Flyover states to coastal snobs: go suck a lemon

[youbet]

These are NOT minor problems. The only way they go away is if GM and others go brankrupt and force the union's hands.

There ya go........ I held both hourly (union) positions and management positions in unionized companies for a number of years. We used to say that the only thing that unions cannot negotiate for is the guarantee that the company will stay in business. It really is time to reset the game and start over in terms of unions and the automakers. This may require one or more of the "big three" to cease to exist, including the pension funds and retiree healthcare funds. Sad..... but when the pay and benefits you successfully negotiate for seem too good to be true, they just might be!

BTW, to those of you who consider it management's fault that the UAW succeeded in negotiating all that they did........ BS! When you are negotiating with a powerful union and you know that your competitors are ready and eager to clean your clock on market share if you take a prolonged strike, sometimes you do a little giving in despite knowing it will likely cost you later. You do this because you hope the union will "get" your competitors too and it will return to an even playing field.

BTW, for a little perspective, I spent the latter part of my career managing for a non-unionized company in the electronics/telecommunications industry. Why? The unionized metal working plant I was working at (USW - United Steel Workers) took a strike that lasted a little over one year before the company threw in the towel and shut down and I was laid off.

Getting tough with the UAW, USW or similar wasn't easy in the 60's, 70's and 80's when most of the so-called give-aways to the unions occured. Now the unions have to live with the consequences of having contributed to the weakening of their employers to the point their employers will likely not be able to continue paying them......

 

[Urchina]

Too funny! I enjoy chatting with folks from all over the country, and I'm always amused by the misconceptions some have about rural America. I was in Las Vegas in February, 2005, chatting with a young man from L.A.

Him: "Where are you from?"
Me: "Spokane, Washington."
Him: "Did you hear about the tsunami?"
Me: (very concerned) "Another one?"
Him: "No, the big one around Christmas last year."
Me: "Umm....Yeah, we have high speed internet and CNN just like you":

Sheesh! I guess he thought we were still waiting for the Pony Express rider to bring us word of the tragedy in Asia!

This is too funny! In 1992 I was on a plane coming back to the US after a year abroad. The woman sitting next to me was from NYC and asked me where I was headed. I told her I was going home to Oregon. She smiled widely and said, with a slightly quizzical look "How nice. How big a city is Oregon?"

Where do you even go from there?

 

[al_bundy]

Could you give some reference for that? Where did you read that pay for Honda/Toyota is the same as for UAW workers, including all benefits for active and retired employees. I don't think that's true. But I'm more than ready to stand corrected if you can mention some creditable source for that information......

probably in the WSJ, and you have to pay for it. UAW make more, but all the benefits it's not that much. the problem with GM is the cost per car where employee costs are one part of the problem.

 

[Rustic23]

Totally off target, but I was at Discount Tire today. The woman in front of me, after what seemed forever, finally concluded her order for new tires. The clerk ask her for her keys. Her reply left everyone wondering.

"You mean I have to leave my car?"

His reply, 'Only if you want us to put the tires on", which she did.

 

[travelover]

This is too funny! In 1992 I was on a plane coming back to the US after a year abroad. The woman sitting next to me was from NYC and asked me where I was headed. I told her I was going home to Oregon. She smiled widely and said, with a slightly quizzical look "How nice. How big a city is Oregon?"

Where do you even go from there?

I overheard this one:

I'm from Manitoba.

Oh, where's that?

Ummmm - near Winnipeg........

 

[Gone4Good]

This may require one or more of the "big three" to cease to exist, including the pension funds and retiree healthcare funds.

This will be interesting to watch and will tell us a lot about our President Elect. Is he a problem solving pragmatist or a big union liberal?

The reality is that GM, Ford, & Chrysler need to restructure their costs to fit within their revenues. While a bankruptcy court would be particularly well suited to handle this, the recent election suggests Chapter 11 is not in the cards. But unfortunately for our well meaning politicians, government largess can only forestall the inevitable. To fix the underlying problem the cost structures will have to be rationalized . . . it will be interesting to watch Obama try to manage the competing interests. I have to admit, I'm not "hopeful" of the outcome.

 

[Alex.]

