Paying for College?

[Nords]

How about chosing their dinner entre' at the dorm cafeteria? Are they on their own for that?

Hey, Sam's following the Golden Rule-- he has the gold and the rule, and his kids are free to take the deal or pass on it.

What are they going to do, move out and start living their own lives?

 

[growing_older]

Honesty part of my reasoning is that I went for a semester on my Dad's dime and flunked out with a 0.0 grade average and new found love of beer and sitting around in my bathrobe.

I've let it be known elsewhere that I think very highly of a quality college education and strongly support helping my kids get as good an education as they can. My own experiences were that working distracted from the homework, but I got professional exposure that I used later in life more than the education itself. On the other hand, I had friends whose need to work to pay for school significantly hurt their grades, reduced their ability to take as many classes as they wanted and even kept them out of some specific very hard classes that required large time committments. I intend to provide as close to a fully paid education for my kids as I can, so they can do the best that they can with getting a good launch into adulthood.

But if any of them major in bathrobe and beer for a semester, that support will stop. I doubt it will come to that with my kids, but perhaps others might.

 

[growing_older]

I'm probably old fashioned. In my book, "steering" your children (in all facets of life, education included) is the utmost important job of a parent.

I had the unfortunate opportunities of seeing numerous parents letting their teenage kids making less (much less) optimal decisions without interfering. Those parents say that they RESPECT their kids' opinion/way of life. I say (to myself) that those parents are simply taking the easy way out.

There's a big difference between letting kids run wild or make harmful choices, and laying down the law to insure that they do what YOU want with their lives. In my opinion, neither is good parenting, but it's pretty difficult for an outsider to distinguish between "important guidance" and "controlling to the point of rebellion" as much as it is to distinguish between encouraging them to "find themselves" and "run wild"

I'm confident my choices are appropriate for my kids. I hope you do whatever is best for yours.

 

[flyfishnevada]

Clarification: They are allowed to study Liberal Art and even Psychology as a second major or as a minor. In fact I encourage them to do so. But the major has to be something practical, and the minimum GPA applies to the practical major. I couldn't care less if they fail miserably in their hobby field.

I am lucky, my kids so far have chosen practical professions (culinary and computer). Still I have told them that if they are undecided or want to do something a little less able to provide a solid income they should major in Business and minor in the other. You can fall back on a business degree and make a living and it will give you some insight into how to turn your less practical minor into a lucrative business.

 

[youbet]

But if any of them major in bathrobe and beer for a semester, that support will stop.

Bathrobe and beer? Sounds like early retirement!

 

[Alan]

My own experiences were that working distracted from the homework, but I got professional exposure that I used later in life more than the education itself. On the other hand, I had friends whose need to work to pay for school significantly hurt their grades, reduced their ability to take as many classes as they wanted and even kept them out of some specific very hard classes that required large time committments.

I agree that this was a concern of ours. DD's job was as a helper in the Computer Lab @$10/hr for 16 hrs a week and she said she was able to do her own homework most of the time, and DS's scholarships paid tuition and lodgings so the $500/month we sent him meant he didn't need work at all.

DW and myself were so fortunate when we went to College as we did what was called a "thin" sandwhich in that we had a company who we worked for when not in school. For the first 3 years we did one semester in college and the rest of the year working and on the 4th year we did 2 straight semesters and graduated then back to work. Not having to work during the school time was very important to us, and we admire folks who successfully manage to work and study at the same time.

 

[Independent]

This was back in 1997 and was not on the internet, Looking around I see the following on starting salaries for new graduates:


Most lucrative college majors - highest starting salaries - Jul. 24, 2009

This looks like a very good site to see not only salaries but also the types of jobs that degrees typically get you

Most Popular Jobs By Major

Thanks for the sources. I ran across the second one once and wished I had bookmarked it.

