Power of attorney not accepted

[Texas Proud]

Is this a "durable" power of attorney? I don't know the specific law for your state but if this is not a durable power of attorney then it may be invalid if your mother no longer has capacity.

Yes it is.... good until she dies.. I then become executor...

 

[Free]

Had this experience recently. DM set my sister and I up as DPAs several years ago. DM is now on hospice in an assisted living facility. Her U.S. Savings bonds had almost all matured , so from that perspective it made sense to cash them and reinvest.

She and my DF had put a fairly sizable amount in these bonds in the 80's (matured value over $100,000). Because of tax issues with accrued interest we cashed some in late 2017 and the remainder in early 2018.

Her primary banking/savings is with two credit unions who don't deal in savings bonds. A WF branch bank is across the street from her residence, so I tried there, and they agreed to cash them if we opened an account.

I was also unable to cash the bonds without going through the attorneys at WF even with the DPA and it would have involved delays and possibly other legal/paperwork issues. So I brought my disabled DM into the bank and she signed the bonds and put me on as joint to the account. DM has slight dementia, but understood the need to reinvest. It worked out for us and since she has a large tax write off for her assisted living (for two tax years), her tax liability on the interest is largely nullified.

Had a similar issue with her RR Retirement and the IRS. Neither would recognize the DPA, so DM had to sign their forms to allow my sister and I to conduct business on DM's behalf. Her other investments/ interests had no problem recognizing the DPA.

FYI, I also found out that there is an involved process you have to go though with the IRS once a person dies to handle the estate as an executor. In dealing with the IRS/DPA issue, I was told by the IRS this could not be done in advance of a person's death.

 

[kaudrey]

I helped my aunt set up Treasury Direct, and then just did everything with her by logging into the account.

 

[athena53]

I'm beginning to wonder what good it is to have a POA set up in advance of the need if they're not recorded. Since they can be invalidated by being revoked or superseded (and even the attorney who prepared the original might not know, since another attorney could handle the change), it's almost impossible to prove it's still in effect, meaning that most entities will want the grantee to come in and make a new one- with their preferred wording. As the OP has pointed out, that's frequently impractical.

 

[Katsmeow]

I'm not a lawyer and wanted to throw out a question: I assume most of these are revocable POAs. How can a bank ever know if the person granting it revoked it, even if the grantee shows up with the original document? I assume that they're filed in the County Recorder's office and that a revocation would be, too? In that case they can probably search the records on-line. I can see that they'd want to know that the POA is still in effect.

When I activated my mom's POA with her bank, they had no problem with the fact that her POA was almost 20 years old. What they did want was for me to sign an affidavit that it hadn't been revoked and basically indemnifying the bank if they paid out money because I falsely told them that. Those types of forms seem to be fairly common. In general, I would probably suggest to most people to run that kind of form by their attorney for review before signing it. In any event, getting the bank to recognize the POA was not difficult as it turned out.

To the OP -- If it is someone at the bank giving you an issue I would suggest trying a higher level person at the most "sophisticated" branch of the bank you can find. I did find out after my mom's death that her branch when I activated the POA made an error which had to be corrected after my mom's death. I ultimately got it corrected by going to a more, well, upscale branch that sees more POAs and was able to solve the problem.

FYI, I also found out that there is an involved process you have to go though with the IRS once a person dies to handle the estate as an executor. In dealing with the IRS/DPA issue, I was told by the IRS this could not be done in advance of a person's death.

I am in the process of getting appointing as Executor for my mom. Once I am appointed I will need to get an EIN for the estate which is actually able to be done online. Of course, none of that involves talking with the IRS just what I have to do to be able to do stuff for the estate. My mom is owed a couple of refund checks which will go to the estate. For that, I need the EIN.

 

[RobbieB]

I can see the concern as valid. With all the tales of elder abuse a 20 yr old POA w/o knowing both the principals looks sketchy.

 

[indiajust]

I gave up on banks decades ago, switched to strictly brokerage accounts. I've never had them treat me as badly as banks.

 

[Texas Proud]

Well, I guess I should update this since I did go in and talked to a branch manager when I had time...


