Is indexing good?

. . . Yrs to Go said:
Are you arguing that current equity prices do not impact a company's cost of capital? If so, I respectfully disagree.

I was under the impression that most major corporations raise capital (when the need arises) by issuing debt, not equity. Therefore I don't see how equity prices have a major impact on cost of capital.

Grumpy
 
grumpy said:
I was under the impression that most major corporations raise capital (when the need arises) by issuing debt, not equity.  Therefore I don't see how equity prices have a major impact on cost of capital.

I think we may be coming at this from two different perspectives - mine perhaps a bit more theoretical.

Even if a company does not issue any additional equity in a given year, there is still a theoretical cost of the equity (including retained earnings) currently used to finance the company's existing assets.  How do you judge whether an existing asset creates value for shareholders?  Simply earning a positive return is not enough.  To add value an asset must earn an unlvered return at least as high as the firm's theoretical cost of equity.  Unfortunately, equity does not come with a price tag so the cost must be estimated.  Depending on the model current equity prices or equity beta are used as a basis for this estimate.

I'm not sure how clearly I've explained myself.  However, my basic point is that market data is used to estimate a firm's cost of equity and that companies rely on that estimate in making corporate finance decisions.
 
. . . Yrs to Go:

Thanks for your explanation; it’s very helpful. But I see Mauldin differently. Your second paragraph has a couple issues packed in that bother me slightly. First of all, I don’t see Mauldin as just someone who just advocates active investment management, just as Warren Buffet is not any old active portfolio manager. He looks into markets and sees things that are important for investors to know, and I think he does it better than most. You gathered him up in a bag with all the other active managers and implied they are all bag-ettes :) .

Secondly, I think you belittled his macro-allocation insight. You said “it is the prevalence of indexing (both overt and covert) that causes the market's inefficiency” and then swept that away too. His argument, as I read it, is that indexing takes on a life of its own, becoming a positive feedback loop for even more indexing that works until it doesn’t, until the money starts to flow out and fewer people like it, in one possible instance. This is an important event that explains a part of the reason why index funds and the stocks that underlie them behave the way they do.

I’d like to step away and examine another market sector or actually non-market sector that behaves somewhat similarly to how the indexing ‘positive feedback loop’ works. This could shed some light on indexing, which is on a separate (but related), longer-term cycle

I see the current house price market as containing a mixture of both efficiencies and inefficiencies. The inefficiencies are basically macro in nature: housing prices are just too high all over the place. They are especially high in some areas of the country such as on the west and east coasts. In the mid-west and some pocket areas they are less over priced. I hope most people here would agree with me about that.

One could say that the current housing market is having a macro misallocation problem. Housing is too expensive in general and mostly in the particular too. We can give many good reasons for this misallocation problem that has occurred over the past few years—for argument’s sake—the long run. Everybody here has seen and/or discussed them many times.

We’ve also discussed the micro problem: “Boy, those dang houses are expensive right now.” In most cases each individual that buys a house in our current market is operating efficiently: He or she looks at houses, finds one they like, and negotiates a price that makes them at least reasonably satisfied. They look at comparables that say whether or not the particular house they like is of fair market value. They talk to the bank about how much they can borrow and then spend on a house. They determine if their wages or whatever can support the payments. Then they may start the thinking process of whether it is worth it. Sometimes they have a lot of profit in their current house, which not only says to them that buying a big McMansion has been good in the past it is probably good in the future. Lots of money to be made and nice living in housing. The individual buyer (and the seller) is operating efficiently in the housing marketplace, buying at the best possible price at the time—or so it appears--at that time. Pretty soon, people are just buying real estate on the momentum—a positive feedback loop starts and takes on a life of its own—until it doesn’t.

I, personally, see a great deal of inefficiency in each individual act of buying and selling by ‘rational’ people. This can be examined too: old fashioned value investors in homes will have a tendency to back off from buying at these times—or they sell making them active participants too; growth investors may jump in hog wild, buying more home than they need in anticipation of early retirement or some such other event. This has happened before in other types of markets. So, my question becomes: Can a long (three years?) accumulation of inefficient—yet apparently rational--individual behaviors give rise to an efficient market overall? One doesn’t need more than 50% of people, or some such other quantifiable event, to own or be buying such products to move the market in a particular direction either.

