ER, New Mexico and health insurance?

[zinger1457]

BTW, Liberty Shares has religious requirements which are significant and, in my mind, utterly and completely disqualifying. YMMV.

It's been awhile since I looked at healthcare ministries but Liberty seemed to be one of the more liberal ones when it came to 'religious requirements', leaving those requirements purposely vague. They don't require a pastor/church verification like a couple of the other healthcare ministries do. It seems that your current health (smoker, pre-existing conditions, etc.) is a bigger disqualifying factor than any specific religious requirement. From past discussions on this subject on TUG most were concerned with the financial viability of healthcare ministries.

 

[ivinsfan]

It also is not insurance, so no regulatory oversight, capital requirements, etc. Just mumbo-jumbo and hoping for the best.

That's true... but sometimes with "real" health insurance you are just hoping for the best..after you pay 12K in premiums and 6500 out of pocket you might get a dollar from the insurance company. That is almost mumbo jumbo itself when you see it in black and white...

 

[brewer12345]

That's true... but sometimes with "real" health insurance you are just hoping for the best..after you pay 12K in premiums and 6500 out of pocket you might get a dollar from the insurance company. That is almost mumbo jumbo itself when you see it in black and white...

An insurance policy is a contractual agreement overseen by a regulator (who has the ability to get a stick with a nail in it going if necessary) where the other party in the agreement has publicly available financial statements and one or more credit ratings by disinterested third parties.

Healthcare ministries, OTOH, are hope and payer backed by wishful thinking with no regulatory oversight and no indication that this is anything but a Ponzi that preys on members of a specific faith.

 

[razztazz]

Healthcare ministries, OTOH, are hope and payer backed by wishful thinking with no regulatory oversight and no indication that this is anything but a Ponzi that preys on members of a specific faith.

Heh heh. Free market.

An insurance policy is a contractual agreement overseen by a regulator (who has the ability to get a stick with a nail in it going if necessary)

Evil government. Takes my freedom. Runs up the cost

(Sorry. Couldn't resist)

 

[brewer12345]

Evil government. Takes my freedom. Runs up the cost

(Sorry. Couldn't resist)

I have regulated various financial institutions and there is a hefty bushel of truth to that. One of the reasons I was eager to leave that job was that it gets harder and harder to enforce stupid, costly, pointless regulatory decrees on people who genuinely try hard to do the right thing and run their institutions in a responsible fashion.

 

[razztazz]

I have regulated various financial institutions and there is a hefty bushel of truth to that. One of the reasons I was eager to leave that job was that it gets harder and harder to enforce stupid, costly, pointless regulatory decrees on people who genuinely try hard to do the right thing and run their institutions in a responsible fashion.

Yes but rather than bitch about some genetic defect in even having government or regulations the thing to do its --get it right--!

I am not pro-Gov because I think they are perfect. I see it as part of that competition mechanism that is supposed to keep people straight and things above board. Because the actual marketplace isn't going to do that. ref Adam Smith. Yes, even he expressed reservations.

I grew up going to Catholic schools, my father was a big city cop, then I did 20+ in the military. Believe me, I know the difference between the rules that can set us free and rules for the sake of having rules. And I know the shortcomings and counterproductive tendencies of government. They are the same as business and every other human endeavor.

 

[brewer12345]

Yes but rather than bitch about some genetic defect in even having government or regulations the thing to do its --get it right--!

I am not pro-Gov because I think they are perfect. I see it as part of that competition mechanism that is supposed to keep people straight and things above board. Because the actual marketplace isn't going to do that. ref Adam Smith. Yes, even he expressed reservations.

I grew up going to Catholic schools, my father was a big city cop, then I did 20+ in the military. Believe me, I know the difference between the rules that can set us free and rules for the sake of having rules. And I know the shortcomings and counterproductive tendencies of government. They are the same as business and every other human endeavor.

Understood. I would tell you that IMO regulation came pretty close to strangulation after the crash. I understand why things tended in that direction, but I am also eager to see more balance in the future.

 

[razztazz]

Understood. I would tell you that IMO regulation came pretty close to strangulation after the crash. I understand why things tended in that direction, but I am also eager to see more balance in the future.

