Paying for College?

[Sparty]

Things Have Changed

When I attended college back when the earth was cooling it was actually possible to work during the summer and then part-time during the school year and cover tuition and room and board at a state university. In fact, tuition was much less than the cost of room and board. That's all changed and it would have been and continues to be impossible for them to ever earn enough money on their own to pay for school.

I don't regret for a second paying for either of my kids to attend a state university (although one has pretty much a free ride for tuition but has a year to go). My son who graduated a couple of years ago with an engineering degree was able to buy a house while many of his friends are struggling with student loans and will be for years.

 

[NW-Bound]

College Entrance Exams

Bonjour NW-Bound.

Like you, I am a product of the French education system. Did you go through the "Math Sup/Math Spé" prep classes? (For US readers who may not familiar be with the French system: in France, if one wants to get into an elite school ["grandes écoles", literally "great schools"], one has to go through a very, very tough entrance exam. And practically 100% of those who take the exam spend 2 grueling years preparing for it).

I also prefer the US university system, as it allows for more flexibility and creativity. But I think that the French middle school and high school systems -at least in the late 60s and early 70s- are more rigorous than their US counterparts today.

Hi,

I am sure you know more about the French education system than I do, because I had to look up "Math Sup/Math Spé" to see what it was about.

No, our HS and universities were all taught in our native language. Though foreign languages were taught in HS, the mastery-level of most students was not that great, though significantly better than most American students' knowledge of French, Spanish, or German. I happened to know French and English better than most because of my parents' insistence that we kids learned both for job opportunities. They sent me to language schools whenever I had some free time. They didn't believe in kids with too much free time.

As you piqued my curiosity about the French grandes écoles, I searched and found this link about these preparatory schools.

Wapedia - Wiki: Classe preparatoire aux grandes écoles

Apparently, gaining entrance to these grande écoles places one at the junior level already. After 3 years, the students are awarded a Master degree. So, the two years spent in Math Sup/Math Spé are after and beyond the 12th grade and counted as part of the college education.

It was not the case with our system. It still took us 4 years in our colleges to get a Bachelor degree. The preparatory classes were extra-curricular, and taken during the 12th grade. These simply reinforced what was in the normal course load and perhaps went a bit deeper.

The college entrance exams I took supposedly covered only the official 12th grade curriculum. However, these were not the same as the typical US classes. For example, the standard curriculum in Math covered

* Calculus, up to simple ordinary differential equations
* Analytic Geometry, mostly 2-D, plus some 3D conic sections
* Abstract Algebra, Introduction to Group, Field, Vector Space Theory

In Physics we learned Static Electricity, Magnetism, Optics, which was pretty much the same as freshman physics here in the US.

In Chemistry we learned Organic Chemistry (which I hated), as Inorganic Chemistry was covered in earlier grades.

So, generally the material was the same as freshman college classes here. Back then, a freshman in these tough colleges would be ready to tackle Linear Algebra, Real Analysis, Theory of Numbers, Analytic Geometry generalized to N dimensions, and more Physics but of the sophomore level here.

From reading the link I provided above, it appears that the French exams were more grueling than what I went through. Only one college exam I took included an oral exam, and it was only a formality; they already down selected from tens of thousands down to 50, and why would they throw any of those poor kids out? By the way, there was no college tuition, and the students even got a small stipend. Now, that was nice, and like the French system!

By the way, I remember being told that some of our college math course works were based on Rudin's textbooks, which I did not have. I always assumed that Rudin was French, but upon coming here, found out that he was Walter Rudin, of European origin but an American Mathematics Professor at the University of Wisconsin–Madison, and his textbooks were renown.

Back to the entrance exams, many countries still have rigorous college entrance exams for the tougher schools. It causes premature aging to the youngsters, both physically and mentally. This, I can attest to.

PS. FireDreamer stomped off a few days ago. He certainly could tell us more about the French education system. Now, I really wonder what is taught in HS there. Should I visit a HS there next time I am in France and ask to see their textbooks?

 

[bdk]

Now, I really wonder what is taught in HS there. Should I visit a HS there next time I am in France and ask to see their textbooks?

