OK, job advice requested

[SecondCor521]

Hi all,

I find myself in a position I've never been in and could use input.

I've been working since October 2008 for a small ~18 person company that's been around 5 years. I like it there a lot -- the people, my manager, the work I do, the product serves a need, the commute is easy, and I have flexibility with my kids. I've built quite a reputation as a dedicated, hard, good worker there and consider several people there friends, including my boss.

The main drawback is that the company is very cash flow constrained and I have therefore recently begun working for company stock. Kinda like a 100% ESPP, with the added bonus that the company is privately held and 100% illiquid.

I've got enough cash to last for several months easily, and several more months with a moderate amount of hassle.

I was visiting with a high school friend a while back, and her younger brother happens to work for another company here. I passed along my resume, and to make a long story short, passed the two phone interviews and today the recruiter asked me when next week I could come for an onsite interview.

Setting aside the question of which job should I take for the moment (because I haven't been offered one yet), I'm assuming this will be a several hour thing.

Question: How do I handle this conflict between trying to be and appear dedicated to my current employer which I like but doesn't pay my bills and a potential employer that I'd probably like less but might pay me up to 20% to 25% more than what I'm "making" now?

A. Fake being sick or some other personal appointment. Normally this is what I have done in the past. Now I'm trying to be more honest and I like my current employment situation more.

B. Say to company B that I'm available but only in the evening and on weekends. Seems silly.

C. Be up front with my current company and say gently, "I'd like to stay, but this whole 'getting paid in stock' thing doesn't work for me because my ex-wife and the mortgage company don't take company shares, so I'm going to go interview at Evil Rich Company." Seems cruel to them and dangerous to me.

D. Say I have a personal appointment that requires several hours off. Truthful, but I bet my boss would see right through it. He'd probably be understanding but might wonder why I wasn't up front with him.

E. Some mixture or variation of the above.

F. Other?

2Cor521

 

[TooFrugal]

Can you take half a vacation day? If not I'd just go with the tried and true doctors appointment excuse or something similar.

 

[BunsGettingFirm]

I'd use a vacation day and just say you have things to do. You can't count on your next job before they make an offer, so it is best to be hush hush at your current place. Besides, once you let the secret out that you are interviewing, you won't be viewed as a dedicated employee even if you are. I'm assuming that you do have vacation days.

 

[Urchina]

Take vacation or personal leave. I would not recommend taking a sick day because you're not sick. Tell your boss that you have some personal business to attend to and would like to take a day off.

Or, to camouflage it more easily, arrange the interview at Evil Company X for a Friday or a Monday, then take a three-day-weekend. That's easy, everyone does that!

 

[bbbamI]

Tell them you need to take a day off. You shouldn't have to tell them why. If they ask you, tell them it's personal business. I assume they know you have children....let them draw their own conclusions.

 

[freebird5825]

A. Fake being sick or some other personal appointment. Normally this is what I have done in the past. Now I'm trying to be more honest and I like my current employment situation more.
Faking sick is too transparent, you'll be back the next day.

B. Say to company B that I'm available but only in the evening and on weekends. Seems silly.
Agreed - you need to be there exactly when they set the interview time.

C. Be up front with my current company and say gently, "I'd like to stay, but this whole 'getting paid in stock' thing doesn't work for me because my ex-wife and the mortgage company don't take company shares, so I'm going to go interview at Evil Rich Company." Seems cruel to them and dangerous to me.
Agreed - too dangerous if Company B offer doesn't happen.

BTW, I am just amazed at this method of payment for your services. Is that even legal?
I'm assuming you are under a court order for child support. If Company B comes through and you accept the offer, this would be my main reason given for quitting. As they say "Follow the money..."

D. Say I have a personal appointment that requires several hours off. Truthful, but I bet my boss would see right through it. He'd probably be understanding but might wonder why I wasn't up front with him.
Hmmmm...in my book it is really none of his business what you are doing if you have approved time off.

