Join Early Retirement Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
OK, job advice requested
Old 08-20-2009, 10:32 PM   #1
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
SecondCor521's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Boise
Posts: 2,402
OK, job advice requested

Hi all,

I find myself in a position I've never been in and could use input.

I've been working since October 2008 for a small ~18 person company that's been around 5 years. I like it there a lot -- the people, my manager, the work I do, the product serves a need, the commute is easy, and I have flexibility with my kids. I've built quite a reputation as a dedicated, hard, good worker there and consider several people there friends, including my boss.

The main drawback is that the company is very cash flow constrained and I have therefore recently begun working for company stock. Kinda like a 100% ESPP, with the added bonus that the company is privately held and 100% illiquid.

I've got enough cash to last for several months easily, and several more months with a moderate amount of hassle.

I was visiting with a high school friend a while back, and her younger brother happens to work for another company here. I passed along my resume, and to make a long story short, passed the two phone interviews and today the recruiter asked me when next week I could come for an onsite interview.

Setting aside the question of which job should I take for the moment (because I haven't been offered one yet), I'm assuming this will be a several hour thing.

Question: How do I handle this conflict between trying to be and appear dedicated to my current employer which I like but doesn't pay my bills and a potential employer that I'd probably like less but might pay me up to 20% to 25% more than what I'm "making" now?

A. Fake being sick or some other personal appointment. Normally this is what I have done in the past. Now I'm trying to be more honest and I like my current employment situation more.

B. Say to company B that I'm available but only in the evening and on weekends. Seems silly.

C. Be up front with my current company and say gently, "I'd like to stay, but this whole 'getting paid in stock' thing doesn't work for me because my ex-wife and the mortgage company don't take company shares, so I'm going to go interview at Evil Rich Company." Seems cruel to them and dangerous to me.

D. Say I have a personal appointment that requires several hours off. Truthful, but I bet my boss would see right through it. He'd probably be understanding but might wonder why I wasn't up front with him.

E. Some mixture or variation of the above.

F. Other?

2Cor521
__________________

__________________
"At times the world can seem an unfriendly and sinister place, but believe us when we say there is much more good in it than bad. All you have to do is look hard enough, and what might seem to be a series of unfortunate events, may in fact be the first steps of a journey." Violet Baudelaire.
SecondCor521 is online now   Reply With Quote
Join the #1 Early Retirement and Financial Independence Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

Are you planning to be financially independent as early as possible so you can live life on your own terms? Discuss successful investing strategies, asset allocation models, tax strategies and other related topics in our online forum community. Our members range from young folks just starting their journey to financial independence, military retirees and even multimillionaires. No matter where you fit in you'll find that Early-Retirement.org is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally FREE!

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest so you have limited access to our community. Please take the time to register and you will gain a lot of great new features including; the ability to participate in discussions, network with our members, see fewer ads, upload photographs, create a retirement blog, send private messages and so much, much more!

Old 08-20-2009, 11:40 PM   #2
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 281
Can you take half a vacation day? If not I'd just go with the tried and true doctors appointment excuse or something similar.
__________________

__________________
TooFrugal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2009, 11:41 PM   #3
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
BunsGettingFirm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,502
I'd use a vacation day and just say you have things to do. You can't count on your next job before they make an offer, so it is best to be hush hush at your current place. Besides, once you let the secret out that you are interviewing, you won't be viewed as a dedicated employee even if you are. I'm assuming that you do have vacation days.
__________________
BunsGettingFirm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2009, 11:55 PM   #4
Full time employment: Posting here.
Urchina's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Central Coast, California
Posts: 891
Take vacation or personal leave. I would not recommend taking a sick day because you're not sick. Tell your boss that you have some personal business to attend to and would like to take a day off.

Or, to camouflage it more easily, arrange the interview at Evil Company X for a Friday or a Monday, then take a three-day-weekend. That's easy, everyone does that!
__________________
"You'd be surprised at how much it costs to look this cheap." -- Dolly Parton
Urchina is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2009, 12:16 AM   #5
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
bbbamI's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Dallas 'burb
Posts: 9,039
Tell them you need to take a day off. You shouldn't have to tell them why. If they ask you, tell them it's personal business. I assume they know you have children....let them draw their own conclusions.
__________________
There's no need to complicate, our time is short..
bbbamI is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2009, 06:18 AM   #6
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
freebird5825's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: East Nowhere, 43N Latitude, NY
Posts: 9,017
A. Fake being sick or some other personal appointment. Normally this is what I have done in the past. Now I'm trying to be more honest and I like my current employment situation more.
Faking sick is too transparent, you'll be back the next day.

B. Say to company B that I'm available but only in the evening and on weekends. Seems silly.
Agreed - you need to be there exactly when they set the interview time.

C. Be up front with my current company and say gently, "I'd like to stay, but this whole 'getting paid in stock' thing doesn't work for me because my ex-wife and the mortgage company don't take company shares, so I'm going to go interview at Evil Rich Company." Seems cruel to them and dangerous to me.
Agreed - too dangerous if Company B offer doesn't happen.

