world. There is more to education than job training. There are other things of value than money.

 

[kgtest]

I always feel inclined to chime in as I represent the very small % of people who don't have a degree (I do have many college courses I completed with decent grades)...just no degree.

What I did have was strong mentors alongside me my whole life through thick and thin.

I earn more than both my older sisters who both have masters in their professions, but that could be a gender pay gap issue more than a degree vs no degree issue.

But then I look at a lot of my peers WITH a degree and some of them are now starting to catch my salary...or at least get job offers above my salary.

I've had a strong partner for 12 years who contributes to our goals of retirement. She also has a degree and I earn 3x what she does...again maybe gender issue...but what my buddies don't have is a nice little nest egg sitting in Roth, IRA and 401k that me and DW DO Have since we were able to save early. We also have a nice bit of equity since I invested in RE while my buddies racked up college debt.

Because of my diligence, hard work and a bit of luck along the way certainly my children will be better off than I, and that is really all I hope for. Prosperity that grows from generation to generation. Generational wealth in a sense.

I managed to earn my first 1MM in "salary" alone (not including RE equity or investment gains) before my 38th bday, no degree. in the US, literally the sky is the limit.

 

[6miths]

Just listening to a Joe Rogan podcast with Andrew Yang. Statistic was that only 49% of those who go to college in US graduate within 6 years of attending. Also training for trades was only 19% in US compared with 59% in Germany. College in the US seems very expensive compared to other OECD countries.

 

[HI Bill]

Not everyone who did or didn't obtain a degree, or technical training, have the same drive, performance, talent, physical strength, intelligence, etc., and not all of them live in the same high-economic performance geographic area. It may be that folks who have at least some of these attributes are more likely to move from under-performing economic areas, seek job growth, seek increasing responsibilities, have high job performance, and/or start their own businesses.

The oft-cited % may have more to do with the distribution of some of these traits in the population of college-bound students versus the population of general public that doesn't attend college.

 

[steveark]

Not all liberal arts majors are flipping burgers.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/kimber...duate-degrees-and-majors-of-fortune-100-ceos/

Lloyd Blankfein at Goldman and BofA Brian Moynahan have history degrees.

Also, isn't there some value to your life that was added by learning some non technical subject? Are we often confusing job training and education?

I didn't say all liberal arts degree holders are flipping burgers, but I will venture that essentially zero engineers are making minimum wages while a lot of liberal arts majors are. Sure I believe history and the arts add to the richness of life, but you can learn about those as a hobby while you make bank as a STEM professional.

It's just logical to get the required training to excel in a highly paid field rather than becoming a well rounded intellectual that nobody wants to hire. If you can't monetize education then it isn't worth much except as a hobby.

 

[nancyfrank232]

Rich kids study English because they can

Poor kids study things that they hope will help them not be poor

https://www.theatlantic.com/busines...lege-major-rich-families-liberal-arts/397439/

 

[nancyfrank232]

I am an engineer and all the general education type courses (i.e some of the liberal arts courses) I took in college were IMHO just a waste of time. They did not provide any direct benefit that I have been able to credit with helping my career. I do feel that college is about more than just the book smarts you learn. It is also about maturing as a person, and being exposed to new things that your small world as a kid in hometown you likely did not get. Especially for STEM, you learn problem solving techniques that you then apply on the job. Sure the first job out of college is required to have that STEM degree and educational knowledge. You have the toolbox, but how you learn to use those tools are what determines your career path and success. I feel very little of my success was attributable to the liberal arts courses. Or maybe some would argue I am too much of a logical engineer to see the value of liberal arts

Personally I found the vast majority (maybe even all) of my engineering courses to be useless. I definitely didn’t use any of them to become FI

Some would argue that I was too much of a logical engineer. Logically I could see that most of the Forbes 500 didn’t become wealthy by being good at engineering. And that analysis served me well

 

[gayl]

I told DS that having debt coming out of college is OK, so long as it is within reason. Updated to today's numbers, "Would you rather have $30K in loans for your education that will serve you for the rest of your career, or have $30K in auto debt on a depreciating asset?" I really don't understand how these college loans are not being paid off in a timely manner. It appears to me that it is poor budgeting rather than the (average) loans themselves. 30K is not a lot of money in today's economy compared to other things loans are taken out for.

+1000

 

[ncbill]

Just listening to a Joe Rogan podcast with Andrew Yang. Statistic was that only 49% of those who go to college in US graduate within 6 years of attending. Also training for trades was only 19% in US compared with 59% in Germany. College in the US seems very expensive compared to other OECD countries.

That's why I was happy that my kids' first choices were the service academies...4 years and out, no matter the major (even any engineering major)

 

[pj.mask]

Many people who went to college turn it into major success.
Many people who go to college flounder after school in low paying jobs.

I don’t see the need to generalize and say everyone is this way or that.