The thing that jumped out at me from your earlier post was the fact that the college supplied the data. I've seen lots of college advertising that sells the "get a great job" aspect of college, but in my experience colleges don't want to provide any real data. Your post made me think that maybe things had changed since my kids were in HS.

I think that any school making claims about good careers for its grads should put out the basic statistics. What percent of graduates get jobs that require their specific degree. What's the median income of those grads, and what's the median income of the grads who ended up with other jobs.

I think that would help parents and teens make realistic decisions about which majors to pick and how much debt to assume, but I've never seen this information in a college information packet.

 

[Alan]

Thanks for the sources. I ran across the second one once and wished I had bookmarked it.

The thing that jumped out at me from your earlier post was the fact that the college supplied the data. I've seen lots of college advertising that sells the "get a great job" aspect of college, but in my experience colleges don't want to provide any real data. Your post made me think that maybe things had changed since my kids were in HS.

I think that any school making claims about good careers for its grads should put out the basic statistics. What percent of graduates get jobs that require their specific degree. What's the median income of those grads, and what's the median income of the grads who ended up with other jobs.

I think that would help parents and teens make realistic decisions about which majors to pick and how much debt to assume, but I've never seen this information in a college information packet.

I tried Googling the actual university (LSU in Baton Rouge) but couldn't find anything. I recall that is was a collegue who obtained the information and we used it as part of our company's partnership with our adopted High School. Among the things the company does with their adopted High School is bring in groups of students for a few hours to show them the sorts of jobs they can get - finance, IT, engineering (Process, Electrical and Mechanical), chemists, lab technicians, process operators etc. All these jobs need a degree these days and the thrust of the day out is to encourage these kids to stick in at High School and get themselves to university and earn a degree.

I often gave presentations and tours of the IT and Process Control groups and always enjoyed the experience. I was VERY lucky at the same age to have had good advice by a teacher at school who also did career counselling plus our school took us on several trips to local industries to see the sorts of jobs available.

 

[Boxkicker]

Heh. We have these kinds of "wants vs actions" conversations in our house all the time.

You know how a steely-eyed command master chief would respond to those sentiments... which, of course, the board's profanity filter would prevent me from repeating here.

Oh, believe me...the salty Chief comes out all the time! I throw my 2 cents in almost daily. My fiance is getting onboard finally. We gave him the ultimatum the other day. Either pick up the grades or he is riding the bus to school instead of driving which is an embarrassment, so we shall see!

 

[scrinch]

That's two data points on the early end of the time scale. Do others have experiences (pro or con) to share on Junior spending the parent funds contributed to education?

For the first DD who graduated last June, I paid the bills for the first two years, and then just wrote her a check at the beginning of the school year for the last two years. It worked out pretty well, but she did need to borrow $500 near the end of her senior year. She had two part-time jobs to supplement what we gave her, but operating and maintaining her car cost more than she had budgeted and saved for. We are handling DD#2 who just started at UCLA the same way....paying the bills and giving her a quarterly allowance for the first two years, and then letting her handle the finances for the final two years. I figure that they've got enough on their minds with adjusting to being on their own, schoolwork, and part-time jobs, that I won't burden them with bill-paying at first. If a registration payment is missed, there is the risk of not getting the classes needed for their degree in this age of class cutbacks and tight university budgets. Let' minimize that risk. So far, so good.

 

[Independent]

I tried Googling the actual university (LSU in Baton Rouge) but couldn't find anything. I recall that is was a collegue who obtained the information and we used it as part of our company's partnership with our adopted High School. Among the things the company does with their adopted High School is bring in groups of students for a few hours to show them the sorts of jobs they can get - finance, IT, engineering (Process, Electrical and Mechanical), chemists, lab technicians, process operators etc. All these jobs need a degree these days and the thrust of the day out is to encourage these kids to stick in at High School and get themselves to university and earn a degree.

I often gave presentations and tours of the IT and Process Control groups and always enjoyed the experience. I was VERY lucky at the same age to have had good advice by a teacher at school who also did career counselling plus our school took us on several trips to local industries to see the sorts of jobs available.

