Planning for Mom's next step.

[Tailgate]

DM is 87, great health and now ready to move to independent living facility and a 1 bedroom that will cost $3,200 a month (lease). Her income is from SS and pension and small investment account. It looks like her expenses will be about $1,000 over that monthly income.

The plan is to bank the proceeds from the sale of her house to fund the monthly shortfall until it is depleted, which should be a little over 3 years.

Then, she has about 40k in long term bonds to sell. These are generating about $225 a month in income. Selling these off in 3 years will fund an additional 3 years or so of expenses and will keep her comfortable.

That puts her at 93 years old. If she still is able to be in Independent Living, we can downsize her or I can certainly help (I can step in anytime and help, but she looks to be in ok shape unless there is a medical event triggering AL or LTC).

Is there anything I need to know or is anything missing in my thinking?

Here is an earlier thread where I inquired about AL, but I don't see her needing that for awhile and that time comes, all bets are off anyway.

 

[braumeister]

Is she going to a continuing care place, where she can stay with increasing support?

 

[latexman]

Look for a nice place that is Medicare qualified. Then, if in the future she needs services provided by Medicare, it's built in.

 

[Tailgate]

Is she going to a continuing care place, where she can stay with increasing support?

Yes...both AL and Memory Care in separate areas from the apartments.

 

[Teacher Terry]

Since she is in great health why not just move her into a regular senior apartment which would be so much cheaper. She may never need any type of care. Medicare is not going to pay for care later. If she needs nursing home care she will have to deplete her assets and then Medicaid takes over. Only 20% of people ever go to NH's.

 

[Tailgate]

Since she is in great health why not just move her into a regular senior apartment which would be so much cheaper. She may never need any type of care. Medicare is not going to pay for care later. If she needs nursing home care she will have to deplete her assets and then Medicaid takes over. Only 20% of people ever go to NH's.

She is moving to a senior apartment.. independent living, but with zero maintenance, meals (still has a full kitchen), cleaning, transportation, emergency call system, access to nursing staff if needed. Also social activities including daily 'happy hour' at the in house bar, free continental breakfast daily, educational, fitness, hair salon, pharmacy...etc.... pretty neat place to be independent.
I'm hoping we'll avoid nursing care..depressing places.

 

[Newventurer]

Having gone through this last year, I look back now and see how blessed we were that my mom's transition went as well as it did. Her husband, her caregiver, died in an auto wreck. We found out her memory issues were worse than we thought and she was not able to stay in her home, even though some well meaning (?) friends encouraged her to do so, not knowing the extent of her condition. We transitioned her into a local (very important to her) Assisted Living facility. We had her shop for new furniture for her new space which helped make it special to her. The facility allowed us to host an ice cream social on the weekend she moved in as an ice breaker for her. My sister and I know all the staff and are very involved in her care. There is no question that when the staff knows they have an involved family they pay attention to the details. We visit often and always engage the staff in conversation about mom and the other resident s who we have come to know well as we share meals with them when we visit. Her friends still stop by and visit, as well as local school children (she loves this) and her church family.

This facilities residents have become her new family and they interact daily in exercising, meals, a chair on the patio, walks, activities planned daily.

I have heard nightmares from others making this transition which makes us all the more appreciative of our situation. I think our mom just made the decision that she was going to make the best of it and having some familiar faces, with similar experiences, and familiar sourroundings around her eased the transition.

Best of luck for a smooth transition

 

[Teacher Terry]

A built in social life which can be great when you have outlived most of your friends. Both my Mom and FIL outlived their friends. We have a couple of those fancy places like you describe in our town and from the commercials they look very nice. Since she can go 6 years the chances that she will outlive her $ is probably slim. Both of my Dad's parents simply just died of old age in their early 90's. There was nothing wrong with them, on no meds, etc. Actually a good way to go)

 

[Pilot2013]

So, to be clear, as she has increasing requirements in this home and moves from Independent Care, to Assisted Living Care, and then Skilled Nursing Care, it's all going to be ~3200/month?

