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Old 11-10-2008, 09:11 AM   #21
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Can you say Michigan?
Ohio, Indiana, Kentucky, Upstate NY (Buffalo, etc.), etc...
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Old 11-10-2008, 09:11 AM   #22
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funny how Honda, Toyota and all the "foreign" automakers have been expanding in the US for decades, building great cars in the US and creating tens of thousands of jobs but GM, Chrysler and Ford are always in crisis and always begging the government for aid
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Old 11-10-2008, 09:27 AM   #23
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funny how Honda, Toyota and all the "foreign" automakers have been expanding in the US for decades, building great cars in the US and creating tens of thousands of jobs but GM, Chrysler and Ford are always in crisis and always begging the government for aid
There's a SIMPLE reason, Toyota, Honda, Hyundai, Nissan, Kia, have NO PENSION and FREE HEALTH CARE contracts. They use profit sharing and discounted corporare stock purchase programs along with a generous 401K match as a benefit package. Until the domestic car companies get out from under their pension and health care promises there'sno hope for them...........
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Old 11-10-2008, 09:44 AM   #24
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There's a SIMPLE reason, Toyota, Honda, Hyundai, Nissan, Kia, have NO PENSION and FREE HEALTH CARE contracts. They use profit sharing and discounted corporare stock purchase programs along with a generous 401K match as a benefit package. Until the domestic car companies get out from under their pension and health care promises there'sno hope for them...........
OT, I know, but no one seems to look past the labor costs of the american automakers. Take the distribution channel for example. Look around and see how many ford/gm dealerships there are compared to the honda/toyota. The computer industry was forced to deal with the cost of the middlemen & supply chain inefficiencies. by Dell. I wonder who's going to force the US auto industry to deal with their inefficiencies beyond the labor costs.
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Old 11-10-2008, 09:56 AM   #25
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I wonder who's going to force the US auto industry to deal with their inefficiencies beyond the labor costs.
Honda, Toyota, Nissan, and Hyundai..........
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Old 11-10-2008, 10:47 AM   #26
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There's a SIMPLE reason, Toyota, Honda, Hyundai, Nissan, Kia, have NO PENSION and FREE HEALTH CARE contracts. They use profit sharing and discounted corporare stock purchase programs along with a generous 401K match as a benefit package. Until the domestic car companies get out from under their pension and health care promises there'sno hope for them...........
all the UAW automakers let the UAW talk them into paying people to sit around and do nothing all day long. over the last 7 years there have been all kinds of stories of kids on the payroll, a jobs bank where people get paid to sit around and do nothing, bad manufacturing processes where most of the cars have problems and need to be fixed before going to a dealer, etc. UAW forced the automakers into these in the name of job security.

Boeing had this problem in the last strike. The union wanted all the parts delivered to one side of the building so some useless job can be there to take them to the other side where the production was taking place.

you get rid of some of these minor problems and you'll probably have enough money left over for retiree health care and all other kinds of things.

i've read cost estimates where the pay for Honda/Toyota and UAW workers is about the same including all benefits. Most of the Japaneese advantages are that their manufacturing is so much more efficient and the cost savings from there go to the employees
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Old 11-10-2008, 10:52 AM   #27
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you get rid of some of these minor problems and you'll probably have enough money left over for retiree health care and all other kinds of things.
These are NOT minor problems. The only way they go away is if GM and others go brankrupt and force the union's hands.

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i've read cost estimates where the pay for Honda/Toyota and UAW workers is about the same including all benefits. Most of the Japaneese advantages are that their manufacturing is so much more efficient and the cost savings from there go to the employees
While that is true, they are NOT paying FUTURE promises for their workers (no pensions and lifetime medical)........

I think you would be amzed at the efficiency of today's domestic manufacturers, the gap is shrinking between them and the import carmakers.......
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Old 11-10-2008, 11:05 AM   #28
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the UAW medical coverage is until they turn 65 and then they are medicare's problem. 2010 is supposed to be the year when a lot of them go to medicare and free up a lot of money.

