Incentive Trusts - your thoughts?

[jon-nyc]

Oh, I agree it's a really bad plan - but it's pretty much the best plan we can think of. Was that in "Argo": - "sir, it's the best bad plan we have.".

Are you really sure about that? I mean, face it, you guys are emotionally involved too. This plan looks like it's designed to get him to finally concede the point. Basically this plan means you guys win the decades old argument or he doesn't get paid.

If you really just want to turn the page on this, set up a clean trust so he can't blow the money, then get an RO if he harasses you. The only downside is you don't get the 'win'.

 

[Meadbh]

One's parent doing something different from what some children think should be done is not obviously a reason to step in. Old people enjoy agency as fully as younger people.

Assuming your mother is competent, she has the right to spend her money how she wants, even if her decisions are unwise. If OO has her consent, I don't see that you have a case. However, if she is being coerced, that is elder abuse. An attorney specializing in elder issues should be able to help.

Once DM has passed away I think the best solution is to have no contact with OO.

 

[Brat]

Your first job should be protecting your Mother financially and otherwise. Ask your Mother's attorney to visit her in circumstances where brother is not present. Let the attorney and your Mother figure out what should be done and ask him to explore possible elder abuse.

Once she has passed then the estate comes in play.

IMHO the administrator of her estate/trust should be a third party, a pit-bull lawyer. I realize this will be more expensive but this brother is too caustic and potentially dangerous.

You and your siblings should have your own lawyer prepared to request a restraining order against brother once Mother has passed.

I have a sister with issues. Fortunately (or unfortunately) she made my Mother angry and as a result the estate that would have been sister's portion went to sister's son.

 

[ERD50]

I would inform your Mother's attorney of what you found.

You have done very well ERD. You have a permanent drama source in your life, and it is very clearly Someone Else's Fault!

One thing I can't quite figure out. You state that none of the "good sibs" needs an inheritance, why not let your mother do whatever she wants? ..

I've apparently done a lousy job communicating the (admittedly complex and emotional) situation.

My mother can do what she wants with the money, she can give it all to charity, the three subs are fine with anything (as long as she is taken care of first).

What I'm trying to avoid is the OO coming after the siblings after she is gone. Even if we got zero inheritance, he would want 'restitution' for imagined issues, and we can pay him from our own stash. And apologize to him for being so mean to him all these years (when it was always the other way 'round'.

Yes, I know you are hearing one side of the story, but I can assure you, every family member, friend and counselor she sees tells her she needs to do the 'tough love' thing, and she won;t and she's created a monster.

Maybe an RO is the only way to go, I'm looking to see if there are better alternatives, maybe not.

I have to run...

-ERD50

 

[Brat]

I agree your Mother has created a monster who has figured out how to get attention. I think the only thing you and your sibs can do is to get a restraining order. What worries me is that he may be a physical threat. Personally I wouldn't want to be in his sights, ever. Mass shooters typically are males who feel disrespected/threatened.

 

[LARS]

Unless OO has demonstrated that he is litigious by having previously sued you, and your siblings, I don't really understand what you are so afraid of after mother passes. Beyond lawsuits, just ignore him and don't feed the fire. If he is litigious, then I don't think you've got anyway out of the box, but to move cross country or overseas...


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[ERD50]

I agree your Mother has created a monster who has figured out how to get attention. I think the only thing you and your sibs can do is to get a restraining order. What worries me is that he may be a physical threat. Personally I wouldn't want to be in his sights, ever. Mass shooters typically are males who feel disrespected/threatened.

Something along this line has kept me up many nights. We have seen him go into rages, just bat-sh!t crazy rages. During what was essentially an 'intervention' with him at one point, he ran out, drove away in his pick up truck to his nearby home, and returned driving like the blazes both ways. We actually video'd the 'intervention', thinking he would behave if he knew he was being taped. We have it on tape where me and my brother are talking about being ready to dial 911 if he gets out of the truck with a gun, and discussed running in opposite directions, maybe he'll only get one of us, and you can see my finger on the "9" button of the phone. You don;t want to experience that feeling.

Every time I read or hear about a domestic squabble that leads to a shooting, I tense up inside. The fear has been way too real for us. I just want him to go away.

He didn't have a gun that time, but being in a position where you literally fear for your life, and are thinking this could be it, I may never see my wife and kids again, well, it has an affect on you. I hope you never, ever experience it.

Unless OO has demonstrated that he is litigious by having previously sued you, and your siblings, I don't really understand what you are so afraid of after mother passes. Beyond lawsuits, just ignore him and don't feed the fire. If he is litigious, then I don't think you've got anyway out of the box, but to move cross country or overseas...

