Life is Harder

[Nords]

The increase of working women has increased household incomes somewhat but also decreased the income of working men, so better or not is a relative measure.

While I can believe that men's income has dropped, it's hard to believe that working women are the cause. Do you have a link that supports that causality?

The post war era was a time of great prosperity, the baby boom is proof of that. If things were really getting easier, we would be having more children and those children would be costing us less and still afford whatever else we deemed necessary. That the birthrate is below replacement and is only keep up through immigration indicates to me, whatever the fiscal reality, people do not believe themselves to be better off. This is an area where perception is reality.

Disagree. In general, where women have more access to income (jobs) & education, they choose to have fewer children. The birthrate worldwide is dropping for nearly every first-world country. Perhaps there was also a measurable impact from the legalization of abortions, which didn't really take off until the 1970s.

 

[Hamlet]

Think of the money all these families will save after the housing meltdown is complete

 

[NinjaPigeon]

Think of the money all these families will save after the housing meltdown is complete

None. All their credit cards are maxed trying to keep afloat prior to their foreclosure, and afterwards, they can't buy even a candy bar without an 18% or higher interest rate.

 

[aenlighten]

Caused is a bit too strong

particularly since the boomers were entering the workforce at the same time. An increase in the supply of labor will lower its value and per worker capital investment also lagged at the same time. All of these worked to lower wages overall, but womens wages rose anyway.

The rich do choose to have fewer children and invest more in them, but would they do so even if they could have more and still invest more in them? Even if they could still have all their luxuries? It is really a game of relative expectations. You may be better off, but are you better off than you expected or hoped? I don't doubt we are better off, but neither do I doubt we are not advancing at the same rate our parents did. Not only the war but also recovery from the preceding depression helped them, but I wouldn't want to have to endure another depression for better growth later either. It would be wonderful if growth accelerated to a new higher sustainable level, but we haven't seen that since the industrial revolution.

 

[old woman]

Young people want to start in the middle. When we were young you didn't have a car when you left home or if you did it was very old with no payments, no insurance sometimes too. I got a ride to the city and stayed with some people I knew until I got my first job. When I got my first place it was a room walking distance to my job. The room shared a bathroom with two other rooms. I cooked on a hot plate in my room usually a can of chili beans with no meat sometimes a can of rhubarb I got for 10 cents a can. After a few pay raises I moved to a studio apartment that was furnished but didn't supply anything like dishes and bedding like the first place so my whole pay checks went to get established it was 8 months after I left home before I got a radio as a gift. It was my dream to buy a black and white 12 inch tv someday. I don't think I got a tv until after I was married and a cheap used car was nearly two years after I left home.
Now kids either live with the parents and blow their money on having fun or expect to get a first apartment that is full of nice stuff and a nice car and nice clothes. They think they should be middle class before they are poor.

 

[rs0460a]

Young people want to start in the middle. When we were young you didn't have a car when you left home or if you did it was very old with no payments, no insurance sometimes too. I got a ride to the city and stayed with some people I knew until I got my first job. When I got my first place it was a room walking distance to my job. The room shared a bathroom with two other rooms. I cooked on a hot plate in my room usually a can of chili beans with no meat sometimes a can of rhubarb I got for 10 cents a can. After a few pay raises I moved to a studio apartment that was furnished but didn't supply anything like dishes and bedding like the first place so my whole pay checks went to get established it was 8 months after I left home before I got a radio as a gift. It was my dream to buy a black and white 12 inch tv someday. I don't think I got a tv until after I was married and a cheap used car was nearly two years after I left home.
Now kids either live with the parents and blow their money on having fun or expect to get a first apartment that is full of nice stuff and a nice car and nice clothes. They think they should be middle class before they are poor.

Amen!

 

[Eagle43]

To this very day, I have never had a pair of $200 sneakers, and rarely go to Starbucks.

I'm amening Old Woman's post. I had already done a tour in Japan and shipped out to Europe before I had a car, which I paid for myself. Without the GI Bill, I would have never gone to college (too poor). A black and white tv was a luxury. We even got into the kids' piggy bank to buy bread and milk in the mid-60s.

Is there anybody on this forum who had to stand in line begging for food (an apple) or work as they did during the depression? Anybody jump out of a building cause the market went down?

Enough of this I'm poorer then you are/were. The point is to LBYM which is a central precept of this forum. We are SO LUCKY to have been born in the USA (on 3rd base, heading for home). I'm sure we got a break with WWII aftermath, but it could be argued that Europe got one too, as they rebuilt their infrastructure thus ours is much older now. I believe it is virtually impossible to not have a middle-class lifestyle in the USA if you (a) at least finish high school, (b) get married or into a stable relationship, (c) Work (d) save 10% or more, and (e) Live Below Your Means.