Sounds like a neat program. I think that teenagers have trouble visualizing jobs that are "inside" companies (not face-to-face with consumers). It helps a lot if they can get inside and see all the real people there.

I notice that all the jobs you mentioned, and all the jobs on the top 15 list, require math. Lots of teenagers say "I hate math". Those kids should think very carefully about the job market before they commit to tens of thousands of dollars for college.

 

[Alan]

I notice that all the jobs you mentioned, and all the jobs on the top 15 list, require math. Lots of teenagers say "I hate math". Those kids should think very carefully about the job market before they commit to tens of thousands of dollars for college.

I guess that is because I work in the chemical industry and the site I'm at that does this "adopt a school" program is all about manufacturing. The lawyers, salesmen, customer service, HR folks etc are all in Corporate offices so we don't have many degree level jobs that don't need math, plus there has always been a shortage of scientific / engineering graduates hence the encouragement of the company to the students to go into these fields.

In 1971 when my teacher at school was advising me on careers I always remember him saying "Have you considered engineering? The economy rises and falls and jobs come and go, but in my experience there will always be a demand for good engineers and it is a well paid job" At that stage I could have gone in many directions. I was good at languages and loved them and had top grades in 'O-Level' French and German plus 2 years of Latin. In the UK in 1971, at 16 you choose 2 or 3 'A-Level' subjects which pretty well determines which courses you can apply for at college.

I was still living in rented terraced housing, sharing a bed with my brother, and we had no heating other than a single coal fire in one downstairs room, no car, no garden, no phone, and only a black and white TV so I was looking for money and financial security. I opted to take A-levels in Math, Physics and Chemistry. A much harder curriculum but I am so pleased that I went that route.

 

[molly]

I am grateful that we were able to provide the opportunity to our children. We paid for our kids college but it was a cooperative effort. They worked on/off campus and during summer breaks for spending money and books.

When each child began HS - we told them the amount of $ that were saved for their education. Our deal was - this is the amount of money. We told them that if they got a scholarship, the amount of money available would not be reduced. Any monies left when they graduated would be theirs to help them start the next phase of their life. All of this was subject to successfully carrying a full load of classes and a 4 year schedule unless there were mitigating circumstances such as class availability, etc.

Both children ended up with scholarship money to attend college. Child #1 used all her money and child #2 had enough left to help her make the transition into the working world.

Both children graduated. Best money that we ever spent. We would always have helped our kids through college to the best of our ability unless they were not yet "ready" or "able" for college or a trade school.

Education is the one thing that nobody can ever take from you.

 

[SomedaySoon]

Molly: Like you I paid for both my childrens tuition/room/board. Any money for books or pizza they had to earn themselves. I am extremely proud of both of them as they both graduated in the last two years and have successfull careers paying over $60K already. Boy I wish I made great money right of college, I guess I should have put my beer can down more often (but it was a great time of life!!)

I think one of the big issues to consider is the actual cost of college nowadays and the ability to pay back huge student loans. You may say "Well I paid my own way so they should pay theirs". The world is different now. Even if you don't want to contribute, the FAFSA forms you have to fill out to get any aid says the family can contribute so much. So if you have good income or assets, your child is not going to get any aid. How can they start their own FIRE if they begin their careers 50K-100K in debt.

 

[NW-Bound]

...we don't have many degree level jobs that don't need math...

In 1971 when my teacher at school was advising me on careers I always remember him saying "Have you considered engineering?"...

I was good at languages and loved them and had top grades in 'O-Level' French and German plus 2 years of Latin.

I was still living in rented terraced housing, sharing a bed with my brother, and we had no heating other than a single coal fire in one downstairs room, no car, no garden, no phone, and only a black and white TV so I was looking for money and financial security. I opted to take A-levels in Math, Physics and Chemistry. A much harder curriculum but I am so pleased that I went that route.