Is that a typo on Atlanta, lol? My place is in trouble otherwise!

There's nothing wrong with LA or NYC, but people on the east/west coasts seem to have this attitude that middle America is a boring wasteland. And while they're certainly entitled to their opinion, I am less bothered by it knowing that my home value is only going down 1% while theirs is down +15% next year. Schadenfreude? Perhaps. But I am really tired of people acting like Manhattan (or Los Angeles) is the center of civilization.

Metro area 2009 median home price 2009 change
Dallas $155,645 -1.0%
Houston 147,549 -1.8
Atlanta 50,092 -2.5
Chicago 239,359 -5.3
Philadelphia 201,151 -9.8
Boston 295,918 -12.5
New York 393,210 -13.7
Washington 261,411 -17.1
Los Angeles 269,614 -17.2
Miami 214,551 -18.8

Forecast 2009: Year of the thaw - Nov. 4, 2008

 

[Lsbcal]

This is a really small minded thread. I'm just posting this to show my displeasure at one American (the OP) who doesn't seem to have a clue about other parts of the country. I won't be reading any followups so you can say what you want to but it's not worth anyone's time on this board to continue this discussion.

 

[NW-Bound]

... I live in the "Real America" as opposed to all y'all big city folks who live in... the "Fake America" I suppose.

Being an Arizonan, I wonder where I fit. Somewhere between the coastal folks and the fly-over, I guess. So, I have nothing to add, nor need to take side here.

However, about the "Real America", I read an interesting essay recently (in Time?) about this topic. The author pointed out that there are more Americans living in the "Fake America" now that it has become the "Real" one, whether you like it or not.

 

[BunsGettingFirm]

I am a NYCer though not a real one either because I transplanted from somewhere else. NYC is where I have lived the longest in one stretch, so I tend to consider it home, but I have lived in CA, CO, MI, IL, PA, MD, MA, and Canada. I can tell you that where you're from can always be made into a problem, but those who do make it a problem tend to be venting frustration about their own lives or are talking about some perceived injustice that he/she assigns to a class of people. This stuff happens everywhere, but I would say that people on the coasts tend to spend less time obsessing about the nefarious people in Middle America.

 

[al_bundy]

This will be interesting to watch and will tell us a lot about our President Elect. Is he a problem solving pragmatist or a big union liberal?

The reality is that GM, Ford, & Chrysler need to restructure their costs to fit within their revenues. While a bankruptcy court would be particularly well suited to handle this, the recent election suggests Chapter 11 is not in the cards. But unfortunately for our well meaning politicians, government largess can only forestall the inevitable. To fix the underlying problem the cost structures will have to be rationalized . . . it will be interesting to watch Obama try to manage the competing interests. I have to admit, I'm not "hopeful" of the outcome.

Obama has said he supports a bailout as long as the UAW comes to the table and gives something up to make the business solvent

 

[haha]

This stuff happens everywhere, but I would say that people on the coasts tend to spend less time obsessing about the nefarious people in Middle America.

I've lived on one coast or another for 50 years. mostly within a mile or less of the saltwater. I am trying really hard to remember if I have ever heard anyone make any comment about "people from off". I don't think I ever have. On the other hand where I was born in The Interior, I heard a lot about those Nasty Yankees.

So many people on the coasts are originally from elsewhere, the younger ones still depend on care packages from Mom back in Minnasota.

Ha

 

[harley]

Could you give some reference for that? Where did you read that pay for Honda/Toyota is the same as for UAW workers, including all benefits for active and retired employees. I don't think that's true. But I'm more than ready to stand corrected if you can mention some creditable source for that information......

Youbet, I've read that article (or a similar one) too, but wasn't able to find it in a couple minutes of googling. But what I remember is that the Honda/Toyota employees were actually higher paid than the GM/Fordsters, but that the lack of pension/healthcare combined with seriously less efficient production techniques made the American made cars more expensive. The average Toyota sale made the company $1K+, whereas the average car sale for Ford lost the comany about the same. The article also stated that the American factories were gaining on the furriners productivity-wise, but still couldn't compete due to the benefits as well as rebates and distribution costs.

