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Old 03-08-2008, 01:18 PM   #21
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I can't help seeing a society of 80-somethings dumpster-diving to cover their healthcare & prescription expenses... Medicare & Medicaid ain't gonna cut it.
People who think that way seem to assume that we are all just thrilled with the idea of resigning ourselves to Medicaid nursing homes and then falling gracefully on our swords.

Not me.

I am planning for much higher expenses from 80 onwards, since I have a phobia of abuse when I am in a helpless condition. I think you have to pay (and pay, and pay) to ensure decent, humane care as an elderly American.
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Old 03-08-2008, 01:38 PM   #22
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There is a demo version good for 30 days but you have to ask for it
Tell us more, I might buy it if I had a demo to try out first...
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Old 03-08-2008, 03:22 PM   #23
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... since I have a phobia of abuse when I am in a helpless condition. I think you have to pay (and pay, and pay) to ensure decent, humane care...
That's not a phobia, that's experience gained from the workplace!
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Old 03-09-2008, 08:00 AM   #24
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I am planning for much higher expenses from 80 onwards, since I have a phobia of abuse when I am in a helpless condition. I think you have to pay (and pay, and pay) to ensure decent, humane care as an elderly American.
Roger that. I would urge people to spend time in assisted living facilities or nursing homes before committing themselves to financial plans - to see and choose how to plan for later in life living. Even a "nice but not fancy" option will be quite pricey - and proof that the theory of reduced spending in later life is unfounded and poor advice.

My mother worked as a nurse providing healthcare services to elderly patients, mostly living in subsidized housing. She has no doubt that they spend less because they have less - they've run out of money or never had enough.

How much to plan for and how to manage for later in life are two subjects woefully undercovered in financial planning and counseling today.

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Old 03-09-2008, 08:07 AM   #25
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I respectfully disagree, all you have to do is LBYM, anyone can do it. Maybe "simple, not easy" but millions have done it, and continue today, lots of them on this forum. No matter what your station in life is, you can find loads of people getting by on 10% less than you have. If you live like they do and have some self discipline, you can easily achieve FIRE...
You misinterpreted my comment. I definitely agree with your post that people can live on much less than the typical financial planning engine says you need. That's the basic LBYM attitude found here.
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Old 03-09-2008, 08:14 AM   #26
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Evidently we're still not communicating. My reply was aimed at the notion that people can't save enough while they are working, not what they need to live on in retirement. People I work with are constantly telling me they need every dime they have just to live and can't save anything, and it's pure hogwash in about 90% of those cases. And that's what I was reading into your post.
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Old 03-09-2008, 08:50 AM   #27
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Evidently we're still not communicating. My reply was aimed at the notion that people can't save enough while they are working, not what they need to live on in retirement. People I work with are constantly telling me they need every dime they have just to live and can't save anything, and it's pure hogwash in about 90% of those cases. And that's what I was reading into your post.
We're in heated agreement. I personally live on about 50% of my gross and I'm looking for ways to cut routine expenses. I am increasing the travel budget but that is totally discretionary should times get tough.
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Old 03-09-2008, 09:02 AM   #28
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It seems appropriate to link in this thread the recent adverstisement article about ESPlanner that appears in the March 2008 Journal of Finanicial Planning: FPA Journal - Economics’ Approach to Financial Planning
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Old 03-09-2008, 11:29 AM   #29
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We're in heated agreement. I personally live on about 50% of my gross and I'm looking for ways to cut routine expenses. I am increasing the travel budget but that is totally discretionary should times get tough.
Fair enough...
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Old 03-09-2008, 11:37 AM   #30
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It seems appropriate to link in this thread the recent adverstisement article about ESPlanner that appears in the March 2008 Journal of Finanicial Planning: FPA Journal - Economics’ Approach to Financial Planning
I'm finding myself highly intrigued by ESPlanner, it's sounds like it's worth $199 to me. Thanks for the link...I checked out the presentations and videos on the site too.
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Old 03-09-2008, 01:02 PM   #31
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Since my old post was resurrected, I've had a few other thoughts about ESPlanner.

How does it compare to Voyant? I spent way too much time punching in my data on that free online calculator. It supposedly lets you put in a large number of life events. I put in a lot and it didn't "tilt." It said I was able to raise my spending considerably even if I retired today. I was concerned because it plugged in an inflation number and market return I gave it. I was conservative on both (I think) but it still doesn't have the historical variability of FIRECalc.