One reason engineering was not too tough for me was that I was good in math. Isn't engineering mostly applied math? I remember reading about Henry Ford and Thomas Edison at the age of 7, and they were my heroes, not some dumb ball players. Growing up, I always took things apart to see how they worked. However, I always wanted to be an EE, ever since I picked up a book showing how a radio with vacuum tubes worked, when I was 12. What I wanted as a teenager was not a fast car, but an oscilloscope (No, I did not get one). Abstract math is something else though, of much more elegance and beauty. I loved it, but knew it would be tough making a living. I never had to study that hard with math and physics.

You might wonder that if I was that good, why did I have problems getting into college as I posted in the "Why are people poor" thread, despite my parents' financial problems?

The truth is that I DID get admitted into two tough colleges. Admissions to these were by entrance exams. I was in the top 1% in my HS. That did not count. And SAT-equivalent national test scores were only used for prescreening, as they could not administer the entrance exams to every kid who wanted in. Yes, you could tell that it was not in the US. Each college also had its their own requirements and tests. There was a quota of how many would get admitted each year. Back then, a department like EE would admit 50 students and no more.

Coming here as an immigrant, I had to start over. I had one summer to beef up my English to pass TOEFL (Test of English as a Foreign Language) in order to get admitted to the nearest state U. Right! English is not my mother tongue. Nor is French. But I started to learn French when I was 8, and English when I was 12. My parents didn't like me sitting around idling during the summers, so sent me off to take language classes.

I was elated that after 4 months in the US, I passed TOEFL with a grade high enough to qualify for graduate level admission, though I only asked to be let in as a freshman. Talk about lucky or what? The money my parents spent on me paid off. It was a good thing that TOEFL was a reading and comprehension test, and did not address verbal communication skills. I would fail badly otherwise, as I learned mostly by reading and did not speak as well. It wasn't until I started working that I learned the swear and curse words.

I did more than other kids, but was it a big deal? When kids are not distracted by sports, TV, and computer games, they can do a lot. And I was forced to, in order to survive.

So, you are going to wonder what my mother tongue is. Is it Korean? Tagalog? Ukrainian? Thai? Tahitian? Farsi? Heh heh heh...

Well, I am still fluent in it, having been to college in my native country. But do you really have the "need to know", as they say in the DoD parlance?

 

[Alan]

Great story NW-Bound, you did well.

What is your mother tounge? You gotta tell us now.....

 

[Sam]

I remember reading about Henry Ford and Thomas Edison at the age of 7,

....

Each college also had its their own requirements and tests. There was a quota of how many would get admitted each year. Back then, a department like EE would admit 50 students and no more.

....

So, you are going to wonder what my mother tongue is. Is it Korean? Tagalog? Ukrainian? Thai? Tahitian? Farsi? Heh heh heh...

Wow! You're the first one I hear of that read and liked Henry Ford and Thomas Edison at age 7!!! I would not be surprised if you finished high school at age 14 and college at 17.

As far as your native tongue is concerned, I couldn't guess. The description you gave on college entrance is pretty much the norm in most countries. College entrance in the USA, in my view, is the exception.

 

[kumquat]

I think one of the big issues to consider is the actual cost of college nowadays and the ability to pay back huge student loans. You may say "Well I paid my own way so they should pay theirs". The world is different now.

You nailed it. Ding, ding, ding.

When I finished HS in 1967, you could make enough in a month to pay your year's tuition. Another month did books & beer. Today, a 4 month summer job might cover tuition & books, no beer.

We paid for our kids' (and at an out of town school) tuition, books and housing. Beer was on them. They both worked summers & PT. DD actually worked full time one year while attending full time.

We bought a condo where they went and (after DD living there for 5 years post grad) we sold it for a $100K profit. That was blind luck, BTW. In the end, neither we nor the kids paid much, better than a scholarship. Consider it, YMMV.