Big 3 are a lot better, but even a few years ago most of the cars coming off the line had to be fixed before going to dealers. With Toyota that figure is less than 5%. Other things like old factories are outside GM's control. most of their plants are old and the area around them is built up and no room for expansion. with honda and toyota they still have room to expand factories. and no UAW telling them to keep old plants open in the name of job security
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Old 11-10-2008, 11:05 AM   #29
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funny how Honda, Toyota and all the "foreign" automakers have been expanding in the US for decades, building great cars in the US and creating tens of thousands of jobs but GM, Chrysler and Ford are always in crisis and always begging the government for aid
There's a SIMPLE reason, Toyota, Honda, Hyundai, Nissan, Kia, have NO PENSION and FREE HEALTH CARE contracts. They use profit sharing and discounted corporare stock purchase programs along with a generous 401K match as a benefit package. Until the domestic car companies get out from under their pension and health care promises there'sno hope for them...........
Surely it also has something to do with the fact that the Japanese companies make quality cars that often go further on a gallon of gas and last longer with fewer repairs than those of US manufacturers. I bought a Prius in 2006 for three reasons:
(1) It gets better gas mileage than any other new car available at the time

(2) it was replacing a car for which I paid a little over $5000 new in 1980 and which gave me dependable transportation for 27 years and nearly a quarter of a million miles. That car was a Toyota Tercel and probably the only reason it isn't still going strong today is that I procrastinated on an oil change and ruined the original engine. The real engine for the car was no longer available by that time and the replacement engine I had put in was nowhere near as good as the original and

(3) it was top-rated by Consumer Reports as a high quality car that was unlikely to have manufacturing defects or spend a lot of its time in the repair shop.

The fact that US companies' cars are more expensive might be explained by high labor costs, but how does the cost of labor explain their (in many cases) lower gas mileage, poorer repair record and other less-than-attractive qualities?
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Old 11-10-2008, 11:09 AM   #30
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the high labor costs forced GM to push SUV's due to the profit margins which were more than Exxon could ever dream of. i've read GM loses money on the small cars they build where Honda makes a nice profit on a Civic.
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Old 11-10-2008, 11:17 AM   #31
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I spent my first 30 years in Chicago and my last 30 in DC. Didn't really notice that much difference among the people I met, other than superficial aspects based on things like work. Never noticed a whole lot of big city snobbery around here (this forum). Seems like the only time I hear the term "fly over country" is when someone with an inferiority complex uses it. You guys have a bug itching you - maybe some therapy would help?
I've lived in NYC and LA and can tell you that, without a doubt, there is a sense of coastal superiority. The only saving grace is that the coastal elites are the ones that get hit with AMT in greater proportions.
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Old 11-10-2008, 11:20 AM   #32
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I've lived in NYC and LA and can tell you that, without a doubt, there is a sense of coastal superiority. The only saving grace is that the coastal elites are the ones that get hit with AMT in greater proportions.
Oh without a doubt. I lived in the mid west before coming out to CA. People here look at me like Im crazy when I mentioned moving back
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Old 11-10-2008, 11:28 AM   #33
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Surely it also has something to do with the fact that the Japanese companies make quality cars that often go further on a gallon of gas and last longer with fewer repairs than those of US manufacturers. I bought a Prius in 2006 for three reasons:
(1) It gets better gas mileage than any other new car available at the time

(2) it was replacing a car for which I paid a little over $5000 new in 1980 and which gave me dependable transportation for 27 years and nearly a quarter of a million miles. That car was a Toyota Tercel and probably the only reason it isn't still going strong today is that I procrastinated on an oil change and ruined the original engine. The real engine for the car was no longer available by that time and the replacement engine I had put in was nowhere near as good as the original and

(3) it was top-rated by Consumer Reports as a high quality car that was unlikely to have manufacturing defects or spend a lot of its time in the repair shop.

The fact that US companies' cars are more expensive might be explained by high labor costs, but how does the cost of labor explain their (in many cases) lower gas mileage, poorer repair record and other less-than-attractive qualities?
Then how do you square Consumer Reports' comment that Ford's long term quality has now come about equal with Toyota's?
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Old 11-10-2008, 11:47 AM   #34
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There's nothing wrong with LA or NYC, but people on the east/west coasts seem to have this attitude that middle America is a boring wasteland. And while they're certainly entitled to their opinion, I am less bothered by it knowing that my home value is only going down 1% while theirs is down +15% next year. Schadenfreude? Perhaps. But I am really tired of people acting like Manhattan (or Los Angeles) is the center of civilization.
I'm not sure that the volatility of housing prices is a fair bellwether for the moral virtues of a people.

Believe me, there's no moral superiority in paying though the nose for housing, nor is there in mocking those who do.

