Parents resent our FIRE plan

[bclover]

Wow I never realized how lucky to have the wonderful parents I had until I came here.

Parents don't want to help the kids. kids don't want to help the parents.

lovely family

 

[DINKFIRE]

Wow I never realized how lucky to have the wonderful parents I had until I came here.

Parents don't want to help the kids. kids don't want to help the parents.

lovely family

It is about how much should we plan to provide given our own ER timeline, and that parents are much more than well-off than the kids. We care about our parents hence the question.

 

[Another Reader]

Based on what the OP quoted from his MIL in post #110, It sounds like MIL thinks his plan depends on inheriting something from them. That bothered her in the same way her comments bother him. She's saying she and FIL did not accumulate the assets they did so the kids could quit work early and wait around to inherit their money to retire on.

Might be time for a pleasant conversation about early retirement and how it works. Without giving numbers, in the OP's shoes, I would explain that he and their DD have LBTM to accumulate more early on and that financial planning tools relying on history to estimate safe withdrawal rates show that he and their DD will have plenty to see them through life at an expense level that makes them happy. The OP and their DD do not expect or in any way rely on an inheritance to fund their expenses.

And then pour another martini.

 

[bclover]

It is about how much should we plan to provide given our own ER timeline, and that parents are much more than well-off than the kids. We care about our parents hence the question.

then why do you say they are resentful?? NOw I admit, I only read the first post but it doesn't sound like they are resentful. It sounds like you have issues.

How do you know they do stuff to "impress their friends"? what's wrong with how they live if they can afford it?

Did they ask you to "provide" any thing? maybe they aren't expecting to live longer than 20 years? if you are in your 40s I would say they are in their 60's maybe they don't think they will make it past 80.

You are making a lot of assumptions that may or may not come to pass.

 

[DINKFIRE]

Based on what the OP quoted from his MIL in post #110, It sounds like MIL thinks his plan depends on inheriting something from them. That bothered her in the same way her comments bother him. She's saying she and FIL did not accumulate the assets they did so the kids could quit work early and wait around to inherit their money to retire on.

Might be time for a pleasant conversation about early retirement and how it works. Without giving numbers, in the OP's shoes, I would explain that he and their DD have LBTM to accumulate more early on and that financial planning tools relying on history to estimate safe withdrawal rates show that he and their DD will have plenty to see them through life at an expense level that makes them happy. The OP and their DD do not expect or in any way rely on an inheritance to fund their expenses.

And then pour another martini.

we'll take your advice and pour another martini, but we've concluded with all the helpful comments, that we'll just drop this and continue on with our own plan. We've hit the common FIRE target a few years ago, but since we are going to be relying on ourselves for many decades, we decided to set the target higher, like 60 times our annual expenses. We are also holding off because the risk of a near term recession and uncertainty around ACA. We hope in a couple years there will be more certainties.

 

[bclover]

we'll take your advice and pour another martini, but we've concluded with all the helpful comments, that we'll just drop this and continue on with our own plan. We've hit the common FIRE target a few years ago, but since we are going to be relying on ourselves for many decade, we decided to set the target higher, like 60 times our annual expenses. We are also holding off because the risk of a near term recession and uncertainty around ACA. We hope in a couple years there will be more certainties.

Now this sounds like a much better plan than worrying about something that coulda, woulda, maybe, might not involve you.

Congratulations on hitting some milestones.

 

[DINKFIRE]

then why do you say they are resentful?? NOw I admit, I only read the first post but it doesn't sound like they are resentful. It sounds like you have issues.

How do you know they do stuff to "impress their friends"? what's wrong with how they live if they can afford it?

Did they ask you to "provide" any thing? maybe they aren't expecting to live longer than 20 years? if you are in your 40s I would say they are in their 60's maybe they don't think they will make it past 80.

You are making a lot of assumptions that may or may not come to pass.

I'm not gonna quote every single thing they said over the years but I'm describing what I sensed over those years. I'm also not going to disclose more personal details than necessary. There's no point of picking on my words, because I'm not gonna write a thesis to prove my point, I'm here to ask for advice and thankfully, I got plenty helps already.

 

[ExFlyBoy5]

It sounds like there's a lot of family dynamic most of us can only guess at going on here. You've gotten the general advice loud and clear, but I would think this needs a long chat first with your spouse, then, maybe with your inlaws.