 

[tryan]

Plan A is student loans and some assistance from us (that's what dad did for 5 kids)

Plan B is get some meaningless jjj*b at the state U. (since empoyees get to send thier kids for FREE!)

Plan C is inheritance $$ (this would be necessary if Jr has his sites set some pricey private school).

 

[NW-Bound]

Wow! You're the first one I hear of that read and liked Henry Ford and Thomas Edison at age 7!!! I would not be surprised if you finished high school at age 14 and college at 17.

No, I was no such prodigy. I was just a nerdy kid, who simply wanted to grow up to be a geeky engineer, which I did. What I read was an simply an account of these great inventors in an adolescent book. It was a great motivator for me. I remember now that the book also described the Wright Brothers.

There was no mechanism for a kid to jump a class back then, or I ever heard of one. There were no placement tests whatsoever. In secondary high schools, students were allowed some choices, some leaning more towards math/physics, others to biology, or literature and languages. There were some elective course works somewhat similar to what Alan described. There was not a bewildering choice of classes like in the US. Kids were thrown into classrooms according to their age, and that was that. Some struggled to stay afloat. Others got bored with the curriculum and sneaked Les Misérables into class to read.

Thinking back, there was no way I could pass high school then at 14. What would a nerdy scrawny kid know about philosophy, literature, world history, or such "grown up" subjects taught to 17-yr olds?

I spent a lot of time at 15 reading and rereading a reference book (in French of course) about the theory of the transistor. I remember that I could not understand the use of complex numbers in h-parameter network formulas. Of course not, as that is usually taught in a junior-level college class.

To study for college entrance exams, most kids took additional preparatory classes offered by private schools, outside of their normal schools. Yes, this is still the way it is done in many countries. I remember that some of the math materials (calculus and physics) we used to study were past entrance exams given by top French Universities like École Polytechnique or École Normale Supérieure.

I slowly got to like the US system better. A student is given so many chances to try and try again. The entry barrier seems lower, but in the end, the real test is when one enters the work force, and then it continues through his life. The old system I grew up in was too rigid, and in many ways placed too much emphasis on rote learning.

What is your mother tongue? You gotta tell us now.....

Thanks. But I have spilled more "beans" than I ever thought I should. Please give me some time.

By the way, I bragged earlier about being able to remember that I read The Spy Who Came in from the Cold at a young age, not really understanding it, but then remembering having read it much later when I reread it. I first read it as a translation in my native language, then ran across it again when I came here. I did not learn English until 12. However, I did read Tintin and various Franco-Belgian comics in French much earlier. It was part of the language education my parents wanted to give me.

 

[haha]

How can they start their own FIRE if they begin their careers 50K-100K in debt.

The same way anyone else who is not subsidized by his parents does. If he goes to university, he chooses a field of study that can amortize that loan. If he goes to trade school, he shops wisely for his trade, and gets training that will get a union stamp of approval in a field likely to remain in high demand.

In general an auto mechanic buys his tools. If a career won't amortize the training, the young person should get a different career or a cheaper route to the original one.

Who but guilt ridden parents would pay these atrocious private school or out state tuitions? A little market discipline might go a long way toward bringing higher education back to earth.

Ha

 

[youbet]

Who but guilt ridden parents would pay these atrocious private school or out state tuitions? A little market discipline might go a long way toward bringing higher education back to earth.

Ha

Ouch! Gee Ha, DW and I always felt good about helping DS through an out of state school he very much wanted to attend. It was a bit of a sacrifice. We paid the tuition, room and board. He co-op'd and used that income to pay for books and personal expenses. He met his DW (chem eng and mom of our 3 grand kids) there and so far has had a successful/enjoyable career as a mech eng. We thought this was all good. Do we have to be guilt ridden? That sounds like a bummer. Wish you hadn't told us since in this case ignorance was bliss.