 

[meierlde]

I didn't say all liberal arts degree holders are flipping burgers, but I will venture that essentially zero engineers are making minimum wages while a lot of liberal arts majors are. Sure I believe history and the arts add to the richness of life, but you can learn about those as a hobby while you make bank as a STEM professional.

It's just logical to get the required training to excel in a highly paid field rather than becoming a well rounded intellectual that nobody wants to hire. If you can't monetize education then it isn't worth much except as a hobby.

The degree that determines your comphensation is your final degree, so if grad or professional school is in the picture it is that degree not your undergraduate major. I found that the 4 years I spent in Grad School (left with masters not Phd) were very valuable as it taught me how to learn without being taught. For example although my masters is in Geophysics, I learned a lot about computers spending my last working years in IT in particular in Enterprise Architecture (dealing with questions of how IT can help the business achieve its goals), Then after retiring I became a more voracious reader and read and learned a lot of history. IMHO if you go into any field and get to the point where you can teach your self by reading etc. you have gotten the major value of education. In particular this is true in the STEM field as knowledge changed over time, ideas and theories I learned in the 1970s have been greatly updated (Much easier to keep up since retirement, plus the web means not having to accumulate journals).
In one sense then going into a Phd Program where in your major subject you have to teach yourself is a big help. (Medicine and other areas require continuing education for example, but it is really needed in all areas)

 

[Cobra9777]

I'm generally in the camp that college at the undergraduate level does not need to be all about job training or ROI. I don't think the formal education process suddenly stops in the 12th grade. College is where kids learn to think independently, creatively solve problems with no clear answer, write effectively, and get exposed to more abstract thinking like the arts and humanities.

I think it's rare that an 18 year-old actually has a clear idea about what career they want for the rest of their life. Even if they do, there's a good chance it will change at some point. In my opinion, that's WAY better than ending up unhappy in a career you dislike. So the first few years of college are a time of exploration, discovery, and maturing as a young adult. Career stuff can be done at the same time or figured out later. It all depends on the individual. Graduate school is a great place to get more focused about a career and there's nothing wrong with working for a few years and then going back to grad school when things are clearer.

Our kids both have 4-year degrees... one is an electrical engineer, the other a teacher. They are 30 and 27. The engineer is talking about getting an MBA because he thinks it will help advance his career beyond the technical roles that are available to him now. The teacher is trying to figure out how to go to grad school for Occupational Therapy, which is near-impossible to do while still working. We may have to help her out to make it happen. We are capable and happy to do that if she is committed.

I had a liberal arts undergrad, with quite a bit of graduate work in the same field. I dropped out and worked in restaurant and retail management for a few years before going back for an MBA. I was almost 29 when Megacorp hired me as a college recruit. I strongly believe that much of my success as a manager at Megacorp stemmed from the liberal arts undergrad more than the MBA. But that's just me. Every person is different.

 

[RenoJay]

I didn't say all liberal arts degree holders are flipping burgers, but I will venture that essentially zero engineers are making minimum wages while a lot of liberal arts majors are. Sure I believe history and the arts add to the richness of life, but you can learn about those as a hobby while you make bank as a STEM professional.



It's just logical to get the required training to excel in a highly paid field rather than becoming a well rounded intellectual that nobody wants to hire. If you can't monetize education then it isn't worth much except as a hobby.

I feel like the value of the college experience that was not used for a job can be measured by answering, “After you got your first job, how much did you continue to spend on taking liberal arts classes?” If nothing then it seems you went to college to get a job.

 

[nancyfrank232]

I was somewhat logical as a child

After getting tired of school, I asked my parents why I was going

They said to get an education to get into university

Then what?

To get a degree and work for a good company

Then what?

To make money

I asked if I could skip the years of pointless classes and study money. Just take a shortcut

They said it didn’t work that way

I thought this method was BS. My rationale was that, if this path was so great why did people who followed this path complain about not having enough money? Why weren’t all my parents friends rich?

They were all penny-pinching old people with very little money. Often their biggest “investment” was their primary residence. No thanks

My parents were wrong. It did work that way. I studied money and found out that the path that my parents advocated was one of the absolute slowest and most painful way to build wealth. Not their fault. They didn’t know any better

Today I make sure that my child realizes that school is just a made-up game and to not stress about school. 99% useless

My child is more interested in our properties and how to acquire, manage, and cash flow them because this knowledge is more useful to wealth-building than anything she will ever get from sitting in class. Later we can discuss stocks, dividends, and taxes. School is for meeting friends, hanging out and having fun

 

[catii]

Glad everyone doesn't feel that way! Yes, wife & I own paid-off properties in Hawaii, but we also went to college to get the basics of our trade, which is using our minds in the engineering field.


College taught us to think logically, solving complex problems that, even now, more than 50 years later, is paying off with extra income in our retirement.

 

[RenoJay]

I was somewhat logical as a child

After getting tired of school, I asked my parents why I was going

They said to get an education to get into university

Then what?

To get a degree and work for a good company

Then what?