I think you have made an excellent (probably the BEST) point. This isn't about the money. This isn't about "retirement". This is about parents wanting to continue being parents long after their job of parenting is OVER. We often hear that parents want their kids to be better off than they were, and this is true in many cases. BUT...in some cases, I don't think this is the case.

The dynamic of parent/child relationship should change as the child grows into an adult. The parent needs to STOP being the parent. This is not to say that they can't throw in their .02 about things they have experienced or dealt with..but STOP trying to control their kids. And so I think this is at play to an extent here. My MIL does this somewhat with two of her kids (not with DW, thankfully) and it's interesting to watch.

Bottom line here...you are all grown ass adults, so live your lives. Let them spend like mad, and retire if you like. If they don't like it, then let 'em deal with it.

 

[dtbach]

I think you have made an excellent (probably the BEST) point. This isn't about the money. This isn't about "retirement". This is about parents wanting to continue being parents long after their job of parenting is OVER. We often hear that parents want their kids to be better off than they were, and this is true in many cases. BUT...in some cases, I don't think this is the case.

The dynamic of parent/child relationship should change as the child grows into an adult. The parent needs to STOP being the parent. This is not to say that they can't throw in their .02 about things they have experienced or dealt with..but STOP trying to control their kids. And so I think this is at play to an extent here. My MIL does this somewhat with two of her kids (not with DW, thankfully) and it's interesting to watch.

Bottom line here...you are all grown ass adults, so live your lives. Let them spend like mad, and retire if you like. If they don't like it, then let 'em deal with it.

Thanks ExFlyboy5 for saying almost word for word what I would suggest the OP do. Live your life and let your PIL live theirs. I assume you are both on the same page with this.

 

[RetiredAt55.5]

That makes perfect sense to me. Why should somebody's parents deny themselves pleasure in retirement so their kids can retire decades before the parents were able to retire? I can't think of one good reason.

I agree.

But here's what I have an issue with. I'm guessing the OP is living pretty frugally to enable an early retirement, and once retired will continue that lifestyle. Nothing wrong with the parents blowing their dough as big spenders. However, fast forward 20 years if the parents needed financial help, that would really bother me. It just seems very unfair (to me), if that's how things ended up.

 

[Oz investor]

i have no idea ...

father died in 1969

mother died in 2007

and i didn't start my retirement planning until 2010

so without the theatrics on a seance ....

maybe they are proud and maybe not ( and since i was always the black sheep do i really care )

 

[ponyboy]

Here's the truth about human nature. When it comes to work culture, people cannot stand when someone else does something they havent done themselves.

Not sure when OP's parents retired, lets say 60. If OP wants to retire at 45...they have a 15 year head start to do whatever they feel like doing. Naturally, the parents hate that idea since they didnt choose to do that themselves. Maybe a jealous thing?

Its pretty obvious, the fact that they said they're going to spend every penny so don't count on an inheritance. They sound like petty children. They're just jealous, thats all. They cant help it.

 

[youbet]

After some thought about this, I've decided the parents aren't villains or financially stupid, at least based on what's been posted. They're just parents seeing the kids following a different path in life which is worrisome to them. And worry often leads to clumsy, not thought out communications and hurt feelings.

1. Kids have decided to RE and live with a smaller income than if they continued to work because the RE life style appeals to them and it's their choice.

2. Parents are concerned and don't want to give up any of their retirement lifestyle to possibly bail out the kids if the kids have miscalculated or aren't satisfied with the lifestyle after some time. So they let the kids know they're spending their significant stash to enjoy life without undue concern for leaving an inheritance.

3. The kids seem to know what they're doing regarding FIRE so the parents concerns are likely unfounded and over the next few years this should play out.

3. The parents seem to be in pretty good shape financially. They are in their 60's and their FA projects they might run out of money in 20 years if the current high level of spending continues. Doesn't sound like that much of a high risk situation to me since they'll be in their 80's if they do hit the bottom of the money bucket and they may have (no detail given by OP) ongoing sources of income such as SS, pension or annuity to help out if/after the portfolio is gone. Plus, since their current spending level includes a lot of discretionary spending, the budget could likely be painlessly tightened as they enter their late 70's and go into the slow-down 80's. I mean, what is the big worry? I wish my parents or the in laws would have been in that good a financial position late in life.