I think the same insight Mauldin offers in his article can be applied to many so-called efficient markets. But each must be applied carefully to particular circumstances to find out if this is true.


What Mauldin offers, although not in detail in a four page article he borrowed, is far more than what you suggest--to my mind. He offers a valuable tool in evaluating financial markets in general, although I am extending this idea further than he might. You said “his argument is essentially no different than that of anyone else who advocates active investment management.” I think you have painted him with too broad of a brush. He has gone into a fair amount of detail about how this macro-misallocation works in the stock market. Having such details and working out specific applications for individual usage, gives one a fair amount of power in determining where, when, and how to allocate ones resources—and how to see the world a little differently. I think you summarized incorrectly, IMO

And, of course, if the housing bubble never breaks but continues to expand then I’m wrong. Or right, but my timing model doesn’t work. :D
 
Fund Indexers, Take (Another) Bow

http://online.wsj.com/public/article/SB113358809326513318.html?mod=sunday_journal_primary_hs

“. . . Most performance-hungry investors don't own just one actively managed fund. Rather, they own a whole fistful of funds -- and with every fund they add, the odds against them grow steeper. . .

“. . . As the record of Vanguard 500 suggests, an index fund will beat roughly three-quarters of comparable actively managed funds over any 10-year stretch. For market junkies, those don't seem like daunting odds. After all, with a little work, they should be able to make it into the top quarter, right?

That might be true if these market junkies were buying just one fund. Problem is, to build their desired portfolios, investors often purchase five, six or even a dozen funds.

Moreover, most of us are investing for a lot longer than 10 years. Figure in those two factors, and suddenly the odds of winning become almost insurmountable. . .

“. . . the more funds you pick and the longer the time period, the worse the odds get. . .

“. . .Suppose, instead, that the two sets of competing portfolios consist of five funds. Suddenly, the odds of an actively managed-fund portfolio beating an indexed portfolio shrink to 35% over one year, 18% over five years, 12% over 10 years and just 5% over 25 years. . .

“. . . the odds of beating an indexing strategy would look even worse if you figured in taxes and investors' bad timing. . ."
 
And don't forget one of the best reasons for keeping money in popular index funds right now: All the retirement money pouring into them. This is very much a positive for indexing. Making money for retirement is a good thing. :)
 
Apocalypse . . .um . . .SOON said:
I think you have painted him with too broad of a brush.  He has gone into a fair amount of detail about how this macro-misallocation works in the stock market.  Having such details and working out specific applications for individual usage, gives one a fair amount of power in determining where, when, and how to allocate ones resources—and how to see the world a little differently.  I think you summarized incorrectly, IMO

And, of course, if the housing bubble never breaks but continues to expand then I’m wrong.  Or right, but my timing model doesn’t work.  :D 

Apocalypse,
I must have missed something because I didn't see anything in the article that would give one "a fair amount of power in determining where, when, and how to allocate ones resources". Are you referencing other sources than the one you linked to the original post?

His argument, as I read it, is that indexing takes on a life of its own, becoming a positive feedback loop for even more indexing that works until it doesn’t, until the money starts to flow out and fewer people like it, in one possible instance.

I don't see any sign that indexing has "stopped working" as Maudin suggests, and he provided no evidence in his article (maybe he supports this thesis elsewhere). I also see no evidence of a "positive feed back loop" caused by index funds that drove market prices higher. His quote:

As the late 1990s craze showed, indexation is a guarantee for capital to be wasted

is over the top. Again, maybe he supports this thesis elsewhere but to blame indexing on the speculative frenzy of the late 90's is completely counter to my recollection of what happened. I don't recall Pets.com finding its way into the S&P 500.

Mauldin also seems to view hedge funds as a symptom of a problem, but I think the reality is that hedge funds are an outgrowth of an increasingly efficient market exploiting new technologies and techniques to further arbitrage away market inefficiencies. Mauldin's comparison of today's hedge funds with active investment managers of 'yesteryear' is misplaced. Hedge funds are doing things today that Peter Lynch's Fidelity Fund could never do. Capital markets are MORE efficient as a result, which bolsters the case for indexing. I saw nothing in Maudin's essay that would support a different conclusion.
 