BTW, I am just amazed at this method of payment for your services. Is that even legal?
I'm assuming you are under a court order for child support. If Company B comes through and you accept the offer, this would be my main reason given for quitting. As they say "Follow the money..."

D. Say I have a personal appointment that requires several hours off. Truthful, but I bet my boss would see right through it. He'd probably be understanding but might wonder why I wasn't up front with him.
Hmmmm...in my book it is really none of his business what you are doing if you have approved time off.

Good luck with your interview.
__________________
"All our dreams can come true, if we have the courage to pursue them." - Walt Disney
freebird5825 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2009, 07:06 AM   #7
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Milton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,074
Quote:
The main drawback is that the company is very cash flow constrained and I have therefore recently begun working for company stock. Kinda like a 100% ESPP, with the added bonus that the company is privately held and 100% illiquid.
That's horrible. Essentially you are working for free. And it seems entirely plausible that the "cash flow constrained" company - which cannot meet payroll - will shortly become insolvent, in which case you'll be out of a job like it or not.

No matter how cushy the current working arrangements, you would be wise to find alternative employment.

Quote:
Tell them you need to take a day off. You shouldn't have to tell them why.
Check.

Quote:
Or, to camouflage it more easily, arrange the interview at Evil Company X for a Friday or a Monday, then take a three-day-weekend. That's easy, everyone does that!
Excellent advice.

Quote:
Be up front with my current company
No percentage in that strategy.
__________________
"To know what you prefer, instead of humbly saying Amen to what the world tells you you ought to prefer, is to have kept your soul alive". Robert Louis Stevenson, An Inland Voyage (1878)
Milton is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2009, 07:30 AM   #8
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
target2019's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 3,705
Everything about your circumstance throws up caution flags for me. It sounds like your employer is going out of business. Ditch the loyalty, take a day off, and go to the interview.
__________________
target2019 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2009, 07:37 AM   #9
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
tryan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,449
Take a vacation day. Don't tell your employer about the interview.

Being paid in company stock is essentially working for free. Your boss has to know the writing is on the walls ... mass exitous coming.

Time to cover your behind.
__________________
FIRE'd since 2005
tryan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2009, 07:52 AM   #10
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
freebird5825's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: East Nowhere, 43N Latitude, NY
Posts: 9,017
Just had a light bulb go off in my head...

F. Other?

AFTER you have your interview, if you have a really good rapport with the company owner (or manager to stay within chain of command), is there any chance they could lay you off so you could get UI benefits temporarily while they straighten out their cash flow problems?
You could cite any number of reasons. One that occurs to me is your child support obligations and the drain on your personal savings to meet that.
Just an idea...
__________________
"All our dreams can come true, if we have the courage to pursue them." - Walt Disney
freebird5825 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2009, 07:59 AM   #11
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
RonBoyd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Denver, Colorado
Posts: 5,280
I am firmly in the "never, ever Lie" camp. The New York Times had a two parts series a couple weeks ago that may offer some guidance.

Seven Lies About Lying (Part 1)

Seven Lies About Lying (Part 2)

Whatever you decide, however, make sure YOU were considered most important. You don't get many shots at this type of thing in one lifetime. But I guess you already know that otherwise we wouldn't have this thread to dwell on.
__________________
"It's tough to make predictions, especially when it involves the future." ~Attributed to many
"In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. But, in practice, there is." ~(perhaps by) Yogi Berra
"Those who have knowledge, don't predict. Those who predict, don't have knowledge."~ Lau tzu
RonBoyd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2009, 08:47 AM   #12
Administrator
W2R's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: New Orleans
Posts: 38,852
If your present employer knew that you were looking for a job that would pay you actual money, maybe they would start doing the same in order to keep you.

Just a thought.

Even though you regard them as friends, it's a rough world out there and your business interactions must not be influenced by your supposed friendship. Don't let them take advantage of you.
__________________
Already we are boldly launched upon the deep; but soon we shall be lost in its unshored, harbourless immensities.

- - H. Melville, 1851
W2R is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2009, 08:54 AM   #13
Full time employment: Posting here.
Lusitan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Boston
Posts: 620
Quote:
Originally Posted by SecondCor521 View Post
D. Say I have a personal appointment that requires several hours off. Truthful, but I bet my boss would see right through it. He'd probably be understanding but might wonder why I wasn't up front with him.
I think this is the best option. I believe it's one of the understandings of our society that goes without saying -- nobody makes an announcement to their current employer about interviewing or looking for other work. (Likewise, no employer makes an announcement that they are "considering" laying you off ... they make the decision and then they tell you.)

They'd drop you in a heartbeat if it made business sense, and you'd be expected to understand that "it's nothing personal, it's just business". Run your career like a business.
__________________
Lusitan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2009, 08:59 AM   #14
Moderator
Sarah in SC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Charleston, SC
Posts: 13,456
What Lusitan said--run your career like a business.