Very elucidating. Not to sound like I am chastising but perhaps if there were better rules before the crash the rubber band of high handed regulations wouldn't have rebounded so furiously after the fact.

See. Right there. While the rules/enforcement were definitely sub-optimal that marketplace libertarianism, small government stuff t'wuttn't cuttin' it.

 

[brewer12345]

Very elucidating. Not to sound like I am chastising but perhaps if there were better rules before the crash the rubber band of high handed regulations wouldn't have rebounded so furiously after the fact.

See. Right there. While the rules/enforcement were definitely sub-optimal that marketplace libertarianism, small government stuff t'wuttn't cuttin' it.

In general, I would tell you that regulation of the financial industry can range from so smothering that it significantly reduces economic growth and tends to push more activity into the shadow banking arena, to wide open free for all that is close to "running with scissors." I think these things go in cycles that resemble pendulum swings. We just ended a pendulum arc that went the farthest into "let's cut off their legs so they cannot run into traffic ever again" as has been the case in my lifetime. Where will we go from here? I imagine that things will loosen somewhat, but we are starting from a pretty extreme position and who knows how far it will go in the other direction. I am not interested in debating politics with you (which is verboten here anyway), I am just making observations based on my experience.

 

[zinger1457]

Healthcare ministries, OTOH, are hope and payer backed by wishful thinking with no regulatory oversight and no indication that this is anything but a Ponzi that preys on members of a specific faith.

The ministries been around for +30 years. Please share the evidence that you have that they are a ponzi scheme. I've asked but have seen no evidence that any members haven't received the agreed upon benefits or that the ministries require new members to pay for the existing members benefits (a sure killer of any ponzi scheme). The ministries are required to submit to annual independent accounting audits that are publicly available.

 

[brewer12345]

The ministries been around for +30 years. Please share the evidence that you have that they are a ponzi scheme. I've asked but have seen no evidence that any members haven't received the agreed upon benefits or that the ministries require new members to pay for the existing members benefits (a sure killer of any ponzi scheme). The ministries are required to submit to annual independent accounting audits that are publicly available.

Capital standards? Rate setting oversight for fairness and adequacy? Reserve requirements?

 

[zinger1457]

Capital standards? Rate setting oversight for fairness and adequacy? Reserve requirements?

Those questions your ponzi scheme evidence?

 

[brewer12345]

Those questions your ponzi scheme evidence?

When you are sending money into a black hole for promises of future support, one should assume that you are being hoodwinked unless there is some way to verify that those promises will have some backing. Without a regulatory and rating structure, how exactly do you suppose these promises can be verified? If one of these mumbo-jumbo deals were running into trouble, how would you know until the problems became front page news? I and most knowledgeable observers can tell when an actual insurer is headed for trouble years ahead of time (plenty of time to get out of the path of the trainwreck). With no data, how could you possibly figure out the condition and trend of one of these schemes?

 

[zinger1457]

With no data, how could you possibly figure out the condition and trend of one of these schemes?

I guess I could look at the last 30 years of performance, payouts, and accountant audits.

 

[ivinsfan]

When you are sending money into a black hole for promises of future support, one should assume that you are being hoodwinked unless there is some way to verify that those promises will have some backing. Without a regulatory and rating structure, how exactly do you suppose these promises can be verified? If one of these mumbo-jumbo deals were running into trouble, how would you know until the problems became front page news? I and most knowledgeable observers can tell when an actual insurer is headed for trouble years ahead of time (plenty of time to get out of the path of the trainwreck). With no data, how could you possibly figure out the condition and trend of one of these schemes?

Black hole, come on now.10's of thousands of faithful BCBS customers in MN paid for years sometimes decades into individual policys..some such as myself had virtually no claims for a decade or 2. With less then 6 months notice BC said you are done these policies are all cancelled, go some other place if you can. Maybe I think BC took my money into a blackhole to pay other peoples bills and then told me to go pound sand.Where were the regulators then to stick for all the faithful customers..nowhere, that's where

Your faith in the regulatory and ratings is some what misplaced in IMO. And your use of the term "mumbo jumbo" is a scare tactic.

 

[brewer12345]

Ah, true believers. I will leave you to your mumbo jumbo. I hope it works out really well for you.