. . . Yrs to Go: Thanks for answering. Much of the problem may be my fault in not making clear conections. I'm sorry if that's the case. I'll start this way if you don't mind (in a related or unrelated case--to be determined) :

So, do you think we are in a residential real estate bubble right now? If yes, do you see any signs of it that can be measured? If no, do you think any sort of financially-related bubble is possible?

I'm just trying to define/understand terms, so we start on the same page. :)
 
Apocalypse . . .um . . .SOON said:
. . . So, do you think we are in a residential real estate bubble right now?  If yes, do you see any signs of it that can be measured?  If no, do you think any sort of financially-related bubble is possible?

I'm just trying to define/understand terms, so we start on the same page.  :)
Greg,

This article seems like baseless nonsense to me. And how do these questions about real estate relate to anything?

Can you express one of your concerns about indexing in 25 words or less? What really worries you?
 
I don't understand how hedge funds help with 'efficiency'; I thought their bug/feature was the fact that they were into a lot of obscure and IL-liquid areas.


Second, the "bubbles" seem to me like gas in your stomach (sorry, this isn't the bean thread, I know!). There's a LOT of money out there and it needs to go somewhere. When people are scared of stocks, it goes in to RE; when people are scared of RE, it goes into stocks/bonds. It burbles around.

What happens when people are scared of everything? It goes under the mattress? You burn it in the fireplace to keep warm? I guess these people are the 'gold bugs'.

The only thing that would make stock indexing undesirable would seem to be a 1930's-style crash... if you think the regulatory environment is as messed up as it was then.

Seems if you are afraid of pure indexing being too overweighted WRT market cap, then you could roll your own index investments into more foreign and small/micro cap indexes and still benefit from indexing. Or am I wrong?
 
((^+^)) SG said:
Greg,

This article seems like baseless nonsense to me. And how do these questions about real estate relate to anything?

Can you express one of your concerns about indexing in 25 words or less? What really worries you?

SG: I think YTG and I are having definition problems, but currently we are only dealing with side issues. My guess at this point is that he may think that ALLl markets where a buyer and seller agree on a price (and complete a transaction) is a rational and efficient market. Inquiring minds need to know, otherwise we end up arguing about nothingnesses. :)

ladelfina: I like your definition of bubbles. And unlike Allen Greenspan I think they are rational entities that can be understood and acted upon while they occur. But, then again, I think everything understandable has an element of rationality to it, or it couldn't be understood. I need YTG's basic definitions to start.

SG: This may help: I tend to speak-think in experiential syllogistic patterns: For example, someone once said they saw Trombone Al on the grass while at a rumage sale (actually the person was reminded of T-Al while looking at a trombone). This amused me. Later, I was on jury duty and the judge started talking about facts and it reminded me of a Nord's comment the nite before.
Therefore:

The judge talks about facts
Nords talks about facts
Nords is the judge. (to my mind, but not really ;))

Sometimes I confuse what is going on in my mind with reality. But sometimes I don't. YTG can help me find out if I'm wrong.
 
Greg, get a grip! You're sounding crazy! Has Martha been feeding you mind-altering substances? Is there a gas leak in your basement??
 
Apocalypse . . .um . . .SOON said:
Sometimes I confuse what is going on in my mind with reality.

Martha, if you haven't been feeding Greg mind altering substances, then you should be.

There are a number of excellent medications on the market that can help. Many of us on the forum have grown to admire and respect you and it pains us to know what you are enduring. We all know that a mind is a terrible thing to waste and Greg's is surely wasted.

And if he won't take the meds, then YOU take them. One way or the other, you will get some relief. :)
 
REWahoo! said:
Martha, if you haven't been feeding Greg mind altering substances, then you should be.
There are a number of excellent medications on the market that can help. Many of us on the forum have grown to admire and respect you and it pains us to know what you are enduring. We all know that a mind is a terrible thing to waste and Greg's is surely wasted.
And if he won't take the meds, then YOU take them. One way or the other, you will get some relief. :)

Man REW, you are sharp and wicked. :D :LOL: ;)
 
Apocalypse . . .um . . .SOON said:
Nords is the judge.