To make money

I asked if I could skip the years of pointless classes and study money. Just take a shortcut

They said it didn’t work that way

I thought this method was BS. My rationale was that, if this path was so great why did people who followed this path complain about not having enough money? Why weren’t all my parents friends rich?

They were all penny-pinching old people with very little money. Often their biggest “investment” was their primary residence. No thanks

My parents were wrong. It did work that way. I studied money and found out that the path that my parents advocated was one of the absolute slowest and most painful way to build wealth. Not their fault. They didn’t know any better

Today I make sure that my child realizes that school is just a made-up game and to not stress about school. 99% useless

My child is more interested in our properties and how to acquire, manage, and cash flow them because this knowledge is more useful to wealth-building than anything she will ever get from sitting in class. Later we can discuss stocks, dividends, and taxes. School is for meeting friends, hanging out and having fun

Well put. For me, the value of college was being introduced to a company that trained entrepreneurs by teaching us to run a summer house-painting business. From there I got networked with many successful entrepreneurs and a host of opportunities. I could have skipped all classes and likely had a similar outcome. The difference with today’s college students, however, is that my school was relatively cheap and left me debt free at graduation. For today’s kids, it’s a legitimate financial burden that deserves deeper thinking than it did 30 years ago.

 

[GravitySucks]

I was somewhat logical as a child

After getting tired of school, I asked my parents why I was going

They said to get an education to get into university

Then what?

To get a degree and work for a good company

Then what?

To make money

I asked if I could skip the years of pointless classes and study money. Just take a shortcut

They said it didn’t work that way

I thought this method was BS. My rationale was that, if this path was so great why did people who followed this path complain about not having enough money? Why weren’t all my parents friends rich?

They were all penny-pinching old people with very little money. Often their biggest “investment” was their primary residence. No thanks

My parents were wrong. It did work that way. I studied money and found out that the path that my parents advocated was one of the absolute slowest and most painful way to build wealth. Not their fault. They didn’t know any better

Today I make sure that my child realizes that school is just a made-up game and to not stress about school. 99% useless

My child is more interested in our properties and how to acquire, manage, and cash flow them because this knowledge is more useful to wealth-building than anything she will ever get from sitting in class. Later we can discuss stocks, dividends, and taxes. School is for meeting friends, hanging out and having fun

Reminds me of a favorite cartoon I send my working friends in Mondays.

 

[nancyfrank232]

^ +1

What a great cartoon. Thanks for sharing!

I pray my child enjoys life like this

 

[nancyfrank232]

For today’s kids, it’s a legitimate financial burden that deserves deeper thinking than it did 30 years ago.

+1 completely agree

If the goal is money, going into big debt to graduate with a diploma makes no sense

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/unemployment-rate-for-college-graduates-184228832.html

The lack of financial knowledge is a contributing factor as to why students take on massive loans for such poor outcomes

 

[HFWR]

+1 completely agree

If the goal is money, going into big debt to graduate with a diploma makes no sense

The lack of financial knowledge is a contributing factor as to why students take on massive loans for such poor outcomes

And where are the parents, school counselors, admission’s staff when Junior decides to spend $80k for a degree in basketry?

 

[timemoveson]

I am an engineer and all the general education type courses (i.e some of the liberal arts courses) I took in college were IMHO just a waste of time. They did not provide any direct benefit that I have been able to credit with helping my career. I do feel that college is about more than just the book smarts you learn. It is also about maturing as a person, and being exposed to new things that your small world as a kid in hometown you likely did not get. Especially for STEM, you learn problem solving techniques that you then apply on the job. Sure the first job out of college is required to have that STEM degree and educational knowledge. You have the toolbox, but how you learn to use those tools are what determines your career path and success. I feel very little of my success was attributable to the liberal arts courses. Or maybe some would argue I am too much of a logical engineer to see the value of liberal arts

Yes, I would have to largely attribute my business success, business ownership, early retirement and wealth to anything BUT my technical engineering courses.

 

[friar1610]

We could get rid of universities altogether, and anyone who wants more education or training can just join the military.

I'm sure you meant that tongue-in-cheek but...

About 70% of the target population (17-24) for military recruitment is ineligible for military service by reason of inadequate education, legal issues (including drug use) or physical condition.

https://www.heritage.org/defense/re...sis-young-americans-unable-serve-the-military

 

[friar1610]

Rich kids study English because they can

Poor kids study things that they hope will help them not be poor

https://www.theatlantic.com/busines...lege-major-rich-families-liberal-arts/397439/

I started as an English major (back in the '60s) but switched to Economics because of concerns about the practicality of English in the job market. Most of us back then were given the "opportunity" to serve in the military immediately after graduation; I opted for the Navy and ended up making it a career for almost 30 years. So, in my case the specific major didn't really matter as it pertained to a career. Two of the best admirals I worked for had been English majors - didn't seem to hurt them at all and both were plenty proficient in the technical aspects of their jobs.