And, as Dennis Miller used to rant, "That's just my opinion, I could be wrong."

 

[FinanceDude]

To this very day, I have never had a pair of $200 sneakers, and rarely go to Starbucks.

I'm amening Old Woman's post. I had already done a tour in Japan and shipped out to Europe before I had a car, which I paid for myself. Without the GI Bill, I would have never gone to college (too poor). A black and white tv was a luxury. We even got into the kids' piggy bank to buy bread and milk in the mid-60s.

Is there anybody on this forum who had to stand in line begging for food (an apple) or work as they did during the depression? Anybody jump out of a building cause the market went down?

Enough of this I'm poorer then you are/were. The point is to LBYM which is a central precept of this forum. We are SO LUCKY to have been born in the USA (on 3rd base, heading for home). I'm sure we got a break with WWII aftermath, but it could be argued that Europe got one too, as they rebuilt their infrastructure thus ours is much older now. I believe it is virtually impossible to not have a middle-class lifestyle in the USA if you (a) at least finish high school, (b) get married or into a stable relationship, (c) Work (d) save 10% or more, and (e) Live Below Your Means.

And, as Dennis Miller used to rant, "That's just my opinion, I could be wrong."

Top five post of the year.........

 

[laurence]

Hey, I gotta stick up for my generation. The T.V. likes to show extreme cases of 30 year olds living with mom and driving a Beemer while slacking at starbucks. But most of my friends are quite accomplished. We all were born on 3rd base heading for home, definitely, but many of us didn't have a total free ride. Dad didn't get me a job, I worked as an unloader at the UPS center moving boxes of rivets off of mac trucks (1350 an hour was the quota), and at one point was renting a room and sleeping on couch cushions on the floor. My parents were always there, so I never would have been homeless, and while I never starved, the top ramen got old.

When DW and I got married, we lived in her 500 sq foot apartment in a so-so part of town. The biggest gift we got from our parents was some furniture from the unfinished furniture store for our wedding (her parents) and a washer and dryer when we bought our house (my parents). And a lot of us are in the same boat. We aren't all Paris Hilton!

Comparing the luxuries of yesterday to what kids have now is just not right, think of how much that black and white t.v. cost in real dollars compared to my HDTV. I bet it was a lot more.

 

[aenlighten]

It does raise the question

of what parents want for their children and what children want for themselves. Are parents satisfied if their children have an equally comfortable life, do they demand and expect they have a better life, or not content with that are they only satisfied if they climb further up the social hierarchy? What are their children satisfied with? Are they dissatisfied, merely disappointed, content, or delighted? Without some dissatisfaction there probably wouldn't be any progress, but too much can bring unhappiness.

 

[HFWR]

We were so poor, we were sold for medical experiments...

In much of flyover country, one could live in a 3/1 1200sf home with no A/C, have one moderately priced sedan, with one stay-at-home mom, on one salary...

 

[Milton]

Supply and Demand

While I can believe that men's income has dropped, it's hard to believe that working women are the cause. Do you have a link that supports that causality?

I suppose it makes sense to expect that if the workforce is essentially doubled, more people are chasing (essentially) the same number of jobs, so overall wages would decline.

But of course things are not so simplistic; there are multiple factors to consider.

 

[samclem]

But of course things are not so simplistic; there are multiple factors to consider.

Yes, especially the unavoidable competition from other workers around the world.

 

[toofrugalformycat]

Economically, I believe life is harder for the average kid trying to pay for college. Unless we can reproduce the free college the WWII generation had, or the cheaper tuition that us boomers had, our country will continue its economic decline as we become ever more uneducated compared to other countries.

Sociologically, I believe it is much better now. Racial and sex discrimination is not only recognized, but illegal, so there is less of it. And thanks to Rowe v. Wade, women have more control over the direction of their lives when birth control fails. That is huge.

It's so cool to talk with young women today and hear how they take their equal rights for granted, the rights that we boomer women had to fight for.

 

[Jay_Gatsby]

Economically, I believe life is harder for the average kid trying to pay for college. Unless we can reproduce the free college the WWII generation had, or the cheaper tuition that us boomers had, our country will continue its economic decline as we become ever more uneducated compared to other countries.

Sociologically, I believe it is much better now. Racial and sex discrimination is not only recognized, but illegal, so there is less of it. And thanks to Rowe v. Wade, women have more control over the direction of their lives when birth control fails. That is huge.