 

[Tailgate]

So, to be clear, as she has increasing requirements in this home and moves from Independent Care, to Assisted Living Care, and then Skilled Nursing Care, it's all going to be ~3200/month?

That would be nice (I'd move there tomorrow).. but no...only the apartment/independent living is currently at that rate. There are 120 apts ranging from studios to 2 bedroom. Her's would be a 1 bedroom with 590 square feet.

AL and NH care are different platforms within the same managed community and come with substantially increased expenses. If my DM situation heads in those directions she will be able to tap into her LTC policy and, hopefully Military Survivor benefits of Aid and Attendance plus our help if necessary. Medicaid is an option when her assets have depleted.

I hope she's in relatively good shape even without our help at this point. That is what I'm asking the group about today..to see if I'm missing anything.

A medical event or diagnosis might change all of that overnight. Such is life.

 

[rothlev]

I've gone thru something similar with my mother. It sounds like a good place with a high quality of life and a reasonable fee. If she ever runs out of funds veteran's funding may kick in, medicaid may kick in and if the facility does not take medicaid at that point she would need to move. Some , actually very few, assisted living facilities do take medicaid.
You may want to research that. I tried to get my mother into a really top notch assisted living that took medicaid and they turned her down as too medically complex.
Those homes want you to have enough money to cover at least a few years. It sounds like you have a fine plan to me.

 

[ivinsfan]

You've covered what you can and have a plan.Speaking as someone who lost her Mom at 70, I'd put the rest of my energy into the here and now and enjoy your good fortune at having a functioning Mother at the ripe age of 87.Enjoy her and trust yourself that you will do what you can if/when she needs you.

 

[Bamaman]

We had my mother in one of the new generation assisted living/nursing homes. It cost $177K "security deposit" to get her in the door (cash), and after her death we got back 90% of that. She started in an apartment for $2050 per month including 20 meals monthly in the nicest restaurant in the city with a Dutch chef. Everything worked well until we had to bring in 24 hour care givers who basically sat and watched television for $12 per hour.

My mother went thru $110K per year and she was down to her last $5K when she passed. God had a plan for her all along. But she had a wonderful life for 91 years including the last 16 years that she was living with a very bad heart. There was no one that enjoyed parties more than she, and where she lived had a big social program.

FYI: In the Deep South, we do have perfectly nice assisted living facilities for about $2050 per month including 3 meals. My aunt was in one, and we paid another $500 per month to have her meds dispensed. She later moved to full nursing home care for about 3 years until she passed at age 99 and 8 months.

 

[Moemg]

My Mother moved into an independent living facility with the option for assisted living and nursing care when she was 95. She really liked it . She loved the social atmosphere and made a lot of friends . When she broke her shoulder she was able to stay in the nursing area for rehab . It was covered by her insurance . She never went to assisted living though she probably should have the last year . She was admitted to the hospital for severe leg pain at 99 and never recovered so she spent two weeks in the nursing area before her death .We were so happy to have her taken care of in her last years and since she had a one bedroom with a pull out coach we were able to visit regularly . I hope your Mother is very happy in her new apartment.

 

[Walt34]

AL and NH care are different platforms within the same managed community and come with substantially increased expenses. If my DM situation heads in those directions she will be able to tap into her LTC policy and, hopefully Military Survivor benefits of Aid and Attendance plus our help if necessary. Medicaid is an option when her assets have depleted.

If all of her assets are depleted will she be able to stay or do they kick her to the curb, i.e., send her to a Medicaid-only facility?

My mother and FIL both stayed at CCRCs that had the policy that if you had the assets to get in, you could stay even if all assets were later depleted. Of course you couldn't give it way, buy a Bentley, or the like. The facility would then accept Medicaid-only as payment and eat the loss.