I also wonder how much it has changed from my days... One thing which I found rather astounding, from talking to a French high-school teacher who retired in the US: when grading a written paper (good old rédactions or dissertations), teachers are not to grade on poor grammar and spelling. So theoretically, you could have a good grade if you submitted a well-argued paper, even though your spelling was atrocious!
If you happen to read French internet discussion boards today, you'd probably cringe at the number of grammatical errors and spelling mistakes there. It's a far cry from our days (I'm 52), when a teacher would rake us over the coals for messing up the ending of a past participle...

 

[Mickslick]

We are doing a similar approach to the OP, we have put away enough in prepaid tuition so that each of our two high schoolers can obtain a college degree fully paid if they stay local. That is, they would need to do at least one year at our local community college and the remaining three at one of two very good local state university with a wide variety of degree options. If they want to go off and pay for increased tuition and / or room and board then they will have to come up with the difference.

I personally think it is crazy for parents to put themselves in debt or risk their retirement security by paying 30k a year for Sam or Sally to go to private school. I could kind of see it, if the private school was some kind of path to untold riches, but time after time I meet kids that dumped 30 -40k a year and came out with a RN degree or Business degree or Teaching degree etc... etc... from the private school and winds up with the same quality of job and pay as the kid who went to community college and a four year 4k state school.

 

[youbet]

I personally think it is crazy for parents to put themselves in debt or risk their retirement security by paying 30k a year for Sam or Sally to go to private school.

So you're saying that if parents have sound economic plans that don't put them in debt or risk their retirement security, then it's fine to send Sam or Sally to private school?

 

[tryan]

Heard from a friend "you can borrow for college; but you can't borrow for retirement".

We'll be taking advantage of the Sally Mae low interest loans.

 

[Mickslick]

So you're saying that if parents have sound economic plans that don't put them in debt or risk their retirement security, then it's fine to send Sam or Sally to private school?

Good question, I think it always a potential risky proposition to "indulge" a child just because one can afford it. And yes, college kids are still yet to be fully formed adults that can be ruined long term by not learning and experiencing self reliance and positive character development. So maybe it makes sense to pay for a full ride private school deal for a kid if you can afford it, maybe not - how's that for a wishy washy answer?

 

[LOL!]

Wife returns from a financial aid meeting at the local HS. She says the speaker was the financial aid officer from the local community college. He erroneously said that 529 plan and UGMA assets are not reported on the FAFSA. He was asked twice more about that and he maintained that 529 plan assets were not reportable on the FAFSA. A simple search says otherwise. If the financial aid officers don't know jack, who does? They should fire his ass.

 

[Nords]

If the financial aid officers don't know jack, who does? They should fire his ass.

Poor guy... he probably took the job to get the tuition discount for his kids...

 

[youbet]

Good question, I think it always a potential risky proposition to "indulge" a child just because one can afford it. And yes, college kids are still yet to be fully formed adults that can be ruined long term by not learning and experiencing self reliance and positive character development. So maybe it makes sense to pay for a full ride private school deal for a kid if you can afford it, maybe not - how's that for a wishy washy answer?

Your answer is surprising because you're chosing to "indulge" your kids. By picking up the bills for them to attend the local public institution, you're depriving them of the opportunity to earn their own way. They're likely to wind up being spoiled and not learn self reliance. My kids worked graveyard shift at the slaughter house, often 60 hrs per week, until they could afford to attend the local junior college and pay me room and board! Your kids will be "indulged" compared to mine!

Oh...... OK. Just kidding. But my point is that it's all relative. What you define as indulging and what I define as indulging and what Bill Gates defines as indulging are all going to be different things.

There are some very good reasons why attending a private school may be an advantage to some students (I was one) so if that's what your student needs, you figure out how to pay for it and on you go!

 

[LOL!]

I'm working on the FAFSA today. It's very simple if you have your 2009 tax-return (or a preliminary one), W2s, and a window showing your MSMoney/Quicken stuff sitting in front of you.

I heard this year would be simplified, so I don't know how complex it was in previous years.

It does not appear that you enter any number at all for your retirement assets (401(k), 403(b), IRAs, Roths). That means all Roth money that can be used for college is completely sheltered.

And the largest number you can enter for non-retirement "Net worth of current investments" is $999,999.00, so you don't have to report your 2nd, 3rd, ..., Nth millions.