Take the whole day off, say whatever you feel like saying about it--you have an appointment, period.

I would not work for company stock. Even if I liked them. Red flags as others have said.

Good luck--you need to get this new job--you won't be working forever, and you need to be saving up money now for retirement, not working for free to help out your friends.
__________________
“One day your life will flash before your eyes. Make sure it's worth watching.”
Gerard Arthur Way

Sarah in SC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2009, 09:03 AM   #15
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 7,526
I'd say I'm taking a half day off to take care of personal business. Make something up if pressed - sign some docs at the bank, drs appt, waiting on a/c repair guy at house, etc. White lies = no harm. Simply a cover story for your subterfuge. I had to take 3 days off for something similar recently (career switch related, licensing exam and interview), and just told them I'm taking 3 days off for vacation "to take care of some things around the house, spend some time with the kids, and maybe take a little trip to visit relatives". Factually accurate so not even a lie. Just a plausible cover story.

Edit to add: I don't see an issue with working for company stock if that could potentially pay off big time if the company was acquired. One of the few ways to make a ton of money relatively easily. Or get nothing.
__________________
FUEGO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2009, 09:10 AM   #16
Moderator
Walt34's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Eastern WV Panhandle
Posts: 16,511
Quote:
Originally Posted by SecondCor521 View Post
The main drawback is that the company is very cash flow constrained and I have therefore recently begun working for company stock. Kinda like a 100% ESPP, with the added bonus that the company is privately held and 100% illiquid.
This is nuts. I'd have been gone long ago. The grocery stores don't want dedication and good feelings, they want cold hard cash. In the meantime you're making the bet that the company stock will be worth something someday, living off your savings, and the company is essentially getting your work for free.

If they can't make payroll I think the bet on the company stock is at best overly optimistic.
__________________
I heard the call to do nothing. So I answered it.
Walt34 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2009, 09:51 AM   #17
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 13,267
Quote:
Originally Posted by Walt34 View Post
This is nuts. I'd have been gone long ago. The grocery stores don't want dedication and good feelings, they want cold hard cash. In the meantime you're making the bet that the company stock will be worth something someday, living off your savings, and the company is essentially getting your work for free.

If they can't make payroll I think the bet on the company stock is at best overly optimistic.
I am in this camp.... screw them... cash is what you get paid with... stock is a 'bonus'... unless you are independently rich and you KNOW that the stock is going to go public at a big increase... none of these seem to match your post...

Go for the interview... get another job... in fact, get another job even if the interview does not go well... your company is not going to make it if they can not pay any of their employees... so as someone else said, you are now (and have been) working for free...
__________________
Texas Proud is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2009, 10:08 AM   #18
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
TromboneAl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 11,197
And don't forget to keep us posted.
__________________
Al
TromboneAl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2009, 10:13 AM   #19
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Rustward's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 1,572
You have personal business to attend to. Don't fake anything. Don't tell the current employer you are interviewing elsewhere, though.

Do the best you can for yourself (and your children et al.), then do the best you can for your employer (whoever that may be).

Best of luck.
__________________
Rustward is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2009, 10:31 AM   #20
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 160
If you can afford it, one of the ways to get fabulously wealthy is to work for stock when a company is small before they make it big. OTOH most of them will NOT make it big, so you are risking working for free. In fact that's the most likely outcome, so you have to be able to afford the risk (gamble).

You haven't given any details of how much stock you are getting. Most little companies overvalue their stock by a factor of 10 or more and are stingy about how much stock they have employees buy. If you are getting tiny fractions of a percent of ownership, then even if this company does turnaround you will still own almost nothing. VCs taking the company to the next level will demand (and get) a big percentage of stock, further decreasing your stake.

If this is a founder or near founder deal (shares are pennies and you are getting significant percentages) you might entertain doing it for a while, but there has to be a clear route to profitability, to ability to cover their own true costs, to growth and a possibility to turn this ownership into real money. Everyone I know who went into a deal like this because company resources were tight has ended up with worthless stock. All those companies were in trouble and have employees work for stock didn't solve the fundamental problems. YMMV.

If you do decide to look for work elsewhere (which is a good way to hedge your bets if nothing else) taking the high road is always a good idea. Take an official vacation day for your business instead of a fake sick day. Don't tell your current employer you are interviewing. Even if they are not paying you (and they aren't) they will think you disloyal if they think you are interviewing. Confirming it will just put plans in motion to replace you at the earliest opportunity. Too much information can be self defeating.
__________________

__________________
quietman is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
I need some job/career advice - thanks in advance TennisFan Young Dreamers 27 07-18-2009 04:06 PM
Advice requested for after tax ER nun FIRE and Money 4 04-24-2006 02:49 PM
Advice: getting back into a govt job soupcxan FIRE and Money 11 10-24-2005 10:33 PM
Job Advice wildcat Young Dreamers 15 02-26-2005 08:23 AM
Advice: which job to take? soupcxan Young Dreamers 23 11-19-2004 11:23 PM

 

 
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:59 PM.
 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.