I'd love to have a good reason to move to Council Bluffs, South Bend or Minneapolis, but our families and work are out here on the left coast. We're choosing to stay here based on that.

I'm off to the beach with the kids and the dog. It's supposed to be about 65 and sunny today.
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Old 11-10-2008, 11:54 AM   #35
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Then how do you square Consumer Reports' comment that Ford's long term quality has now come about equal with Toyota's?

when the residual values of the used cars reflect it, i'll think about buying them. nice thing about Honda's and Toyotas is that the residual values are very good so once you pay off the first car, the next car you buy is a lot cheaper and so on. my boss bought a new 2007 Camry when they first came out. Cost him around $10000 after his trade in
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Old 11-10-2008, 12:14 PM   #36
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Surely it also has something to do with the fact that the Japanese companies make quality cars that often go further on a gallon of gas and last longer with fewer repairs than those of US manufacturers. I bought a Prius in 2006 for three reasons:
(1) It gets better gas mileage than any other new car available at the time

(2) it was replacing a car for which I paid a little over $5000 new in 1980 and which gave me dependable transportation for 27 years and nearly a quarter of a million miles. That car was a Toyota Tercel and probably the only reason it isn't still going strong today is that I procrastinated on an oil change and ruined the original engine. The real engine for the car was no longer available by that time and the replacement engine I had put in was nowhere near as good as the original and

(3) it was top-rated by Consumer Reports as a high quality car that was unlikely to have manufacturing defects or spend a lot of its time in the repair shop.

The fact that US companies' cars are more expensive might be explained by high labor costs, but how does the cost of labor explain their (in many cases) lower gas mileage, poorer repair record and other less-than-attractive qualities?
Then how do you square Consumer Reports' comment that Ford's long term quality has now come about equal with Toyota's?
I didn't say that no US manufacturer's car was ever as good as a Toyota. I said that in many cases (not necessarily all) the car is less attractive in terms of mileage and repair record. In those cases where the US car is of lower quality, how does high labor cost explain it? Maybe there is a good explanation, but I don't understand why this should be the case.
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Old 11-10-2008, 01:07 PM   #37
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After some further reflection, I'd like to add that I don't understand the intent of the OP. Was it to point out regional differences in housing prices? We already know about that.

As a transplanted Californian, I grow increasingly tired of being vilified as a crazed, overspending liberal with plans to force my sun-baked ideas on the upstanding citizenry who happen to live east of me. I suspect that the people who live in the midwest, likewise, tire of being considered backwards country bumpkins who live in Omaha simply because they can't imagine a nicer place. For the record, I've been to Omaha and liked it a lot.

If you live in New York, Chicago or San Francisco because you love a vibrant urban lifestyle with access to high levels of live theatre, cuisine, and art, then it's understandable that you might not want to live in a smaller town inland. That doesn't make you a snob -- it makes you someone who chooses a lifestyle in accordance with your values. Ditto for folks who live in the non-coastal parts of the country.

Just because I live in California and pay a lot for housing does not make me a snobbish jerk. While I understand, at some level, the perverse pleasure that can come with seeing someone who's uppity get theirs, I also dislike being labeled uppity because of my ZIP code. Any snobbishness I possess is mine alone and not tied to the location of my abode.
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Old 11-10-2008, 01:36 PM   #38
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Then how do you square Consumer Reports' comment that Ford's long term quality has now come about equal with Toyota's?
Define "long-term"........maybe 2 years now? Give me some 5-YEAR reliability studies that confirm that and I will reconsider......

Any of us that own cars know that the first 3 years is a honey moon anyways with a new car, it is the NEXT 3 years that is the REAL issue.........
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Old 11-10-2008, 01:40 PM   #39
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There's nothing wrong with LA or NYC, but people on the east/west coasts seem to have this attitude that middle America is a boring wasteland... But I am really tired of people acting like Manhattan (or Los Angeles) is the center of civilization.
Snobbery goes both ways. According to vice-presidential nominee Sarah Palin, I live in the "Real America" as opposed to all y'all big city folks who live in... the "Fake America" I suppose. Hum, whether she's right or not, that sounds pretty snobbish to me...
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Old 11-10-2008, 01:59 PM   #40
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I've lived in NYC and LA and can tell you that, without a doubt, there is a sense of coastal superiority.
The disdain for city folks is no less apparent in rural America.
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