Good luck with your interview.

 

[Milton]

The main drawback is that the company is very cash flow constrained and I have therefore recently begun working for company stock. Kinda like a 100% ESPP, with the added bonus that the company is privately held and 100% illiquid.

That's horrible. Essentially you are working for free. And it seems entirely plausible that the "cash flow constrained" company - which cannot meet payroll - will shortly become insolvent, in which case you'll be out of a job like it or not.

No matter how cushy the current working arrangements, you would be wise to find alternative employment.

Tell them you need to take a day off. You shouldn't have to tell them why.

Check.

Or, to camouflage it more easily, arrange the interview at Evil Company X for a Friday or a Monday, then take a three-day-weekend. That's easy, everyone does that!

Excellent advice.

Be up front with my current company

No percentage in that strategy.

 

[target2019]

Everything about your circumstance throws up caution flags for me. It sounds like your employer is going out of business. Ditch the loyalty, take a day off, and go to the interview.

 

[tryan]

Take a vacation day. Don't tell your employer about the interview.

Being paid in company stock is essentially working for free. Your boss has to know the writing is on the walls ... mass exitous coming.

Time to cover your behind.

 

[freebird5825]

Just had a light bulb go off in my head...

F. Other?

AFTER you have your interview, if you have a really good rapport with the company owner (or manager to stay within chain of command), is there any chance they could lay you off so you could get UI benefits temporarily while they straighten out their cash flow problems?
You could cite any number of reasons. One that occurs to me is your child support obligations and the drain on your personal savings to meet that.
Just an idea...

 

[RonBoyd]

I am firmly in the "never, ever Lie" camp. The New York Times had a two parts series a couple weeks ago that may offer some guidance.

Seven Lies About Lying (Part 1)

Seven Lies About Lying (Part 2)

Whatever you decide, however, make sure YOU were considered most important. You don't get many shots at this type of thing in one lifetime. But I guess you already know that otherwise we wouldn't have this thread to dwell on.

 

[W2R]

If your present employer knew that you were looking for a job that would pay you actual money, maybe they would start doing the same in order to keep you.

Just a thought.

Even though you regard them as friends, it's a rough world out there and your business interactions must not be influenced by your supposed friendship. Don't let them take advantage of you.

 

[Lusitan]

D. Say I have a personal appointment that requires several hours off. Truthful, but I bet my boss would see right through it. He'd probably be understanding but might wonder why I wasn't up front with him.

I think this is the best option. I believe it's one of the understandings of our society that goes without saying -- nobody makes an announcement to their current employer about interviewing or looking for other work. (Likewise, no employer makes an announcement that they are "considering" laying you off ... they make the decision and then they tell you.)

They'd drop you in a heartbeat if it made business sense, and you'd be expected to understand that "it's nothing personal, it's just business". Run your career like a business.

 

[Sarah in SC]

What Lusitan said--run your career like a business.

Take the whole day off, say whatever you feel like saying about it--you have an appointment, period.

I would not work for company stock. Even if I liked them. Red flags as others have said.

Good luck--you need to get this new job--you won't be working forever, and you need to be saving up money now for retirement, not working for free to help out your friends.

 

[FUEGO]

I'd say I'm taking a half day off to take care of personal business. Make something up if pressed - sign some docs at the bank, drs appt, waiting on a/c repair guy at house, etc. White lies = no harm. Simply a cover story for your subterfuge. I had to take 3 days off for something similar recently (career switch related, licensing exam and interview), and just told them I'm taking 3 days off for vacation "to take care of some things around the house, spend some time with the kids, and maybe take a little trip to visit relatives". Factually accurate so not even a lie. Just a plausible cover story.

Edit to add: I don't see an issue with working for company stock if that could potentially pay off big time if the company was acquired. One of the few ways to make a ton of money relatively easily. Or get nothing.

 

[Walt34]

The main drawback is that the company is very cash flow constrained and I have therefore recently begun working for company stock. Kinda like a 100% ESPP, with the added bonus that the company is privately held and 100% illiquid.