Litigious isn't the concern. I don't think are any lawyers crazy enough to take any case he would present, and if one did, we'd just turn it over to an attorney on our side. Ho hum.

I don't think an RO can protect us against him getting stoned one night and deciding he needs revenge that night. He also could be a major nuisance (better than a physical threat though), and going through the legal system will be a lot of work, I would think. I just want it behind me/

I met with Mom and was able to talk about all these charges from the OO. I asked in such a way that it was clear to us (DW was there too) she didn't OK them, but she wouldn't really admit anything, because she won't say anything bad about him in front of me. But she understands I can't manage her accounts for her if someone is making charges and I don;t know what's legit or not, so she said she will ask him to turn over the cards. DW & my impressions was, she is mad at him (disappointed?), but won't say it in front of us.

Follow up, after the Cubs


-ERD50

 

[Brat]

Your Mom and your sibs are in a tough spot.

Her attorney should be involved in her decisions and I still think you (and sibs) need an attorney to call your own.

 

[Dancfo]

I've been in the trust business for a long time. I can't provide you with legal advice, but can comment on my observations from years of experience.


First, don't put family members between another family member and the money. That's where the value of a corporate trustee comes into play. Of course, companies have different fee structures, but depending on the value of the trust you may be looking at an annual fee of 1.5% or less. There are frequently minimum charges that make anything less than $1,000,000 too expensive. Trust companies are used to dealing with crazies. However, if the crazy is too crazy, and the fees do not justify the trouble (account size will influence this) they may resign. That does not mean you have to take over, but there will need to be an avenue on finding a successor. This is usually in the covered in the document.


Having a clause in the trust about not making distributions based on subjective behavior is difficult. Also, in order to enforce something that requires you to report the activity only subjects you to more harassment. I agree that the trust provisions and the OO's behavior should be separate issues. Don't try to mix the two and leave the distribution of funds to the trustee.


The second point I would like to make is your mother's current vulnerability. My advice is to suggest to your mother that she draws up a trust now and funds it with her assets. She could consider making the bank her current trustee so that there is an objective party between her money and the OO. At some point, your mother's capacity could deteriorate and she could be abused financially. If she does become incapacitated, the trustee would be fully responsible for her financial affairs, leaving you out of it. Of course, anything of this nature should be addressed with her attorney. The attorney should be one that specializes in elder law and/or trusts & estates. Good luck to a terrible situation.

 

[ERD50]

I've been in the trust business for a long time. I can't provide you with legal advice, but can comment on my observations from years of experience. ....

Thanks Dancfo. Good to hear from someone with 'insider knowledge'. I've got some things to catch up on around here, will respond to your informative post later.


-ERD50

 

[kaudrey]

I agree with those who say the harassment issue should not be addressed in any way around the inheritance.

It is a legal issue - if he is harassing you now, which is sounds like he may be, get a restraining order NOW. If he starts harassing you later, get one then. This is not something that should be a financial issue at all. It is a physical safety issue, and you probably should have a conversation with local law enforcement.

 

[ERD50]

Sorry, have not had much time to study and reply. But I'm thinking maybe I need to start a different thread on experiences with RO. My impression is it mostly just a documentation step (an important one in many cases), it's not going to be very effective at stopping harassment.

-ERD50

 

[jon-nyc]

Well its certainly a much more blunt instrument than what you hope to get out of the incentive trust. It would be used to keep him away, not to keep him from bringing up certain topics.

 

[travelover]

Something along this line has kept me up many nights. We have seen him go into rages, just bat-sh!t crazy rages. During what was essentially an 'intervention' with him at one point, he ran out, drove away in his pick up truck to his nearby home, and returned driving like the blazes both ways. We actually video'd the 'intervention', thinking he would behave if he knew he was being taped. We have it on tape where me and my brother are talking about being ready to dial 911 if he gets out of the truck with a gun, and discussed running in opposite directions, maybe he'll only get one of us, and you can see my finger on the "9" button of the phone. You don;t want to experience that feeling.

Every time I read or hear about a domestic squabble that leads to a shooting, I tense up inside. The fear has been way too real for us. I just want him to go away.

He didn't have a gun that time, but being in a position where you literally fear for your life, and are thinking this could be it, I may never see my wife and kids again, well, it has an affect on you. I hope you never, ever experience it.............

Here is the crux of the issue. You are afraid of him, maybe rightfully so, though I suspect he is a wimp at heart. That fear is his power over you and you need to address it.

Rather than dealing with lawyers and trusts, you might be better served with paying someone that deals with security issues to give some advice on how to deal with him in a firm way that yields a positive outcome for you. I don't know specifically what that would consist of, but people with some celebrity have a constant problem with kooks and they deal with them. Perhaps the retired police here will have some advice on how to find a security specialist.