The issue seems to be hurt feelings and clumsy (at best) communication. OP is dramatically over-reacting. OP, realize your decision to FIRE and lead a lifestyle far different than your parents will take a while for them to be comfortable with. In the meantime, play your FIRE plans and new lifestyle in a low key manner. Don't expect them to enthusiastically embrace it any more than you embrace their current lifestyle and spending decisions.

You don't need or want an inheritance from them, so that's no issue. And as far as needing to support them in the distant future, what would you do differently if they started living a frugal lifestyle and their FA changed his tune to "they'll never run out of money." Likely nothing. So don't worry about it. It'll be years before it's known whether they have the life span and energy to continue this for 20 years (doubtful) and more than likely adjustments will be made along the way.

What you should do is be totally supportive and accepting of their lifestyle and spending decisions and let them know that. Cheer them on as they leave for one of their expensive international trips or have the house re-decorated yet again. And lead your own life as you wish reassuring them that you'll be fine and that FIRE suits you two well despite reduced spending levels. More than likely, they'll eventually become comfortable with that.

It'll work out. Don't make it any more of a drama than it has to be.

 

[jmp470]

From my experience, when I told my Parents I was going to fully retire at 43, I ended up supporting my mother in one of my houses. It became a nightmare. All she did was complain about everything. She made my life a living hell, to where I one day snapped and said **** it! Sorry for the language, but, I had enough of supporting her. Thank God, the house sold, she bought her own, and I can honestly say:

Mom, I will love you from a distance!

Over the course of 10 months the house and her sucked about $30K out of me. There was no end in site, until the house sold. It was like a dark cloud was lifted off of me and my life literally turned around the day after.

The worst part is (which is not all bad), I took a 18-24 month contract, which was to rebuild my lost wealth. But, I really enjoy the company I work for and I’m no longer an executive, I’m in a much lower job, and I have to say... I love it!!!!

I’m also paying down debt that I was willing to carry going into ER, before my parent situation happened.

I’m also saving for my BAB (which the wife approved of) Big *** Boat! But, that’s subjective. So it will be BAB to me, as I have no boat currently.

Best of luck with your decision, from my experience, I should have kept my mouth closed and not told anyone my plans.

 

[Retired Expat]

Hi I'm new to the forum and I hope to get some suggestions on our situation.

We are DINK couple in our early 40s with no kids. We both work full time and have been planning to retire in the near future. We have accumulated significant amount of investments (45 times of our annual spending), and we have no mortgage or other debt. We track every dollar we earn and spend for over a decade and live well below our means. We both have stressful jobs and we've been counting towards the day we leave the daily grind behind.

We have told our parents about our plan, and they laughed at us first, then recently they told us they are spending their money as fast as they can so we won't inhere anything from them if we retire early, which we are not planning to anyway. However, they also told us they are spending at least ten thousand dollars monthly on average, and their financial adviser projected them to run out of money in 20 years. they suggest that if we can't afford to spend ten thousand dollars a month in retirement, we are not ready to retire.

They travel many times a year domestically and internationally, often on luxury tours to exotic places with their much wealthier friends. They dine out more often than eating at home, go to all sorts of expensive events and parties, and spend frivolously on stuff they already have, just to impress their friends.


My concern is that they would overspend their wealth and will have to count on us to support them later on, and we will have to go back to work when we are in our 60s to do that. It just doesn't seem fair that we would live a frugal lifestyle and have to pay for their exorbitant lifestyle.

They have made it clear they are not watching their finances and want to spend it all. Perhaps beyond just telling them they will be on their own (which they will be) ask about their financial plans? Do they have long term care insurance, perhaps an annuity that pays until they die or a paid for whole life policy so the surviving spouse will be taken care of. Also have they maximized their Social Security?

Not your job to support them but perhaps to be the adult and make sure they are protecting themselves? There often comes a time when the children become the parents whether through physical or mental decline. Doing some pre-planning for that possibility/eventuality will save you all money and a mountain of grief and heartache in the future.

No idea of your parents financial status but sounds like they did okay. Time may come when selling their home will be required to support them but talk to estate lawyers and you may find that letting their estate sell it will be far more advantageous, even if you need to kick in to cover some of their expenses. For which you can be paid interest from the estate, (even if just the property) on the ongoing outlays you might have to make.

