Flyover states to coastal snobs: go suck a lemon

[al_bundy]

There's a SIMPLE reason, Toyota, Honda, Hyundai, Nissan, Kia, have NO PENSION and FREE HEALTH CARE contracts. They use profit sharing and discounted corporare stock purchase programs along with a generous 401K match as a benefit package. Until the domestic car companies get out from under their pension and health care promises there'sno hope for them...........

all the UAW automakers let the UAW talk them into paying people to sit around and do nothing all day long. over the last 7 years there have been all kinds of stories of kids on the payroll, a jobs bank where people get paid to sit around and do nothing, bad manufacturing processes where most of the cars have problems and need to be fixed before going to a dealer, etc. UAW forced the automakers into these in the name of job security.

Boeing had this problem in the last strike. The union wanted all the parts delivered to one side of the building so some useless job can be there to take them to the other side where the production was taking place.

you get rid of some of these minor problems and you'll probably have enough money left over for retiree health care and all other kinds of things.

i've read cost estimates where the pay for Honda/Toyota and UAW workers is about the same including all benefits. Most of the Japaneese advantages are that their manufacturing is so much more efficient and the cost savings from there go to the employees

 

[FinanceDude]

you get rid of some of these minor problems and you'll probably have enough money left over for retiree health care and all other kinds of things.

These are NOT minor problems. The only way they go away is if GM and others go brankrupt and force the union's hands.

i've read cost estimates where the pay for Honda/Toyota and UAW workers is about the same including all benefits. Most of the Japaneese advantages are that their manufacturing is so much more efficient and the cost savings from there go to the employees

While that is true, they are NOT paying FUTURE promises for their workers (no pensions and lifetime medical)........

I think you would be amzed at the efficiency of today's domestic manufacturers, the gap is shrinking between them and the import carmakers.......

 

[al_bundy]

the UAW medical coverage is until they turn 65 and then they are medicare's problem. 2010 is supposed to be the year when a lot of them go to medicare and free up a lot of money.

Big 3 are a lot better, but even a few years ago most of the cars coming off the line had to be fixed before going to dealers. With Toyota that figure is less than 5%. Other things like old factories are outside GM's control. most of their plants are old and the area around them is built up and no room for expansion. with honda and toyota they still have room to expand factories. and no UAW telling them to keep old plants open in the name of job security

 

[kyounge1956]

funny how Honda, Toyota and all the "foreign" automakers have been expanding in the US for decades, building great cars in the US and creating tens of thousands of jobs but GM, Chrysler and Ford are always in crisis and always begging the government for aid

There's a SIMPLE reason, Toyota, Honda, Hyundai, Nissan, Kia, have NO PENSION and FREE HEALTH CARE contracts. They use profit sharing and discounted corporare stock purchase programs along with a generous 401K match as a benefit package. Until the domestic car companies get out from under their pension and health care promises there'sno hope for them...........

Surely it also has something to do with the fact that the Japanese companies make quality cars that often go further on a gallon of gas and last longer with fewer repairs than those of US manufacturers. I bought a Prius in 2006 for three reasons:
(1) It gets better gas mileage than any other new car available at the time

(2) it was replacing a car for which I paid a little over $5000 new in 1980 and which gave me dependable transportation for 27 years and nearly a quarter of a million miles. That car was a Toyota Tercel and probably the only reason it isn't still going strong today is that I procrastinated on an oil change and ruined the original engine. The real engine for the car was no longer available by that time and the replacement engine I had put in was nowhere near as good as the original and

(3) it was top-rated by Consumer Reports as a high quality car that was unlikely to have manufacturing defects or spend a lot of its time in the repair shop.

The fact that US companies' cars are more expensive might be explained by high labor costs, but how does the cost of labor explain their (in many cases) lower gas mileage, poorer repair record and other less-than-attractive qualities?

 

[al_bundy]

the high labor costs forced GM to push SUV's due to the profit margins which were more than Exxon could ever dream of. i've read GM loses money on the small cars they build where Honda makes a nice profit on a Civic.

 

[newporttony]

I spent my first 30 years in Chicago and my last 30 in DC. Didn't really notice that much difference among the people I met, other than superficial aspects based on things like work. Never noticed a whole lot of big city snobbery around here (this forum). Seems like the only time I hear the term "fly over country" is when someone with an inferiority complex uses it. You guys have a bug itching you - maybe some therapy would help?

I've lived in NYC and LA and can tell you that, without a doubt, there is a sense of coastal superiority. The only saving grace is that the coastal elites are the ones that get hit with AMT in greater proportions.