And jury. And executioner. :D

-----

Personally, I think there is a plot by some board members to have Greg committed so Martha could be single again. I'll get Nords to investigate.
 
BigMoneyJim said:
. . .
Personally, I think there is a plot by some board members to have Greg committed so Martha could be single again. I'll get Nords to investigate.
No plot from me. I'm hoping the two of them will adopt me. :D :D :D
 
REWahoo! said:
Martha, if you haven't been feeding Greg mind altering substances, then you should be.

There are a number of excellent medications on the market that can help.  Many of us on the forum have grown to admire and respect you and it pains us to know what you are enduring.  We all know that a mind is a terrible thing to waste and Greg's is surely wasted.

And if he won't take the meds, then YOU take them.  One way or the other, you will get some relief. :)

I think Martha has been giving him way too many beans and the expanding flatulence is putting pressure on his brain.
:D
 
SG: Nords, aka the judge, was right too. “Gimme something I can sink my teeth into—and not chili.” I had to think your question thru, plus do Martha chores until now. Here's the quick answer:

OK, 56% of the holders of GE are institutional holders. A smaller percentage is Vanguard. My bet is that large holders such as Wells Fargo, State Street, etc. are all holders of pension fund accounts. Many ETFs are just sub-sector funds, such as XLE (energy), RTH (retail), and the financial ETF. Magellan Fund pays its managers bonuses based on beating the S&P 500. There’s probably some overlap there, plus they are too big not to include large cap stocks. I’m sure there are many others that use it as a bench mark.

So, the boomers, the big demographic wave rolling thru the economy, started saving for retirement in the ‘80s, about the time the economy started warming up. They are the richest generation ever—ever. They piled huge amounts of money into index funds—following the seemingly logical Bogle-efficient markets model. Each year they continue to add a little more to their retirement pot.

Speculation: What if this year $100,000,000,000 is added to the entire retirement pot by savers. What if half goes into S&P related funds. What if the S&P goes up 10% this year. What if half of that rise doesn’t come from increasing long-term profitability of S&P companies but, instead, simply from adding more money to the index pot so that the real gains are only 5%. What if this has been going on for quite some time. The supply-demand curve says that if you increase the amount of money to the pool it will raise the price of the product you are buying. One of the most basic products of retirement accounts are large cap index funds and other high cap stocks. Can I disentangle the positive feedback from the legitimate value? That takes longer. This is where the misallocation and positive feedback loop is in play. The misallocation is a part of the whole process. And if this misallocation is true, then someday boomers will start pulling the money out. Will the balloon start to shrink at that time? Will the positive feedback loop turn into a negative feedback loop? The first half of Bullseye Investing explains some of these demographic issues surrounding retirement money.

When George W wanted to change Social Security, the most important part, I suspect, was making sure that this new stream of retirement money would be put into an S&P 500 index and government bonds. Was this to keep the party going? Until it couldn’t any longer? Watch where the money goes and keep your eye on M3.
 
REWahoo! said:
Martha, if you haven't been feeding Greg mind altering substances, then you should be.

There are a number of excellent medications on the market that can help. Many of us on the forum have grown to admire and respect you and it pains us to know what you are enduring. We all know that a mind is a terrible thing to waste and Greg's is surely wasted.

And if he won't take the meds, then YOU take them. One way or the other, you will get some relief. :)

If you think I'll listen to anyone who doesn't put beans in their chili. :D Dang no bean people.
 
Apocalypse . . .um . . .SOON said:
If you think I'll listen to anyone who doesn't put beans in their chili. :D Dang no bean people.

You listen to us because we aren't making those embarassing "bean by-product" noises :D and you can actually hear what we have to say... ;)
 
Apocalypse . . .um . . .SOON said:
. . .
Speculation:  What if this year $100,000,000,000 is added to the entire retirement pot by savers. What if half goes into S&P related funds.  What if the S&P goes up 10% this year.  What if half of that rise doesn’t come from increasing long-term profitability of S&P companies but, instead, simply from adding more money to the index pot so that the real gains are only 5%.  What if . . .
What if everyone in Minnesota comes over to your house and uses your toilet? . . . It will back up and overflow.

So does that mean that you should stop using your toilet?