 

[Koolau]

According to this table Life Expectancy Tables - Actuarial Life Tables | Life Expectancy Calculator: DM has about a 50:50 chance of living beyond 93. In addition to the roughly $1000/month current short fall, you may need to consider the inflation involved with her situation (typically significantly higher for senior "facilities" than for the general population.) I suppose my only suggestion would be to consider something with a lower monthly cost for now. Hopefully something is available with, say 85% of the "value" at say 60% the cost. Barring that, let your mom enjoy her life at the place you have chosen and figure out what to do if the time comes you need to kick in to maintain her lifestyle. Best of luck! These are not easy decisions and the costs are not insignificant.

 

[Tailgate]

DM is 87, great health and now ready to move to independent living facility and a 1 bedroom that will cost $3,200 a month (lease). Her income is from SS and pension and small investment account. It looks like her expenses will be about $1,000 over that monthly income.

The plan is to bank the proceeds from the sale of her house to fund the monthly shortfall until it is depleted, which should be a little over 3 years.

Then, she has about 40k in long term bonds to sell. These are generating about $225 a month in income. Selling these off in 3 years will fund an additional 3 years or so of expenses and will keep her comfortable.

That puts her at 93 years old. If she still is able to be in Independent Living, we can downsize her or I can certainly help (I can step in anytime and help, but she looks to be in ok shape unless there is a medical event triggering AL or LTC).

Is there anything I need to know or is anything missing in my thinking?

Here is an earlier thread where I inquired about AL, but I don't see her needing that for awhile and that time comes, all bets are off anyway.

UPDATE.... DM sees her new digs for 1st time today. Planned move is mid Oct. She is very excited for her new adventure. I think she will absolutely love it and thrive in the new social scene.

I need some additional advice regarding her credit card debt . She has 12k in cc debt (don't ask me how, but I suspect it has everything to do with my worthless nephew who lives next door to her).

My original plan was to pay off the debt with proceeds from the sale of her home, but now think it better to continue to cut up the card and continue to pay a little more than minimum due monthly. That will free up 12k in cash to fund the shortfall between her income and expenses. Probably an additional years worth of independent living expenses. I would be kicking the cc debt can down the road. At 87, that road is probably a few years away. So the plan to fund monthly shortfall of about $1,000 would be:

1. from cash until it is mostly depleted
2. then from sale of 40k bonds
3. that get her to medicaid status in 5-6 years

Any advice, experience or expertise would be appreciated...

 

[pacergal]

I would make sure "worthless nephew" does not have another access to her card or finances. Several years ago, we had to help MIL go into nursing facility and take over her finances. Discovered BIL had a book of checks he had helped himself to, and wrote generous checks to himself . It caused much angst with MIL, as he was a favorite child, but we closed the account and opened a new one.(only after threats to BIL of police report for forgery). She barely had 2 nickels to rub together herself, (but had inherited some from her Mom the year before) and he had taken her account down several thousand dollars.

 

[ivinsfan]

does she use the card or can you get her another one? Do you have any way to check on the account statements and see what was purchased for the 12K.Perhaps she is forgetting to pay the bill and wracking up huge interest and penalty fees.

It could actually be your Mom's spending from getting scammed or who know's what. Maybe Home Shopping Network.If your nephew does have a pattern of getting things from her he's not just going to go away. perhaps you can find her card with a good balance transfer offer and save her some interest. and the nephew wouldn't have access to the account details.

 

[MBAustin]

Second the recommendation to review her statements and figure out what caused all of the charges.

Does she really need the card? If not, you might call the credit card company to see if they can close off the account to new charges and then you can pay it down as you see fit. If she needs it, ask the bank for a new account number. If it was nephew, then she should be OK. If it was her getting scammed, you might suggest that you keep the new card and decide on purchases together. If she at least can get some concept that her financial situation is precarious, it might help.

Good luck with the move!

 

[spncity]

Some people with imperceptible cognitive decline order things from TV - like $99 bottles of pills promising the fountain of youth - that turn out to be magnesium you can get for five or ten bucks.

