Mortgage market has gone crazy

Harley, I think you are stuck. The agencies are pretty much the entire mortgage market now so nobody does any real credit-based underwriting on mortgages any more. Everything is based on agency requirements and those are focused solely on income. Unless you are willing to get a day job that would allow you to qualify for a mortgage, you are stuck with what you have.
Suppose one has (1) Social Security income, (2) withdrawals from retirement accounts. What does the government want to see from item #2 to get the best rates? The retirement withdrawals for us are completely discretionary.
 
Suppose one has (1) Social Security income, (2) withdrawals from retirement accounts. What does the government want to see from item #2 to get the best rates? The retirement withdrawals for us are completely discretionary.

I don't know. The underwriting software from Fannie and Freddie changes regularly. The best way to find out would be a frank chat with a mortgage broker.
 
Hew Brew, always good to hear from you. DH and I put our house on the market about a month ago here in the DC area. Carefully priced with a top notch agent plus verified with our own independent research. No takers yet but lots of lookers. Already thinking about a price drop before the summer slump hits. Hope this gives us hope....
 
Suppose one has (1) Social Security income, (2) withdrawals from retirement accounts. What does the government want to see from item #2 to get the best rates? The retirement withdrawals for us are completely discretionary.

I'm like 14 years away from getting SS, but I know that works just fine for income for a mortgage, as would a pension or a SPIA. I'm pretty sure the retirement withdrawals don't help. That's just money in an account, not an "income". If that counted I'd have qualified. Althouth I guess RMDs would count. Maybe in 14 or 15 years we'll have made it through the next bust/boom cycle and rates will be low again. Then I'll have SS and RMDs, and can get a freaking mortgage worth < 10% of my net worth. Grrrr.
 
I'm like 14 years away from getting SS, but I know that works just fine for income for a mortgage, as would a pension or a SPIA. I'm pretty sure the retirement withdrawals don't help. That's just money in an account, not an "income". If that counted I'd have qualified. Althouth I guess RMDs would count. Maybe in 14 or 15 years we'll have made it through the next bust/boom cycle and rates will be low again. Then I'll have SS and RMDs, and can get a freaking mortgage worth < 10% of my net worth. Grrrr.
2 years ago the retirement withdrawals were considered income. You have to show them the Fed 1040 where it was taxed. But maybe things have changed?
 
2 years ago the retirement withdrawals were considered income. You have to show them the Fed 1040 where it was taxed. But maybe things have changed?

Sorry, but I may have misunderstood. If by retirement accounts you mean IRAs or 401(k)s, you may be right about them counting. I'm not eligible yet for withdrawals from those without penalties, so my retirement accounts are all after tax. It could be that what shows up on line 37 (AGI) of your Federal Taxes is the most important thing, or it might be line 43 (Taxable Income) is most important. I have a decent AGI, but am only in the 4 digit range in taxable.

Well, if I'm stuck in no-refi land, maybe I can make up the difference with ongoing low cost Roth conversions.
 
...(snip)...
Well, if I'm stuck in no-refi land, maybe I can make up the difference with ongoing low cost Roth conversions.
We had been doing Roth conversions before taking SS. Our conversions were high enough to make it look like highish AGI on the 1040. So this luckily allowed us to qualify for a refi in 2010.

It might not help you right now, but should the rate situation continue towards the end of the year you could make a large Roth conversion to push up your AGI in December. Then take that to your loan source maybe in January 2013.
 
We had been doing Roth conversions before taking SS. Our conversions were high enough to make it look like highish AGI on the 1040. So this luckily allowed us to qualify for a refi in 2010.

It might not help you right now, but should the rate situation continue towards the end of the year you could make a large Roth conversion to push up your AGI in December. Then take that to your loan source maybe in January 2013.

That was one of my thoughts, but if that qualifies me for the loan I'll be really PO'd. Not that I won't take the money, but still, how stoopid can they be?
 
That was one of my thoughts, but if that qualifies me for the loan I'll be really PO'd. Not that I won't take the money, but still, how stoopid can they be?
They were stupid in 2010. Human nature to get excessively dumb in the other direction after the errors of previous years.
 
what the hey! locked with that home box loan outfit brewer mentioned. For $360 to bring us down to a 3.5% and save $125/month, why not?

it can't be any worse than our current lender...
 
Too bad Box doesn't loan to residents of my state. I am still looking for no/low closing cost refis. Am at 4.875 fixed right now.
 
I was more than shocked when we were able to get approved for a 417k mortgage on top of the 320K we were already in debt on with a mortgage on a primary and a home equity loan on a rental. The mortgage broker said that we were at the max 45% debt to income ratio...We did what I would never recommend someone else do, replace our primary home before selling it. Lucky for us we closed on the sale of our primary home 3 days after our closing on our new home.

I asked the mortgage broker how we were able to get approved and she said combination of high credit scores, stable retirement income, and age (young enough to go back to work if we needed to). Hmmm
 
If mortgae rates are so low, Would it be worth financing our home that is owned free and clear? At 3% money is so cheap. Rates HAVE to rise sooner or later. I have toyed with this for a while now. Perhaps get an interest only 15 year or something. We have not had a mortgage payment since 1997 it may be hard to go back to one.