 

[haha]

Ouch! Gee Ha, DW and I always felt good about helping DS through an out of state school he very much wanted to attend. It was a bit of a sacrifice. We paid the tuition, room and board. He co-op'd and used that income to pay for books and personal expenses. He met his DW (chem eng and mom of our 3 grand kids) there and so far has had a successful/enjoyable career as a mech eng. We thought this was all good. Do we have to be guilt ridden? That sounds like a bummer. Wish you hadn't told us since in this case ignorance was bliss.

I apologize. I was both incorrect and wrong to say that. Some parents are acting out of guilt, or a desire for ongoing control. I am too observant not to realize that. But clearly many are acting from much more altruistic motives also. There are actually many reasons why parents might pay for their children's education. It is complex in many ways.

It does surprise me that so many who are very strict with their own spending are so generous with their kids when it comes to university, though not necessarily as applied to other things. And I do feel that preparation for a career should be self-amortizing, but as long as the beneficiaries are as frugal as the parents have been it should just pass forward over time.

If I had $10mm, I would still be careful about underwriting school. I have seen so many family conflicts that to me at least appear to come from a child wanting to study whatever he or she wants, and the parent who is laying out $20,000 to $60,000 per year wanting the child to study what the parent wants. The parents who are after all paying the bills feel pretty strongly as of course so does the student.

I also read many of the posts, such as those from the million dollar thread, and I can't help but feel that for many at least paying for university educations for several children might not be the safest use of funds.

Ha

 

[youbet]

I apologize.

Whoa......... I forgot to put those winkie - winkie dealies at the end of my post. NO apology necessary. I thought you knew my strange humor by now...... I didn't really think you meant all parents that sent their kids to out of state or private schools were guilt ridden.

Actually your observations are right on. Although, as you say, probably apply to many, not all, parents.

DW and I were products of the Chicago Public School system. No, not the modern "charter schools" and all that crap system of today. Rather the system of the 60's where I majored in rolling a pack of Lucky Strikes up in my tee shirt sleeve......... And we were first generation college grads. (Actually, first generation high school grads as well.) We both worked lots and lots of hours to get through college, DW at some really crappy cafeteria jobs. We were both kind of surprised when we graduated on time and wound up with degrees.

So when DS did a little better with the grades and test scores and was interested in engineering, we let him pick the school (after campus visits, etc.) which was Purdue. He wanted to co-op (true co-op, not intern or summer job) which allowed him to cover all personal expenses and buy a car. We picked up the rest which, at the time, was affordable out of current income. He did have a National Merit schlorship which helped too. I think it was $2k/yr.

As I said, so far, so good. Paying his way didn't turn him into a lazy bum, ungrateful spoiled brat or anything similar. The co-op experience was good for him too. If DW and/or I had known more about college/university shopping and technical careers at the time, we'd probably have found a cheaper way for him to get where he wanted to go. But we didn't, so off he went to an out of state school with mom and dad footing the bulk of the bill.

There was no compelling guilt influencing us then and we really don't feel guilty about it now. (And, again, I was completely kidding saying we did feel guilty after you brought it up! )

But, I could give you examples of friends/relatives who spent money they couldn't afford on childrens' educations that weren't realistically planned, didn't work out and the money was basically flushed. I'll spare you the long, sad stories but just say they back up your points.

 

[bdk]

Thanks. But I have spilled more "beans" than I ever thought I should. Please give me some time.

Bonjour NW-Bound.

Like you, I am a product of the French education system. Did you go through the "Math Sup/Math Spé" prep classes? (For US readers who may not familiar be with the French system: in France, if one wants to get into an elite school ["grandes écoles", literally "great schools"], one has to go through a very, very tough entrance exam. And practically 100% of those who take the exam spend 2 grueling years preparing for it).

I also prefer the US university system, as it allows for more flexibility and creativity. But I think that the French middle school and high school systems -at least in the late 60s and early 70s- are more rigorous than their US counterparts today.