It seems that there is NO power of attorney that I can have to cash in a savings bond..... they say it is the rules of the gvmt and not them... I was willing to bring in my mom to sign whatever they wanted so I could do it going forward and was told this.... he did consult with someone so I believe him on this...


Now, the strange info on this.... my mom has an expired drivers license and an expired passport... so neither of those were good to prove who she is... BUT, a medicare card and SS card is good!!! REALLY Two cards that do not have a picture of her or a copy of her signature will work but a driver license or passport that have both is not....


I had both so I cashed what I needed... the branch is just around the corner from my mom's assisted living so I will just put this as a stop when we take her out to lunch whenever I need to cash some more... the only bad is that the safe deposit box is at a different location and the new branches do not have any.... but once every two months is not that bad...

 

[Offgrid Organic Farmer]

Take your mother to her bank, while there ask them to put your name on the account. Your mother will need to agree.

Problem fixed.

 

[Bestwifeever]

Take your mother to her bank, while there ask them to put your name on the account. Your mother will need to agree.

Problem fixed.

I think he’s trying to cash in savings bonds that are in her name (kept at the bank’s safe deposit vault) —maybe not so easy to get his name added to them.

 

[Texas Proud]

Take your mother to her bank, while there ask them to put your name on the account. Your mother will need to agree.

Problem fixed.

Already on the account... been on it for years.... Bestwifeever explained my problem... it is with savings bonds and cashing them in...

 

[audreyh1]

Well, I guess I should update this since I did go in and talked to a branch manager when I had time...


It seems that there is NO power of attorney that I can have to cash in a savings bond..... they say it is the rules of the gvmt and not them... I was willing to bring in my mom to sign whatever they wanted so I could do it going forward and was told this.... he did consult with someone so I believe him on this...


Now, the strange info on this.... my mom has an expired drivers license and an expired passport... so neither of those were good to prove who she is... BUT, a medicare card and SS card is good!!! REALLY Two cards that do not have a picture of her or a copy of her signature will work but a driver license or passport that have both is not....


I had both so I cashed what I needed... the branch is just around the corner from my mom's assisted living so I will just put this as a stop when we take her out to lunch whenever I need to cash some more... the only bad is that the safe deposit box is at a different location and the new branches do not have any.... but once every two months is not that bad...

I was told that a drivers license can be used as ID even if expired? OK for voting anyway. It’s just the driving part that has expired. On the passport I was told (different source) that it was still valid ID up to 10 years after expiration.

 

[meierlde]

When I activated my mom's POA with her bank, they had no problem with the fact that her POA was almost 20 years old. What they did want was for me to sign an affidavit that it hadn't been revoked and basically indemnifying the bank if they paid out money because I falsely told them that. Those types of forms seem to be fairly common. In general, I would probably suggest to most people to run that kind of form by their attorney for review before signing it. In any event, getting the bank to recognize the POA was not difficult as it turned out.

To the OP -- If it is someone at the bank giving you an issue I would suggest trying a higher level person at the most "sophisticated" branch of the bank you can find. I did find out after my mom's death that her branch when I activated the POA made an error which had to be corrected after my mom's death. I ultimately got it corrected by going to a more, well, upscale branch that sees more POAs and was able to solve the problem.




I am in the process of getting appointing as Executor for my mom. Once I am appointed I will need to get an EIN for the estate which is actually able to be done online. Of course, none of that involves talking with the IRS just what I have to do to be able to do stuff for the estate. My mom is owed a couple of refund checks which will go to the estate. For that, I need the EIN.

Note that if he estate has more than $600 in income then you also need the EIN to file the 1041 estate income tax return. (There is a $600 exemption) For example you need to take the 1099 for interest and divide it into 2 parts one up to the day of death that goes on the final 1040 and one thereafter for the 1041.

 

[Katsmeow]

Note that if he estate has more than $600 in income then you also need the EIN to file the 1041 estate income tax return. (There is a $600 exemption) For example you need to take the 1099 for interest and divide it into 2 parts one up to the day of death that goes on the final 1040 and one thereafter for the 1041.