This is nuts. I'd have been gone long ago. The grocery stores don't want dedication and good feelings, they want cold hard cash. In the meantime you're making the bet that the company stock will be worth something someday, living off your savings, and the company is essentially getting your work for free.

If they can't make payroll I think the bet on the company stock is at best overly optimistic.

 

[Texas Proud]

This is nuts. I'd have been gone long ago. The grocery stores don't want dedication and good feelings, they want cold hard cash. In the meantime you're making the bet that the company stock will be worth something someday, living off your savings, and the company is essentially getting your work for free.

If they can't make payroll I think the bet on the company stock is at best overly optimistic.

I am in this camp.... screw them... cash is what you get paid with... stock is a 'bonus'... unless you are independently rich and you KNOW that the stock is going to go public at a big increase... none of these seem to match your post...

Go for the interview... get another job... in fact, get another job even if the interview does not go well... your company is not going to make it if they can not pay any of their employees... so as someone else said, you are now (and have been) working for free...

 

[TromboneAl]

And don't forget to keep us posted.

 

[Rustward]

You have personal business to attend to. Don't fake anything. Don't tell the current employer you are interviewing elsewhere, though.

Do the best you can for yourself (and your children et al.), then do the best you can for your employer (whoever that may be).

Best of luck.

 

[quietman]

If you can afford it, one of the ways to get fabulously wealthy is to work for stock when a company is small before they make it big. OTOH most of them will NOT make it big, so you are risking working for free. In fact that's the most likely outcome, so you have to be able to afford the risk (gamble).

You haven't given any details of how much stock you are getting. Most little companies overvalue their stock by a factor of 10 or more and are stingy about how much stock they have employees buy. If you are getting tiny fractions of a percent of ownership, then even if this company does turnaround you will still own almost nothing. VCs taking the company to the next level will demand (and get) a big percentage of stock, further decreasing your stake.

If this is a founder or near founder deal (shares are pennies and you are getting significant percentages) you might entertain doing it for a while, but there has to be a clear route to profitability, to ability to cover their own true costs, to growth and a possibility to turn this ownership into real money. Everyone I know who went into a deal like this because company resources were tight has ended up with worthless stock. All those companies were in trouble and have employees work for stock didn't solve the fundamental problems. YMMV.

If you do decide to look for work elsewhere (which is a good way to hedge your bets if nothing else) taking the high road is always a good idea. Take an official vacation day for your business instead of a fake sick day. Don't tell your current employer you are interviewing. Even if they are not paying you (and they aren't) they will think you disloyal if they think you are interviewing. Confirming it will just put plans in motion to replace you at the earliest opportunity. Too much information can be self defeating.

 

[Sue J]

Yikes! Are they paying everyone with company stock or are some still getting paid with real money? Not a lot of people can live off their savings for a few months like you are doing.

Good luck with the interview. If you do get another job will you keep the stock that you've already been issued?

I also vote for a plausible reason to take a vacation day or personal day. I wouldn't lie about an illness, but if asked for the reason I'd be prepared to say something like a cable or utility company appointment or something related to the kids.

Or....since your "income" has disappeared you have to see your lawyer about changing your child support payments.

 

[Bestwifeever]

Just curious, what happens to your stock options if you leave?

 

[growing_older]

Hopefully this is actual shares of stock, not options.

 

[SecondCor521]

Thank you all for the replies and input.

First, it occurred to me this morning while I was mowing the lawn that I really have to attend the interview -- I may like the job at company B better, get a significant raise, and get paid in cash. Duh.

I also realized that as a newly minted employee at company A, I do have a use-it-or-lose-it personal holiday and my kids need to drop off their school supplies at school on Friday.

Finally, I tallied up all the votes here and the overwhelming choice was in favor of taking a personal day, and not being upfront.