 

[Notmuchlonger]

I've lived in NYC and LA and can tell you that, without a doubt, there is a sense of coastal superiority. The only saving grace is that the coastal elites are the ones that get hit with AMT in greater proportions.

Oh without a doubt. I lived in the mid west before coming out to CA. People here look at me like Im crazy when I mentioned moving back

 

[brewer12345]

Surely it also has something to do with the fact that the Japanese companies make quality cars that often go further on a gallon of gas and last longer with fewer repairs than those of US manufacturers. I bought a Prius in 2006 for three reasons:
(1) It gets better gas mileage than any other new car available at the time

(2) it was replacing a car for which I paid a little over $5000 new in 1980 and which gave me dependable transportation for 27 years and nearly a quarter of a million miles. That car was a Toyota Tercel and probably the only reason it isn't still going strong today is that I procrastinated on an oil change and ruined the original engine. The real engine for the car was no longer available by that time and the replacement engine I had put in was nowhere near as good as the original and

(3) it was top-rated by Consumer Reports as a high quality car that was unlikely to have manufacturing defects or spend a lot of its time in the repair shop.

The fact that US companies' cars are more expensive might be explained by high labor costs, but how does the cost of labor explain their (in many cases) lower gas mileage, poorer repair record and other less-than-attractive qualities?

Then how do you square Consumer Reports' comment that Ford's long term quality has now come about equal with Toyota's?

 

[Urchina]

There's nothing wrong with LA or NYC, but people on the east/west coasts seem to have this attitude that middle America is a boring wasteland. And while they're certainly entitled to their opinion, I am less bothered by it knowing that my home value is only going down 1% while theirs is down +15% next year. Schadenfreude? Perhaps. But I am really tired of people acting like Manhattan (or Los Angeles) is the center of civilization.

I'm not sure that the volatility of housing prices is a fair bellwether for the moral virtues of a people.

Believe me, there's no moral superiority in paying though the nose for housing, nor is there in mocking those who do.

I'd love to have a good reason to move to Council Bluffs, South Bend or Minneapolis, but our families and work are out here on the left coast. We're choosing to stay here based on that.

I'm off to the beach with the kids and the dog. It's supposed to be about 65 and sunny today.

 

[al_bundy]

Then how do you square Consumer Reports' comment that Ford's long term quality has now come about equal with Toyota's?

when the residual values of the used cars reflect it, i'll think about buying them. nice thing about Honda's and Toyotas is that the residual values are very good so once you pay off the first car, the next car you buy is a lot cheaper and so on. my boss bought a new 2007 Camry when they first came out. Cost him around $10000 after his trade in

 

[kyounge1956]

Surely it also has something to do with the fact that the Japanese companies make quality cars that often go further on a gallon of gas and last longer with fewer repairs than those of US manufacturers. I bought a Prius in 2006 for three reasons:
(1) It gets better gas mileage than any other new car available at the time

(2) it was replacing a car for which I paid a little over $5000 new in 1980 and which gave me dependable transportation for 27 years and nearly a quarter of a million miles. That car was a Toyota Tercel and probably the only reason it isn't still going strong today is that I procrastinated on an oil change and ruined the original engine. The real engine for the car was no longer available by that time and the replacement engine I had put in was nowhere near as good as the original and

(3) it was top-rated by Consumer Reports as a high quality car that was unlikely to have manufacturing defects or spend a lot of its time in the repair shop.

The fact that US companies' cars are more expensive might be explained by high labor costs, but how does the cost of labor explain their (in many cases) lower gas mileage, poorer repair record and other less-than-attractive qualities?

Then how do you square Consumer Reports' comment that Ford's long term quality has now come about equal with Toyota's?

I didn't say that no US manufacturer's car was ever as good as a Toyota. I said that in many cases (not necessarily all) the car is less attractive in terms of mileage and repair record. In those cases where the US car is of lower quality, how does high labor cost explain it? Maybe there is a good explanation, but I don't understand why this should be the case.

 

[Urchina]

After some further reflection, I'd like to add that I don't understand the intent of the OP. Was it to point out regional differences in housing prices? We already know about that.

As a transplanted Californian, I grow increasingly tired of being vilified as a crazed, overspending liberal with plans to force my sun-baked ideas on the upstanding citizenry who happen to live east of me. I suspect that the people who live in the midwest, likewise, tire of being considered backwards country bumpkins who live in Omaha simply because they can't imagine a nicer place. For the record, I've been to Omaha and liked it a lot.

If you live in New York, Chicago or San Francisco because you love a vibrant urban lifestyle with access to high levels of live theatre, cuisine, and art, then it's understandable that you might not want to live in a smaller town inland. That doesn't make you a snob -- it makes you someone who chooses a lifestyle in accordance with your values. Ditto for folks who live in the non-coastal parts of the country.