As to the 10k a month, I rather agree with that but we love to travel, have 2 homes, and while we don’t give a damn about showing off to our neighbors we are determined to enjoy the heck out of early retirement. Fully expect later retirement will be cheaper and less fun!

Best of luck

 

[gooddog]

I had a very toxic mother who did much worse financial stuff than what you have mentioned - a whole lot worse. One day it occurred to me that life would be better if I had nothing to do with her. Made a no contact policy, and life was great. If you have people acting like that in your life, even if it mom & dad - dump the relationship. You will be glad you did.

 

[HGTVFanatic]

Why not? Parents aren't automatically entitled to know everything about their adult kids lives and vice versa.

My thoughts exactly. It wouldn’t enter my mind to ask my kids any questions about their money situation because it’s none of my business. I think the OP is doing too much volunteering of information. But I echo everyone else’s opinion. Help your parents if they were never well off but no help if they are just blowing money right and left with no plan.

 

[HMMY]

My wonderful in-laws told their children they planned to spend it all and not to expect an inheritance while the children were in school. Neither child started working until they were 30. The children interpreted the message as support yourselves. Once the in-laws retired, they started traveling extensively and taking everyone on luxury family vacations. Although I enjoy the vacations, I was concerned they would run out of money and asked my husband to make sure they had enough. He spoke to them and it turns out they have an annuity and long term care policies that will cover them to the grave. It sounds like your in-laws also have enough, but if you're concerned, you may have your spouse speak to them to assure them that you have enough not to need an inheritance and ascertain they have enough for long term care. Or you could just let them live their life and live your own. I think your in-laws are concerned that you haven't saved enough. I don't think you need to save anything in case they blow it.

 

[HGTVFanatic]

I don't know and I doubt that they know, but they said their FA was fantastic and their portfolio grew a lot since the recession. Last I heard was about half a year ago, that their FA believed the market was due for correction so he/she sold substantial of their portfolio and held in cash await to jump back in at the right moment.

Oh my God! A financial “adviser “ that thinks he has a magic ball. What can go wrong?

 

[meridiver]

OP, it really does no good to worry about what may happen in the future. I used to worry about what would happen to my DM if my stepdad passed away since he pretty much handled everything financially and otherwise and I wasn't sure she could manage on her own. Well, low and behold, she passed away from cancer at age 70. Fifteen years later, stepdad is still going strong at age 88. My point is that you can cross that bridge (regarding parents potentially running out of money) when you get to it, but you should not let it significantly influence your plans right now.

 

[SlowlySaving]

Thank you for your responses so far. It seems easy to say that we are not responsible to support them later on, but it is much harder to do so, especially when have good relationship so far. I don't believe they deliberately trying to make us pay for their elder years, it's just that they are not happy we want to retire early, and not having grand children. It is hard to predict when life will throw a curve ball at you, so if they fall in hardship a decade down the road due to illness, even though they could have ride it out if they keep a healthy saving, we would not be in the right to not help them. To tell them that we won't support them financially will definitely damage our relationship.

I don't think you should tell them you won't support them in later years. That is kind of stooping down to their level especially if you are on good terms now. You just live your life the way you want to and let them live theirs. That is it!
Best of luck!

 

[FIREd]

I think that you should set clear boundaries with your parents and live the life that you want regardless of their judgement. I am much happier since I have taken similar steps with my own parents.

Ironically, your parent's financial advisor does not think that they can afford to spend $10K a month either.

 

[Arizona1]

It’s the same question all over again. The people who spend all through life run out and get supported through the taxes others continue to pay. If my family member was responsible with money I would help but if they were not they can apply to use the money I was required to pay to support irresponsible people like them.
Responsible people pay to police irresponsible people. For the last 10 years responsible people have been paying through low savings rates received on cd’s, for the people who gave or received a bad home loans.
I wouldn’t feel any responsibility whatsoever.

 

[MI-Roger]

Just make sure they never move to a "Familial Law" State. Of they do, the Courts may force you to cover the cost of their wastful spending.

 

[ncbill]

Just make sure they never move to a "Familial Law" State. Of they do, the Courts may force you to cover the cost of their wastful spending.

From discussions over on bogleheads I don't think any state has yet been successful in enforcing said laws.