SWR.
 
SWR, if I recall correctly you are uncomfortable with any investment other than CD's, etc. So I would have to assume you'd be investing whatever funds you receive from taking out a mortgage at 1-2%, losing the difference between the interest earned and what you are paying in interest on the mortgage - plus inflation losses. And if interest rates don't increase significantly for the next several years...?

Sounds like a sure fire way to speed up depleting a portfolio to me, but then check my sig line. :)
 
SWR, if I recall correctly you are uncomfortable with any investment other than CD's, etc. So I would have to assume you'd be investing whatever funds you receive from taking out a mortgage at 1-2%, losing the difference between the interest earned and what you are paying in interest on the mortgage - plus inflation losses. And if interest rates don't increase significantly for the next several years...?

Sounds like a sure fire way to speed up depleting a portfolio to me, but then check my sig line. :)

Probably the much easier and cheaper way to make this "play" in one's portfolio is to buy a put option on TLT or enter into a similar position in the 30 year treasury futures market. I don't necessarily advise doing so (the decision on whether this is a wise idea is an exercise left up to the reader), but doing it via taking out a morgage seems like an awfully inconvenient and expensive way to do so.
 
SWR, if I recall correctly you are uncomfortable with any investment other than CD's, etc. So I would have to assume you'd be investing whatever funds you receive from taking out a mortgage at 1-2%, losing the difference between the interest earned and what you are paying in interest on the mortgage - plus inflation losses. And if interest rates don't increase significantly for the next several years...?

Sounds like a sure fire way to speed up depleting a portfolio to me, but then check my sig line. :)

Yup, which is why I pay myself 3.5% by not having a mortgage (or any other kind of debt for that matter). But thought I would try to solicit opinions anyway.

If it makes you feel better, I have been looking at Wellesley and mulling. Perhaps throwing a little at it may not be a bad idea. Also I am not limited to US and Canada. Australia is paying ~3.5% + on CD equivalents. The UK is paying ~3.2%. I have access to both markets.

See I do listen.

:) SWR.
 
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See I do listen.
Whatever you decide to do I recommend you do it gradually - and that's what I think I'm seeing from your responses. You won't do yourself any favors by buying into the market then selling once we hit the first bump in the road - and there will be bumps. If you buy Wellesley (or any other fund) and the value dips, look at it like many of us do - as a sale and a buying opportunity. :)

Also, I know nothing about buying international CD's but I suspect we'd be hearing from a lot of people lauding the merits of that strategy if there weren't tax or other issues associated with owning those accounts.
 
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That was one of my thoughts, but if that qualifies me for the loan I'll be really PO'd. Not that I won't take the money, but still, how stoopid can they be?
They ae not stupid. They just don't care. If that loan should ever get into trouble, the guys who sold it to you will have taken the money and run. They just need to fill in the blanks on the Fannie/Freddie paperwork.

Ha
 
Whatever you decide to do I recommend you do it gradually - and that's what I think I'm seeing from your responses. You won't do yourself any favors by buying into the market then selling once we hit the first bump in the road - and there will be bumps. If you buy Wellesley (or any other fund) and the value dips, look at it like many of us do - as a sale and a buying opportunity. :)

Also, I know nothing about buying international CD's but I suspect we'd be hearing from a lot of people lauding the merits of that strategy if there weren't tax or other issues associated with owning those accounts.

I do not want to sabotage this thread but let us say it is sinking in. I am plotting the performance of Wellesley over the next month or 2 before I quit work. I need to also research some other good dividend paying low fee Mutual funds.

SWR
 
If it makes you feel better, I have been looking at Wellesley and mulling. Perhaps throwing a little at it may not be a bad idea.
"Throwing a little" at Wellesley or anything else is on form a bad idea. Having a mental image of throwing money will eventually land you in the ditch.

Ha
 
DW and I built a house last year and have a 30 year traditional at 4.375

I just locked in 3.375 for a 20 year refi with Amerisave. The payment on the refi is about $200/mo more than what I pay now, closing costs will be about $1900.
 
So, does anybody have any knowledge or ideas? Does the Roth conversion kick to my income count as far as mortgage income calculations go? I'd love to be able to take advantage of this. I never considered that having enough money to pay off the mortgage many times over wouldn't count towards my loan eligibility. Also the fact that I currently pay a higher payment without any problem, and a lower payment would only make paying the loan easier. Damn banking industry. Anyway, any help would be appreciated.

Try looking for an asset depletion loan. Basically in an asset depletion loan they look at the assets you have versus your life expectancy to determine the loan amount. It is OK for the assets to be in retirement accounts if you are over a certain age (which I don't recall what that is).
 
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Yup, which is why I pay myself 3.5% by not having a mortgage (or any other kind of debt for that matter). But thought I would try to solicit opinions anyway.

If it makes you feel better, I have been looking at Wellesley and mulling. Perhaps throwing a little at it may not be a bad idea. Also I am not limited to US and Canada. Australia is paying ~3.5% + on CD equivalents. The UK is paying ~3.2%. I have access to both markets.

See I do listen.

:) SWR.

Take the equivalent of the mortgage payments you would be making if you refinanced and carefully place them into Wellesley each month. Best of both worlds imho.
 
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