Disclosure - Toyota owner since 1979. Every American car I ever tried was a POS in comparison (except my first one, a 1965 Mustang - )

 

[Bestwifeever]

Oh without a doubt. I lived in the mid west before coming out to CA. People here look at me like Im crazy when I mentioned moving back

Come back!

I'll be happy to bail someone out on a warm coast if I can come use their spare bedroom from November 1 to March 1.

 

[Moemg]

So are all coastal area residents considered snobs or is it only Calif. & NYC . So living in Florida am I snobby and if I move Maine still snobby ? There are coastal areas of Florida that make flyover country look like heaven.

 

[Bestwifeever]

I think OP was including only Manhattan and LA (not even all of California or New York) as the coastal snobs. Maine and Florida will have to work harder to get that reputation

 

[Gone4Good]

Obama has said he supports a bailout as long as the UAW comes to the table and gives something up to make the business solvent

Hmmm, interesting. I only saw that he wanted help for the auto's, I didn't see any comments about actually making them viable companies again. I did see the UAW say that they weren't agreeing to any more concessions - they think they've given enough. The UAW no doubt feels like they have a bit of pull with the new President and both houses of Congress . . . it will be interesting to see how this plays out.

 

[Gone4Good]

As to the OP, it would be my view that people who are well traveled, have lived in a number of different locations, are exposed daily to a great diversity of cultures, opinions, religious beliefs and lifestyles will generally be more tolerant and open minded individuals than those who aren't.

 

[HFWR]

“Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation, and every city or house divided against itself will not stand."

Jesus


"A house divided against itself cannot stand."

A. Lincoln

 

[Khan]

So are all coastal area residents considered snobs or is it only Calif. & NYC . So living in Florida am I snobby and if I move Maine still snobby ? There are coastal areas of Florida that make flyover country look like heaven.

I grew up in the NE about 100 miles from NYC; have lived on the DC beltway, and within 80 miles of San Francisco. Have been in Ohio for 30 years.

Am I snobby or salt-of-the-earth flyover?

 

[Westernskies]

“Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation, and every city or house divided against itself will not stand."

Jesus


"A house divided against itself cannot stand."

A. Lincoln

"Me against my brother"
"My brother and I against my cousin"
"The three of us against the world"

source unknown, possibly ancient Arabic.

 

[NW-Bound]

... But what I remember is that the Honda/Toyota employees were actually higher paid than the GM/Fordsters, but that the lack of pension/healthcare combined with seriously less efficient production techniques made the American made cars more expensive.

I just saw this 5 min ago on CNBC.

Average Total Compensation (wage+benefits):

For Big 3: $73/hr
For Toyota: $48/hr
For US worker: $28/hr

 

[youbet]

Youbet, I've read that article (or a similar one) too, but wasn't able to find it in a couple minutes of googling. But what I remember is that the Honda/Toyota employees were actually higher paid than the GM/Fordsters, but that the lack of pension/healthcare combined with seriously less efficient production techniques made the American made cars more expensive. The average Toyota sale made the company $1K+, whereas the average car sale for Ford lost the comany about the same. The article also stated that the American factories were gaining on the furriners productivity-wise, but still couldn't compete due to the benefits as well as rebates and distribution costs.

Well, you might be recollecting your reading material incorrectly. Happens to me!

The Big Three has agreements with the UAW and in some cases get to pay newly highered workers on reduced pay schedules as compared to senior workers. Your reading material might have been refering to that. But, when you compare the total labor + benefit costs of Big Three produced cars, including retiree health care and pensions, work rules related to pay for time not worked, etc., The Big Three are at a significant disadvantage from a labor-related cost perspective.

IMO, the only way out is bankruptcy and reorganization with completely new union contracts and govt picking up retiree benefits. Or, perhaps the UAW coming to the table and sharing in the pain during any bailout negotiations.

There is a reason the Toyota/Honda plants are primarily in right to work states.

 

[Fireup2020]

Some of us needed to read the post to learn the phrase "flyover country"...I did miss this board!

 

[Moemg]

I grew up in the NE about 100 miles from NYC; have lived on the DC beltway, and within 80 miles of San Francisco. Have been in Ohio for 30 years.

Am I snobby or salt-of-the-earth flyover?

You are a ex snobby semi nouveau fly over !