Does ESPlanner include the "natural" reduction in spending Bernicke reports in his "wealthy" retirement study? I've seen this spending reduction occur in both my in-laws and my father except for end of life care expenses. These are a real wildcard that I can only say should be covered with a cash reserve or expectation of medicaid. My father didn't need any extra despite spending thousands on a LTC policy he never used. My in-laws care is easily covered by the sale of their house. Now with my MIL gone to her "reward," my DW should get a decent inheritance that's nice but not essential to our own retirement plans.
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Old 03-09-2008, 01:15 PM   #32
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People who think that way seem to assume that we are all just thrilled with the idea of resigning ourselves to Medicaid nursing homes and then falling gracefully on our swords.

Not me.

I am planning for much higher expenses from 80 onwards, since I have a phobia of abuse when I am in a helpless condition. I think you have to pay (and pay, and pay) to ensure decent, humane care as an elderly American.
I think this is so often overlooked when people describe retirement. While I am big on LBYM and eager to FIRE with that lifestyle, I am convinced I need to plan for a rising income in retirement, not just an inflation adjusted one. Gradually I will need more care and assistance - perhaps to keep me living independently for a while with yardwork and housekeeping - perhaps to keep me enjoying outings and traveling so that I can afford more pampered accommodations as my ability to rough it declines - and ultimately to afford a good nursing home if that's needed. I've watched older friends and relatives and those with more resources were able to enjoy a lot more activities for a lot longer.
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Old 03-09-2008, 03:23 PM   #33
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I think this is so often overlooked when people describe retirement. While I am big on LBYM and eager to FIRE with that lifestyle, I am convinced I need to plan for a rising income in retirement, not just an inflation adjusted one. Gradually I will need more care and assistance - perhaps to keep me living independently for a while with yardwork and housekeeping - perhaps to keep me enjoying outings and traveling so that I can afford more pampered accommodations as my ability to rough it declines - and ultimately to afford a good nursing home if that's needed. I've watched older friends and relatives and those with more resources were able to enjoy a lot more activities for a lot longer.
But there is a definite question of balance or to put it another way "how much is enough?"

If you want to cover all of the costly possibilities of declining heath and a decade or two in a nursing home, you will never save enough to retire. That is what I think the goal of the financial planning industry is. Many of the articles and calculators seem designed to show us that we can never live the life we want if we ever retire. The more we have invested for the longest possible time, the greater their profits.

At some point we all need to say that the next few years of good health are worth the risk of possibly having to reduce our lifestyle in our later years. Of course, my experiences are that we will all reduce our lifestyles as our health fails but our cost of care may go up. One nice thing (financially) about being in assisted living or a nursing facility is that you definitely won't be spending anything on travel/vacations.

My MIL spent almost 2 1/2 years in a nursing facility before her death. My FIL has been in an assisted living facility for the last 18 months. By the time my MIL passed away, the added cost for her care was about $120,000 over their prior "normal" expenses. My FIL's care is now safely below what the two of them were spending when they were still in the house.

Yes, that's right. His net worth is increasing while in extended care. Obviously, there wasn't any need for them to have LTC insurance unless both of them spent more than 5 years in extended care. Once one passed away, there was plenty of money for the other one for eternity.
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Old 03-09-2008, 03:42 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by Want2retire View Post
People who think that way seem to assume that we are all just thrilled with the idea of resigning ourselves to Medicaid nursing homes and then falling gracefully on our swords.

Not me.

I am planning for much higher expenses from 80 onwards, since I have a phobia of abuse when I am in a helpless condition. I think you have to pay (and pay, and pay) to ensure decent, humane care as an elderly American.
W2R,

I think you can pay, pay, pay, and still get taken advantage of, although it is less likely.

Another way to ensure humane treatment is to have an advocate for your care. In your case, either Frank or your daughter might fit the bill. If the people taking care of you know that others are watching, they'll be less likely to do something untoward. The writing is on the wall that I will be advocating for my parents sometime in the next 5-10 years.

2Cor521
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Old 03-09-2008, 05:43 PM   #35
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2Cor,

Or, if I prefer to be less dependent on those two very mortal people (both of whom I might outlive) there are so many other options, given the capability to pay, pay, pay. For example I could do what my mother did - - and buy into a continuous facility of the highest quality that is owned and run by the residents. If a staff member did not treat every resident with the utmost kindness and respect, he/she no longer had a job. Top notch facilities like that aren't cheap, though.