 

[ERD50]

Here is the crux of the issue. You are afraid of him, maybe rightfully so, though I suspect he is a wimp at heart. That fear is his power over you and you need to address it.

Rather than dealing with lawyers and trusts, you might be better served with paying someone that deals with security issues to give some advice on how to deal with him in a firm way that yields a positive outcome for you. I don't know specifically what that would consist of, but people with some celebrity have a constant problem with kooks and they deal with them. Perhaps the retired police here will have some advice on how to find a security specialist.

Thanks, that is another avenue to think about.

I've had talks with Mom about how we fear he may do something rash, but I had to insist to her that she not relate that to him - that would empower him. But who knows?

He may very well be a wimp at heart, and nothing comes of this whatsoever. But I don't want to find out too late! Kind of damned if you do, damned if you don't.

-ERD50

 

[ERD50]

I'm quite surprised by your approach to this situation ERD50. You've stated and restated that your brother is a serious whacko and a genuine threat to the lives of you, your family, your siblings and their families. Yet you're spending your time proposing the likely ineffective solution of an incentive clause in a trust that may not go into effect for years depending on your mother's life span. ...

I'm surprised that no one is commenting on the fact that you're talking about "a gun," "fear for your life," "never see my wife and kids again" and similar with the proposed solution being an incentive clause in a trust which would go into effect sometime in the future, perhaps distant future, giving OO a minor, after the fact, hand slap if he murders you all.

OK, thanks for that feedback, and here is what I think you are missing:

A) While we do consider him a potential threat, and we feared he had a gun that day, the fact is that he didn't. Can you get a restraining order on a fear? I doubt it. But I still feared it, and thought about what might happen if he got out of his truck with a gun. It doesn't change how I felt that day. And it doesn't change how I feel every time I hear about another domestic violence shooting. And it doesn't change that I've had many sleepless nights, worrying about what he might do. And I do consider him a potential threat. But again, I don't think you can get an RO on someone just by saying "I think he could hurt me sometime in the future". And that's probably a good thing. It shouldn't be too arbitrary.

B) While my Mom is alive, he has some restraint, because if he went too far, he could get cut out of any inheritance (he's the only one who 'needs' it).

C) The idea of the incentive trust (which may not be the right way to go, that's why I'm looking for ideas from all the good folks here on this forum), is that when "B" becomes ineffective at Mom's eventual passing, maybe the incentive clause would replace the 'threat' of having his inheritance pulled (a year at a time).

You haven't posted in this thread for over 24 hours. Everything OK?

Yep, had to deal with some calls from the hospital, and some strategizing/planning with my out-of-state brother. And I finally got a little much-needed break from all this drama, and had an excellent beer-pairing dinner at a local restaurant (the brewer is a friend of mine).

I'm open to all ideas. I realize it's hard for people outside this to understand the intricacies of this very weird family situation. I really have a hard time believing it myself. It's like a bad dream

-ERD50

 

[Sunset]

I feel you should just go with the clean trust, run by the bank so you are not in the focus, and are out of his life.

Once your mother dies there will be no more "happy family get-togethers", you can stop seeing OO.

What I think will happen is OO will get a lawyer to break the trust, and the more conditions you stick in it the easier it will be to break.

I know a fellow getting a trust and that is his plan once the parent who set up the trust (for many of the same reasons as OO situation) dies.

Finally, you have to call 911 when needed, get RO's and keep a shotgun at home, never let OO in your house, never.

I'll bet OO has gotten his name on your mothers bank accounts or had himself named as the TOD (transfer on death) beneficiary. Meaning he will legally steal all her money. Obviously you don't ask her in front of him, and if you have POA, you can simply check yourself at the bank(s)/etc.

 

[W2R]

Once your mother dies there will be no more "happy family get-togethers", you can stop seeing OO.

Also, it's remotely possible that OO will drift away and completely stop contacting ERD50 and his other siblings after her death.

Right now his whole life seems centered around manipulating ERD50's mother. When she is no longer in the picture that might change the dynamics of this whole situation for the better.

 

[ERD50]

Also, it's remotely possible that OO will drift away and completely stop contacting ERD50 and his other siblings after her death.

Right now his whole life seems centered around manipulating ERD50's mother. When she is no longer in the picture that might change the dynamics of this whole situation for the better.

It is possible, and that would be a good thing, but I agree with you that it is, unfortunately, a remote possibility.

The OO still has this all-consuming feeling that he was cheated by my other brother, it's become a matter of 'pride' with him to get resolution (not just $, but acknowledgement that he was cheated), and he's mad at me when my mediating attempts didn't side with his (twisted) thoughts. I don't think that will go away with my Mom's passing.