There are cards you can 'load' with limited bucks.

 

[MichaelB]

UPDATE.... DM sees her new digs for 1st time today. Planned move is mid Oct. She is very excited for her new adventure. I think she will absolutely love it and thrive in the new social scene.

I need some additional advice regarding her credit card debt . She has 12k in cc debt (don't ask me how, but I suspect it has everything to do with my worthless nephew who lives next door to her).

My original plan was to pay off the debt with proceeds from the sale of her home, but now think it better to continue to cut up the card and continue to pay a little more than minimum due monthly. That will free up 12k in cash to fund the shortfall between her income and expenses. Probably an additional years worth of independent living expenses. I would be kicking the cc debt can down the road. At 87, that road is probably a few years away. So the plan to fund monthly shortfall of about $1,000 would be:

1. from cash until it is mostly depleted
2. then from sale of 40k bonds
3. that get her to medicaid status in 5-6 years

Any advice, experience or expertise would be appreciated...

Thanks for the update. It's not clear what you plan to gain by paying the minimum on the credit card. That will result in substantial interest costs. Do you feel her assets will increase in value more than the CC interest rate?

Do you have power of attorney for her? I don't recall if that was mentioned in the earlier threads.

 

[EastWest Gal]

Do you have POA? If so, exercise it. Register the POA with the county clerk then ask for multiple certified copies.

Close the account, cut up the card. Do it as POA. But before you close it, obtain a transaction report for as far back as you need.

If the worthless nephew is using her card number ordering crap online, then consider threatening to take him to court. Also credit card fraud is a crime and he could face fines and jail time. If that is the case, you have decisions to make what to do.

If there are fraudulent charges, the credit card company should be responsible for almost all of it. Let them go after the nephew.

It could be that she simply has failed to pay the bill for awhile, however. Checking the records will be very helpful.

My mindset is that it p....es me off when people rip off their relatives, especially elderly ones. My BIL emptied his mom's bank account for drugs and alcohol while he was supposed to be caring for her as she was dying of cancer. DH and I visited and took care of her as best as we could, but with a toddler and full time work, it was very difficult. In my visits, I did more real care than the three brothers combined, DH included.
Audgyuxthef
The result was that he forfeited any of the small inheritance he could have received, and forever ruined his relationship with his entire family. Neither brother speaks to him, 20 years later.


Sent from my iPhone using Early Retirement Forum

 

[Bamaman]

I agree about investigating where the charges came from and if there's any fraud involved. The credit card could have been "stolen" and she not had enough judgement to close the account.

I wouldn't hesitate to file a fraud claim with a credit card company--especially on a relative that's taken advantage of a senior citizen that may be somewhat helpless in fiscal matters.

 

[Walt34]

I need some additional advice regarding her credit card debt . She has 12k in cc debt (don't ask me how, but I suspect it has everything to do with my worthless nephew who lives next door to her).

I used to do fraud investigation, including stolen/forged credit cards. First, contact the cc company and get back statements to give you an idea of what items were purchased. Does she still have physical possession of the credit card? If not, contact the cc company and let them know so they can close that one and send another, or simply close the card to new charges.

Do you have power of attorney? If not, you're probably going to need it so try to get that taken care of.

Legally, even if the charges were forged she is still on the hook for anything more than 60 days old. But if you come to find out that the nephew took the card, went shopping, and then returned it he may be eligible for criminal forgery charges. This may entice him to pay up. If not you have a hard family decision to make. I've seen it go both ways, some will press charges, some won't. More often than not the judge will make restitution part of the sentence. If you even suspect forgery make a police report of it now. Depending on how well staffed and trained they are they are they should be able to follow up on this. Where I worked stuff like that was followed up routinely.

Time is of the essence here because if there are recent forged charges the 60-day clock is ticking and security camera video is not kept forever. Most businesses do not keep it for more than a few months.

However, if he simply convinced her to buy stuff for him then she is obligated to pay the bill.