Therefore, I've told company B that I'll be asking for this coming Friday off from work. I'll ask company A on Monday, but I'm 99 44/100% sure they'll let me take my personal day.

My boss certainly may "see through it", but knowing him he'll understand both why I'm interviewing and why I'm not telling him I'm interviewing. What has gotten me into this bind is telling company A why I've taken time off in the past -- "I'd like Thurs/Fri off to visit my sister", "Can I take a long lunch Thursday? I have a dentist appointment" -- in order to be as dedicated as I can be. So now when I ask for time off without an explanation it creates a question in their mind. Oh well, c'est la vie.

Now to clarify some things and answer some questions:

I'm not working at Company A for stock because I am friends with some of them. I'm working there because it has been my best employment option for the past year or so, and I really think they have potential. The fact that I am friends with some of them and really like working there, among other factors, just makes leaving harder, that's all.

@bbbamI, yes, they know I have children. Company A is only about 15 people, so we all generally know each other's family situations. They also know I have a mortgage and child support payments, I've said that several times. Without getting specific, I've also said that I can only do the 100% stock thing for a few months.

@freebird, yes, I think it's legal. Technically I can adjust my ESPP contribution any time, and just as technically they can lay me off for lack of cash flow. And yes, I'm under a court order for child support for the next eleven years or so until my youngest graduates from high school. Thanks for the good wishes! Oh, and I don't think company A would lay me off to get UI for a couple of different reasons: it would make their UI insurance bill go up, and they'd want me to close out the 12 different projects I am working on before moving to company B.

In general, a few facts about company A:
1. Their sales have grown by about 100% over the past two years.
2. Sales are on track to grow by about 50-75% this year. Could be another 100% year if certain events occur -- we have several large customers evaluating our technology for use, any one of which could double our sales/month.
3. The company has received ~$6M in angel investment from several very reputable angel investing consortiums in two rounds of funding.
4. I've worked at six different companies in at least ten different teams over the past fifteen years and this group of folks is probably tied for the best group of folks I've worked with.
5. Several others in the company are also working for stock.
6. The product is better and cheaper than the more-established competitive products.

@W2R, good advice, thank you. I think I may have been letting them somewhat take advantage of me because the job market here had been bad, and I really don't like looking for jobs.

My arrangement with company A: They're paying my taxes and health insurance for me and my kids. Because of the way I've structured things, I'm in reality getting maybe $500 a month in actual cash. The rest I get in preferred shares at a price that has been determined by an independent accounting firm. From what I can figure, if I work there for a few months for stock (I just started the stock deal on 8/1), I will perhaps own 1-2% of the company.

@T-Al, will do so on this thread.

@quietman (and others), I do realize this deal is unlikely to pay off. I think it could be worth the gamble.

@SueJ, my impression is that the lower-paid folks are getting paid in cash and the directors are taking a combination of stock and cash, depending on their own arrangements with the company. If I take the job with company B, I assume company A will either issue me the shares I have earned or perhaps less likely will just pay me in cash to avoid the paperwork of another shareholders. Thanks for the good wishes!

@GO/BWE, yes, these are actual shares, not options.

One other thing -- I alluded to this a little in my original post, but I don't really like company B. They treat their employees disrespectfully, they're in a commodity business which goes through boom/bust cycles which result in mass hirings and layoffs, and the product I would be working on does not provide the value to society that company A's product does. However, they do pay very well. Some of my angst is due to me wondering how much I really want to work for company B anyways. But then I realized I needed to at least have a conversation with them to find out more.

Thanks again to everyone. I'll post to this thread as things develop.

2Cor521

 

[SecondCor521]

Oh, and I did have a way out of the box idea -- if company B wants to hire me, see if I can work half time at company A and full time at company B, or the other way around. Could be an option, but I realize I'd have some selling and careful discussions to make that work.

At this point it's all preliminary anyway, but I like to think about these things as much ahead of time as possible. I'm not a quick-on-my-feet kind of guy.

2Cor521