Oh well, I was able to turn over some information/evidence (a 10 year old video of a sort of 'intervention' of my Mom asking OO to stop the harassment) to my out-of-state brother (who has been mostly isolated from this, so has a more unbiased view). It seems that video really got the message to him of just how extreme this has been. Maybe he can help, he's stepped up his involvement, after seeing that video. I don't know if he thought we were exaggerating all this time, or just the distance made it less real/immediate, or if we were never able to communicate this weird stuff effectively. The out-of-state brother said his wife now understands why we fear OO, so there's some independent validation.

-ERD50

 

[Golden sunsets]

ERD; this seems to be an untenable situation while your mother is living. Reading your various comments it appears to me that the problem is entirely her fault and it will continue as long as she lives, or is competent. I think she is the one who needs the tough love from you and your non OO siblings. How ill is she? Do you expect her to recover? If not then time will solve the problem and I'm sure you can remove yourself from this constant anxiety once she has passed. If you expect a recovery, I would suggest an intervention of sorts from you and sibs telling her what her enabling has done to the family dynamic. Once you started talking guns and fear for your life this stopped being an interesting thread and sent up red flags that you need outside professional help (think attorneys, security specialists and last but not least therapists).

My $.02.

 

[ERD50]

ERD; this seems to be an untenable situation while your mother is living. Reading your various comments it appears to me that the problem is entirely her fault and it will continue as long as she lives, or is competent. I think she is the one who needs the tough love from you and your non OO siblings. ...

That is a pretty good read of the situation. Yes, she is the 'enabler' (and to an extent, my Father when he was alive), and ultimately the cause of the problems.

She has got the 'tough love' message from us time and time again, and she has seen counselors, who all tell her the same thing (stop supporting the OO). All her friends and family who have any awareness of this tell her the same thing. She actually managed to 'get it together' enough for that 'intervention' we had with him 10 years ago (the video I mentioned). But she wouldn't hold up to it, she just got weak over time, and everything went back to where it was (or worse).

How ill is she? Do you expect her to recover? If not then time will solve the problem and I'm sure you can remove yourself from this constant anxiety once she has passed. If you expect a recovery, I would suggest an intervention of sorts from you and sibs telling her what her enabling has done to the family dynamic.

We are hoping she returns to a decent quality of life, but she's frail enough, it is going to be very slow going, and this operation was a lot of stress, so we have to be prepared that she could have a quick turn for the worse at any time. Hard to say. She's mentally competent, but very worn out. Between the rehab therapy, and just little things like the effort to eat, have some one shower her and take her to the toilet, she's pretty worn out. She's making progress, but it is very slow.

On one hand, we don't want to bother her with any of this, but on the other hand, the OO has no such qualms, and is in there poisoning her against the rest of the family.

And the big problem that I've been trying to get across is, we don't think this problem will pass with my Mom. We fear that w/o her somewhat reigning him in (only at the extremes), all hell may break lose when she is gone, and he has his inheritance, with no fear of it being taken away.

-ERD50

 

[FIYes]

ERD50, you are hoping that an incentive trust will cause Oo to behave rationally in order to keep his income stream. Are you dealing with a rational person? From your description it sounds not. You think you are dealing with an angry, volatile person now...try taking his money away when he violates some aspect of the trust agreement. I recognize that hope of inheritance is probably part of what keeps him somewhat in line now, but I would guess that is only part of the equation...the mother/son dynamic is a powerful life long dynamic.

My opinion is that an incentive trust would lead to more involvement with OO, not less. For your safety, an inheritance that leads to less involvement should be your goal.


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[Dash man]

Not intending to make light of the situation, but you may have the basis of a good thriller novel here.

 

[ERD50]

ERD50, you are hoping that an incentive trust will cause Oo to behave rationally in order to keep his income stream. Are you dealing with a rational person? ...

My opinion is that an incentive trust would lead to more involvement with OO, not less. For your safety, an inheritance that leads to less involvement should be your goal.

Yes, this may be how it goes. We'll see what my out-of-state brother starts coming up with.

Not intending to make light of the situation, but you may have the basis of a good thriller novel here.

No that's OK. We have to joke around about this a bit from time to time, just to keep our sanity. The trouble with the thriller novel idea is, the actual story is just too unbelievable. Wouldn't even make good fiction!

-ERD50

 

[Animorph]

I'll join with the plain trust crowd, with annuity style payout for the OO. It doesn't seem likely the the OO becomes rational enough to be motivated by an incentive, and may be set off on the other siblings by just its mere presence, with worse if it triggers. While you do lose the possibility of the incentive working for you, there are other ways to handle the problem if it actually comes to pass.