Make this a little less abstract. What if everyone listened to (pick your favorite radio or TV investment show) and bought every stock that was mentioned? Does that mean you should never own a stock that gets mentioned on an investment show?

Hypothesizing that some effect could become important and could result in a bad impact is a long way from proving that it is important or that the result you hypothesize is the primary effect. The empirical data shows that indexers still do better than most and that their performance advantage gets larger with increasing time. That pretty much disproves the hypothesis. :)
 
Apocalypse . . .um . . .SOON said:
SG:  Nords, aka the judge, was right too. 

So, the boomers, the big demographic wave rolling thru the economy, started saving for retirement in the ‘80s, about the time the economy started warming up.  They are the richest generation ever—ever.  They piled huge amounts of money into index funds—following the seemingly logical Bogle-efficient markets model.  Each year they continue to add a little more to their retirement pot.

Apoc Sometime:

Mostly I tend to passover a large share of your posts. (I had a belly-full of Howard Ruff, Harry Browne, Casey, etc. etc. in the 60's and 70's) ;)

However, I spotlighted a quote of yours (above) that I totally agree with, and flys totally contrary to the posts of our "baby-boomers" on board.
Yourself, Cut=Throat, etc. etc.

Most of you baby-boomers were in your early 30's (Prime time to begin investing), when the most explosive market (for both bonds and stocks) began. It's been largely uninturrpted for 25 years.

My generation (came of investing age in the 60's and 70's), were pretty well disenchanted and worn out trying to figure out a way to actually get ahead by "passive investing" by the
beginning of the time the bell rung. (Early 80's).

With that thought in mind, I have heard many posts, (a lot of them from Cut-Throat) insinuating that the "Boomers" will have a hard time retiring. (A statement that doesn't fly with my personal experience in talking with the folks that I have contact with).

Your statement that the "boomers" are the most wealthy generation ever, certainly has the "potential" to be a fact.

I personally agree with your assessment, and
also agree that we will all be in for some interesting times when they start cashing out. ;)
 
ladelfina said:
I don't understand how hedge funds help with 'efficiency'; I thought their bug/feature was the fact that they were into a lot of obscure and IL-liquid areas.

The term "hedge fund" is used liberally to describe a certain type of unregistered investment fund but says nothing of the investment strategies or tactics.  Although many hedge funds invest in "obscure and illiquid areas" of the market, it is not a requirement.  Several operate simply as long / short funds that buy securities they like and sell short those they don't like - this contrasts with most long-biased mutual funds that may be prohibited from, or strictly limited in, selling short.  This ability to sell short provides a stronger check against "over valued" securities then the traditional mutual fund option of "not buying."  In this way, the expansion of investors able to sell short aids in the efficient pricing of securities.

Beyond this simple example, "hedge funds" have greater flexibility to exploit arbitrage opportunities across many markets and asset classes.  An example would be capital structure arbitrage where a company's debt securities trade out of line with its equity securities.  By arbitraging price discrepancies across markets hedge funds help to improve the pricing of securities generally.  
 
Apocalypse . . .um . . .SOON said:
I think YTG and I are having definition problems, but currently we are only dealing with side issues.  My guess at this point is that he may think that ALLl markets where a buyer and seller agree on a price (and complete a transaction) is a rational and efficient market.  Inquiring minds need to know, otherwise we end up arguing about nothingnesses.  :)

I think you are right to point out that we are arguing about nothingness, but as for the rest . . . :LOL:

As far as market efficiency I believe in the semi-strong form of the efficient market hypothesis with respect to developed financial markets. The strong form is too strong and the weak form is too weak based on my own personal investing experience. I believe prices produced by financial markets generally follow a random walk. I do believe efficient markets are capable of producing bubbles and crashes. I also believe that financial markets rapidly eliminate arbitrage opportunities and other anomalies that produce excess returns (notice the declining profitability of hedge funds).

As far as the residential real estate market goes, I believe several structural impediments keep it from being a reasonably efficient market (no short selling, no ability to arbitrage price differentials, massive illiquidity, etc)

I've thought the residential real estate was "over valued" for years now. But the sheer magnitude of people who think there is a "bubble" kind of suggests otherwise.
 

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