I agree with you 100% that college costs are completely out of control. Why? For the same reason that housing prices were out of control -- too much money is available. Anyone can get a student loan, in amounts up to $200k (for professional school). Colleges know this, and everyone thinks they should be going to the "best" college they can get into (with "best" = private in many cases). With most professor salaries still under $100k a year, you have to wonder where the student tuition money is going.

As for Roe v. Wade, I'd like a similar ruling for men who don't want to have kids, and don't want to be forced into supporting one that they didn't want (this is a whole 'nother post in and of itself, but you have to admit that the abortion/child support playing field isn't exactly even).

 

[Texas Proud]

Well, with the college costs... there are a lot of the high priced ones that could stop charging tuition and it would not matter. They have billions in endowments that could pay for all students tuition... and they want MORE money...

I have wondered where all that increase is going... but I think a lot of colleges use it for sports and research. They want to have people discover things.

 

[Nords]

Unless we can reproduce the free college the WWII generation had,

"Free"?!? I'd say they paid pretty dearly for their GI Bill benefits...

 

[old woman]

"Free"?!? I'd say they paid pretty dearly for their GI Bill benefits...

I didn't hear about anyone getting a free education because of when they were born. My mom finished high school in 1944 and if she wanted more education her parents had saved to send her to secretarial school.
GI bill is only for service members my brothers got it and my boyfriend but they fought in Viet Nam not WWII.
The problem with the cost is entirely student loans if they didn't have them only kids with scholarships or who had parents that saved to send them could go unless they worked full time while going.
I worked my way through college with no help and no loans but it wasn't that bad because it was before everyone tried to send every kid.

 

[Razor]

I didn't hear about anyone getting a free education because of when they were born. My mom finished high school in 1944 and if she wanted more education her parents had saved to send her to secretarial school.
GI bill is only for service members my brothers got it and my boyfriend but they fought in Viet Nam not WWII.
The problem with the cost is entirely student loans if they didn't have them only kids with scholarships or who had parents that saved to send them could go unless they worked full time while going.
I worked my way through college with no help and no loans but it wasn't that bad because it was before everyone tried to send every kid.

I worked my way through college too. It took longer but it still can be done. What I see today is a spoiled younger generation that is more concerned about tattoos, i-pods, video games and cell phones than earning some money. They do not have much of a work ethic because their parents do everything for them. Our generation is better off than the last one and the result is making sure the kids have everything possible. The shock will come when they finally leave the nest and do not have the tools to make it on their own. One reason why so many kids are moving back in with Mom and Pop.

 

[Nords]

They do not have much of a work ethic because their parents do everything for them. Our generation is better off than the last one and the result is making sure the kids have everything possible. The shock will come when they finally leave the nest and do not have the tools to make it on their own. One reason why so many kids are moving back in with Mom and Pop.

Sounds like a self-fulfilling parenting problem to me. Once Mom & Pop get it right the "kids" will probably move on...

 

[laurence]

Sounds like we are quoting Socrates on this board now.

Wasn't "Rebel without a cause" filmed in the early 60's? Young people have always been the same.

 

[rs0460a]

Sounds like we are quoting Socrates on this board now.

Wasn't "Rebel without a cause" filmed in the early 60's? Young people have always been the same.

Actually - 1955

 

[kcowan]

Yabbut newer parents seem to have both the will and the way to keep their kids dependent.

 

[toofrugalformycat]

Nords said ""Free"?!? I'd say they paid pretty dearly for their GI Bill benefits..."

Agreed, I put it too simply. But my orphaned father, penniless, raised in a Catholic orphanage, after coming back from WWII, had his full tuition paid and was given a stipend so he didn't have to work his way through school. If he hadn't been given that, he'd probably have been a hired farm hand all his life (what he did summers as a boy). As it is he had a very successful career as a civil engineer.

Ask today's vets if they get it that good - my cousin didn't after serving in Kosovo. Did Vietnam vets get full expenses plus stipend? I don't know.

The WWII generation was an aberration, I admit, but I believe that education available to a wide swath of the population, including the poor, had a lot to do with the unparalleled prosperity of the U.S. in the late 20th century. It wasn't just because the rest of the industrialized nations were bombed out. Our population was better educated.

 

[old woman]

My boyfriend served to tours in Nam around 1964 and when he decided to go to community college in 1989 he got the same tuition he would have paid in 1964 they just froze it, he didn't get any extra benefit.
My little brother joined the Navy in 1968 and served 9 years he was paid to go to college. He only went to get the money to help his wife go to college he didn't even want an education, he is now a retired pipe fitter and his wife has a masters and will be retiring in a couple of years.