 

[ivinsfan]

"True Believer" what does that mean? The same as "mumbo jumbo".? It was just a couple of days ago you talked about "looking over a portfolio of loans that was a bus full of girl scouts getting hit by a train bad"...

So evidently things do slip through the cracks even when there are rules and regulators watching. As I said before, the "regulators" in this state didn't do a blasted thing except wring their hands and wave bye-bye as BC beat a hasty exit.
I believe the number one value in something like Liberty shares is that they will go to bat for you and more then likely get you a negotiated rate as apposed to "rack rate" for your hospital/doctor bills.

If you have some evidence of fraud in these program, bring it on. But your mocking tone isn't very pleasant.

 

[brewer12345]

"True Believer" what does that mean? The same as "mumbo jumbo".? It was just a couple of days ago you talked about "looking over a portfolio of loans that was a bus full of girl scouts getting hit by a train bad"...

So evidently things do slip through the cracks even when there are rules and regulators watching. As I said before, the "regulators" in this state didn't do a blasted thing except wring their hands and wave bye-bye as BC beat a hasty exit.
I believe the number one value in something like Liberty shares is that they will go to bat for you and more then likely get you a negotiated rate as apposed to "rack rate" for your hospital/doctor bills.

If you have some evidence of fraud in these program, bring it on. But your mocking tone isn't very pleasant.

It means you will never be convinced that the mumbo jumbo plans are not insurance and do not benefit from the protections that insurance offers. That is OK, I am fine agreeing to disagree. I will never be comfortable taking credit exposure of potentially very large size to an unregulated health insurer who has no legal requirements to hold reserves or capital. If you are, well, good luck with that. I don't feel the need to argue with you over this in perpetuity.

 

[ivinsfan]

It means you will never be convinced that the mumbo jumbo plans are not insurance and do not benefit from the protections that insurance offers. That is OK, I am fine agreeing to disagree. I will never be comfortable taking credit exposure of potentially very large size to an unregulated health insurer who has no legal requirements to hold reserves or capital. If you are, well, good luck with that. I don't feel the need to argue with you over this in perpetuity.

Well I actually have regular insurance,I never said I used this plan. My point was I don't feel as warm and fuzzy about the "real" insurance companies as I used to. If you pay into a certain insurance company for decades and they can dump you with less then 6 months notice that doesn't feel like much protection.
The only individual HMO BCBS offers in my region of the state has 60 doctors and wait for it, not one specialist in anything. So if I kept that plan I could pay 12K a year and 6500 out of pocket for the privilege of seeing a local MD. Everything else is out of network and so at rack rate.. This doesn't feel like much protection from my point of view. With options like this some people might have to start thinking outside of the norm. We were able to obtain small group coverage thru our family business to get PPO coverage, but many around here don't have that option.

I have many neighbors who have been thrown in a very distressing situation basically you are Da%$ed if you do (HMO with nothing but a local GP ) or da$#ed if you don't (consider something like Liberty)..it's not so black and white as you make it out to be.

 

[brewer12345]

No question the healthcare system is dysfunctional. Only gubmint can fix this one and clearly it will not. I could expound on an obvious solution, but it would likely draw a porcine response.

 

[ivinsfan]

No question the healthcare system is dysfunctional. Only gubmint can fix this one and clearly it will not. I could expound on an obvious solution, but it would likely draw a porcine response.

well then we agree ......but you got my point that I don't see using Liberty as just drinking the Kool-Aid...

 

[razztazz]

No question the healthcare system is dysfunctional. Only gubmint can fix this one and clearly it will not. I could expound on an obvious solution, but it would likely draw a porcine response.

Could you shoot me a "25 words or less" version in a message?

 

[brewer12345]

well then we agree ......but you got my point that I don't see using Liberty as just drinking the Kool-Aid...

I got the idea several threads ago. I still think it is an unacceptable risk, but you pays yo money and you takes yo chance (literally, in this case.

 

[brewer12345]

Could you shoot me a "25 words or less" version in a message?

Some variation on Medicare for all.

 

[razztazz]

Some variation on Medicare for all.

Ah Ok. That computes. Thanks