Yes, I know. I guess I will have to hire someone to do the return. I usually use tax software to do my return but it won't do an estate income tax return. The estate probably wouldn't go over the $600 except I plan to sell my mom's house from the estate rather than by me.

Well -- actually I am not sure. I doubt that there will be any profit on the sale given what will be the short time between death and sale particularly after deducting the costs involved in selling. I haven't researched this yet. Is the $600 based upon the amount received by the estate (net sale price of the home) which would be over $600 or is it based on whether that amount is taxable? I mean probably the house proceeds won't be taxable since there likely won't be a capital gain on the sale of the house. (Or anything else for that matter).

 

[meierlde]

Yes, I know. I guess I will have to hire someone to do the return. I usually use tax software to do my return but it won't do an estate income tax return. The estate probably wouldn't go over the $600 except I plan to sell my mom's house from the estate rather than by me.

Well -- actually I am not sure. I doubt that there will be any profit on the sale given what will be the short time between death and sale particularly after deducting the costs involved in selling. I haven't researched this yet. Is the $600 based upon the amount received by the estate (net sale price of the home) which would be over $600 or is it based on whether that amount is taxable? I mean probably the house proceeds won't be taxable since there likely won't be a capital gain on the sale of the house. (Or anything else for that matter).

For house sales it would be the capital gain that appears, not the selling, The big items would be and interest or dividends.


BTW if you buy turbotax business it does 1041s. The big decision if there is income is how much to to send to beneficiaries, because the rate structure on an estate tax return is steep.

 

[Katsmeow]

For house sales it would be the capital gain that appears, not the selling, The big items would be and interest or dividends.


BTW if you buy turbotax business it does 1041s. The big decision if there is income is how much to to send to beneficiaries, because the rate structure on an estate tax return is steep.

There won't be any interest or dividends. My mom's bank account and IRA passed to me outside of probate. I had to take an RMD on the inherited IRA as my mom had not taken it this year, but that is taxable to me.

The only assets in the estate itself are her car, household goods, and house. I will be selling all of these mostly likely within 6 months of her death so I don't expect any gain on any them. The household goods are mostly typical household stuff and personal belongings although she had a doll collection. But with the fees for an estate company to sell there won't be a gain in the time between my mom's death and the sale.

There are a couple of small things (she had a mineral lease) but the amount will be well under the $600.

The house itself is the only relatively big dollar item. I received a CMA on it dated 8 days before my mom's death (she was moving in with us so I was anticipating her selling the house). Even though this is a strong area for real estate sales I don't expect any gain by the time the house is sold once you factor in the costs of selling.

So it may be that I won't have to file a return for the estate then.

I am the only beneficiary of the estate.

 

[Texas Proud]

I was told that a drivers license can be used as ID even if expired? OK for voting anyway. It’s just the driving part that has expired. On the passport I was told (different source) that it was still valid ID up to 10 years after expiration.

It might be for some purposes, but the manager said that for savings bonds it is not... and I saw him look it up...


I agree that it SHOULD be valid for identification as the person is the person or is not... but gvmt can be funny at times...


As I said, two current forms of ID without a picture is golden and I will be using them going forward...

 

[audreyh1]

I know that you can use your passport to get a state ID in GA, if it’s less than 10 years expired. Dad decided not to renew his driver license, and I wondered about him getting a state ID. But I was told his expired DL is just fine for voting, so we did nothing.

 

[Texas Proud]

I know that you can use your passport to get a state ID in GA, if it’s less than 10 years expired. Dad decided not to renew his driver license, and I wondered about him getting a state ID. But I was told his expired DL is just fine for voting, so we did nothing.

Yea, I was thinking about going to the DMV and getting her just a state ID... I just do not want to wait in the long lines... have to find out if we can bypass them...

 

[audreyh1]

Yea, I was thinking about going to the DMV and getting her just a state ID... I just do not want to wait in the long lines... have to find out if we can bypass them...

That’s ultimately what I concluded for Dad. It would probably have been OK a few months after him moving to assisted living, but it would be really hard on him now.

His passport will cover him at least until 2023 since he traveled on it in 2013.

Fortunately I only have two accounts to deal with. I am on his bank account, and already registered as an agent with POA recorded on his brokerage account.