I agree with you - - we can spend huge amounts and not get what we are paying for, whether it is humane elder care or anything else that can be bought. Rumor has it that even some multi-billionaires are abused in their old age. However, in general it is a lot easier to obtain something high in quality if one can pay well for it, and that is especially true if one is also willing to do their homework and set things up in as wise a manner as possible.
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Old 03-09-2008, 05:57 PM   #36
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W2R,

I think you can pay, pay, pay, and still get taken advantage of, although it is less likely.

Another way to ensure humane treatment is to have an advocate for your care. In your case, either Frank or your daughter might fit the bill. If the people taking care of you know that others are watching, they'll be less likely to do something untoward. The writing is on the wall that I will be advocating for my parents sometime in the next 5-10 years.

2Cor521
I tend to agree with you on this issue . I've witnessed it first hand that unless you have an advocate watching your care you are likely to be neglected . This is sad but a true statement on healthcare today .
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Old 03-09-2008, 06:24 PM   #37
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I tend to agree with you on this issue . I've witnessed it first hand that unless you have an advocate watching your care you are likely to be neglected . This is sad but a true statement on healthcare today .
Each of us has a different attitude as to what constitutes burdening our loved ones during our old age. Some of us would want to pay for good, responsible advocacy and others would simply relegate that to a loved one who may or may not be genuinely delighted with that turn of events. I prefer a degree of independence which can be expensive and that may be different from most people these days. I prefer not to become a burden on my loved ones and I am taking the responsibility of planning for my old age myself. That's not just for them, but for me.

In my opinion this really is something that all of us should probably be thinking about, rather than thinking "Oh, I will not be alive at that age", "Oh, I will kill myself when I turn 80", or "Oh, my child/children will (will have to) take care of me".
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Old 03-09-2008, 06:34 PM   #38
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Roger that. I would urge people to spend time in assisted living facilities or nursing homes before committing themselves to financial plans - to see and choose how to plan for later in life living. Even a "nice but not fancy" option will be quite pricey - and proof that the theory of reduced spending in later life is unfounded and poor advice.

My mother worked as a nurse providing healthcare services to elderly patients, mostly living in subsidized housing. She has no doubt that they spend less because they have less - they've run out of money or never had enough.

How much to plan for and how to manage for later in life are two subjects woefully undercovered in financial planning and counseling today.

Michael
I couldn't agree more. Your mother saw how bad things can get for those who are low on funds during their elder years. It isn't pretty. I think a lot of people prefer not to think of or plan for their elder years due to their fear of death. But old age comes to all of us who do not die first.

My mother planned for her old age, and she truly enjoyed life in her 90's. I intend to do so as well, should I be blessed with such a long life.
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Old 03-10-2008, 12:14 PM   #39
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In my opinion this really is something that all of us should probably be thinking about, rather than thinking "Oh, I will not be alive at that age", "Oh, I will kill myself when I turn 80", or "Oh, my child/children will (will have to) take care of me".
There's some really weighty stuff here. I can't imagine killing myself to "stay on schedule" but a couple in my neighborhood just did it by driving their car into a lake (no way it was an accident, if you saw the scene/conditions). They were both 95, probably felt they had lived enough and they may have run out of money.

I hope I don't live to be that old, 80 would be plenty for me. My parents are both 86 and it doesn't look like much fun, as they will attest. No way of knowing what I'd actually do this far in advance, but I'd like to think I won't go to assisted care/living. I'd just stay at home and do my best until I expire. Presumably, earlier than if I'd gone into assisted living - but I can't imagine paying a premium for what appears to be a greatly diminished quality of life, albeit longer. I have to be active, I can't sit in front of a TV all day or I would kill myself! So I'm not going to plan on substantially larger expenditures at the end. YMMV.

Certainly something we all have to come to grips with...
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Old 03-10-2008, 02:01 PM   #40
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There's some really weighty stuff here. I can't imagine killing myself to "stay on schedule" but a couple in my neighborhood just did it by driving their car into a lake (no way it was an accident, if you saw the scene/conditions). They were both 95, probably felt they had lived enough and they may have run out of money.
...
could very well have happened if the driver had a stroke or heart attack right before driving into the lake.
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