Just because I live in California and pay a lot for housing does not make me a snobbish jerk. While I understand, at some level, the perverse pleasure that can come with seeing someone who's uppity get theirs, I also dislike being labeled uppity because of my ZIP code. Any snobbishness I possess is mine alone and not tied to the location of my abode.

 

[FinanceDude]

Then how do you square Consumer Reports' comment that Ford's long term quality has now come about equal with Toyota's?

Define "long-term"........maybe 2 years now? Give me some 5-YEAR reliability studies that confirm that and I will reconsider......

Any of us that own cars know that the first 3 years is a honey moon anyways with a new car, it is the NEXT 3 years that is the REAL issue.........

 

[FIREd]

There's nothing wrong with LA or NYC, but people on the east/west coasts seem to have this attitude that middle America is a boring wasteland... But I am really tired of people acting like Manhattan (or Los Angeles) is the center of civilization.

Snobbery goes both ways. According to vice-presidential nominee Sarah Palin, I live in the "Real America" as opposed to all y'all big city folks who live in... the "Fake America" I suppose. Hum, whether she's right or not, that sounds pretty snobbish to me...

 

[Gone4Good]

I've lived in NYC and LA and can tell you that, without a doubt, there is a sense of coastal superiority.

The disdain for city folks is no less apparent in rural America.

 

[Dreamweaver]

wait a second.... people still live in middle America?

And they have internet in their village huts??

 

[Zoocat]

The disdain for city folks is no less apparent in rural America.

Indeed! When I lived in Ohio and Missouri people there really went out of their way to tell me how much they disliked my home state of California. I've never met so many rude and resentful people as those in the midwest. After visiting Los Angeles, on the other hand, I came home thinking that I hadn't met so many happy, friendly people in a long time.

It's all in your own point of view.

 

[brewer12345]

Define "long-term"........maybe 2 years now? Give me some 5-YEAR reliability studies that confirm that and I will reconsider......

Any of us that own cars know that the first 3 years is a honey moon anyways with a new car, it is the NEXT 3 years that is the REAL issue.........

Suit yourself. I am inclined to trust CR on reliability data, as they have no incentives not to tell it straight.

My 1995 Escort is still on the road and has needed astonishingly little maintenance. I'd shop Ford and possibly GM vs. the other brands if I needed a car today.

 

[hankster]

wait a second.... people still live in middle America?

And they have internet in their village huts??

Too funny! I enjoy chatting with folks from all over the country, and I'm always amused by the misconceptions some have about rural America. I was in Las Vegas in February, 2005, chatting with a young man from L.A.

Him: "Where are you from?"
Me: "Spokane, Washington."
Him: "Did you hear about the tsunami?"
Me: (very concerned) "Another one?"
Him: "No, the big one around Christmas last year."
Me: "Umm....Yeah, we have high speed internet and CNN just like you":

Sheesh! I guess he thought we were still waiting for the Pony Express rider to bring us word of the tragedy in Asia!

 

[haha]

Maybe he really said, "Did you like the sashimi?"

 

[Notmuchlonger]

Maybe he really said, "Did you like the sashimi?"

Wonder if there is any good sashimi in the mid west

 

[brewer12345]

Maybe he really said, "Did you like the sashimi?"

Considering this was in Vegas, I can come up with endless connotations...

 

[Notmuchlonger]

Considering this was in Vegas, I can come up with endless connotations...

There are a few all you can eat buffets just outside of Vegas.

 

[youbet]

i've read cost estimates where the pay for Honda/Toyota and UAW workers is about the same including all benefits.

Could you give some reference for that? Where did you read that pay for Honda/Toyota is the same as for UAW workers, including all benefits for active and retired employees. I don't think that's true. But I'm more than ready to stand corrected if you can mention some creditable source for that information......

 

[freebird5825]

There's nothing wrong with LA or NYC,
what did I miss? did someone finally do something?
j/k...i've lived near both. not for the faint of heart.
but people on the east/west coasts seem to have this attitude that middle America is a boring wasteland.
not this NYer. i had the pleasure of managing a contract with a well known university in Ames, IA. i LOVED visiting there for the quarterly status meetings. i was treated so well by the local folks. i used to take old Rt 35, not I-35 just so i could stop in the little towns and buy a little something or other. i had so much fun. i may have been the only NYer they met, so i made sure to leave a very good impression.
...But I am really tired of people acting like Manhattan (or Los Angeles) is the center of civilization.
last time I checked that was either Athens or Alexandria. i watch History Channel a lot.