Really frugal? Read on...

[FUEGO]

(Emphasis mine.) I agree with you. Sorry, but I do not consider living off the work of one's spouse something which fits my definition of FI or retirement. A SAHD is no more retired than a SAHM if the spouse is working.

What do say about someone whose entire household spends 2.5% of their investment portfolio each year and has the paychecks from his wife piling up (unspent) in a money market account? What if that number was 1% and the working spouse worked 1 day per week because she likes what she does?

This comment is directed more generally beyond you, Scrabbler:

I'm starting to think some of your definitions of retirement aren't very fun any more. I can't spend time with my kids, piddle around in my yard with my garden and landscaping, or cook awesome meals (that's "being a SAHD" apparently). I can't do something I enjoy (and do for free at forums like this) and make a buck off of it with very occasional effort. You guys sure do put a lot of constraints on what someone can fill their day with.

Maybe because I'm 33 and not 20+ years older like the typical early retiree here. As much as I love laying in my hammock on my back deck cozied up with an engaging book, I can't do that all day every day.

 

[Ready]

Maybe because I'm 33 and not 20+ years older like the typical early retiree here. As much as I love laying in my hammock on my back deck cozied up with an engaging book, I can't do that all day every day.

It sounds like you have the perfect scenario for yourself. I see no need to put a perfectly defined label on it. Retirement means doing anything you feel like doing. Sounds like you're doing just that.

 

[thefinancebuff]

What do say about someone whose entire household spends 2.5% of their investment portfolio each year and has the paychecks from his wife piling up (unspent) in a money market account?

Still not FI/retired because when her paychecks pile up, they increase the 2.5% you can spend in the future. Money is fungible. You can spend her paychecks and let the portfolio grow. Or you can spend from the portfolio and let her paychecks grow the portfolio. Same thing.

 

[aja8888]

I think the case of soap was mine. I suspect no one else here does that. I found out the warehouse for the soap I buy was a few blocks from where we buy our groceries. It actually saves $1 a bar or about $24 a case to go 10 minutes out of our way, so the soap actually has a high ROI on my time, much more than clipping coupons, which I have not found to be time effective for me.

But I do buy in bulk and stockpile. I just bought a years supply of dish detergent that was on sale for 1/3 off, plus I had a store coupon for another 50% off the total order, free shipping, a 1% cash back credit card, a 5% store loyalty program and bought through 5% cash back portal.

Two cases of soap a year = $48 year savings X 50 years = $2.5K. If we find 100 items like that to cut annually it comes out to $250K less in total retirement funding needed. It all adds up, but I try to only do things that have a high ROI on my time. I don't grow my own food or anything like that because that would take a lot of work.

You are turning out to be my hero. I wish you could spend a week with my DW and show her your tenacity on how to hunt down the best deal. Seems like I am the one in the family that thinks about the low cost/high value proposition. Nice job!!

 

[FUEGO]

Still not FI/retired because when her paychecks pile up, they increase the 2.5% you can spend in the future. Money is fungible. You can spend her paychecks and let the portfolio grow. Or you can spend from the portfolio and let her paychecks grow the portfolio. Same thing.

Warren Buffet: the latest guy to find himself not FI because he's still working. True, his 0.01% SWR is now closer to 0.009% given his productive efforts.

I've given up all hope of reaching "true" FI.

 

[FUEGO]

It sounds like you have the perfect scenario for yourself. I see no need to put a perfectly defined label on it. Retirement means doing anything you feel like doing. Sounds like you're doing just that.

I think I'm going to give that hammock a try right now. That stack of novels by my bedside isn't going to read itself after all.

 

[aim-high]

Living on 2.5% of your investment portfolio is about $34K per year. The federal poverty level for a family of 5 is $28K per year. I'd say you live very, very frugally. Good for you.

My parents are retired by definition but are reliant on the government also in terms of medicaid. They aren't FI.

To me you've chosen a different path for earning a living. How it looks 10 years from now when you have 3 kids driving and going to college or 25 years from now is anyone's guess.

My big pet peeve is truth in advertising. Unfortunately our country accepts little of it. I personally find hitting all the buzzwords for personal finance and early retirement on a blog, loading it up with paid affiliate advertising links all over the place, and then saying you're not doing it for money is disingenuous - especially when that amounts to 25% - 40% of what you say you're living expenses are (based on current annual blog earnings from your posts.)

I don't have a problem with blogging, earning money, running personal finance sites, etc. I just personally find the way you (and some others) are going about it distasteful - but I guess that's why Baskin Robbins makes 31 flavors.

 

[thefinancebuff]

Warren Buffet: the latest guy to find himself not FI because he's still working. True, his 0.01% SWR is now closer to 0.009% given his productive efforts.

I've given up all hope of reaching "true" FI.

You are not Warren Buffet. When your income from working makes up a small percentage of your expenses you reach true FI. Otherwise you are dependent on the work income just like others.

 

[Payin-the-Toll]

Wife bought a can of 'Manwich' the other day just for the heck of it-----after mixing with hamburger and consuming it, kind of wish I'd had cat food instead.

 

[Andre1969]

Just out of curiosity, would you all have considered my Granddad to have been retired, in this scenario...

Granddad took ER from the federal government in 1971 at age 55, to care for an ailing aunt. She passed away within about a year, but Granddad decided to not go back to work. As a result, he took up most of the chores around the house, did gardening, cooking, worked on cars on the side, occasionally watched me when I was a little kid, etc.

Grandmom kept working full time until the end of 1980, when she retired from the federal gov't, but then went back to work on a part time/on-call basis, varying hours, until she finally reached 70.

I don't know if Grandmom HAD to work, but she definitely CHOSE to work. And she was a bit of a workaholic. In fact, when she finally quit working at 70, she went downhill fast, although she's still holding on at 90.

Anyway, would you all consider Granddad to have been retired? He was drawing a pension, so he was contributing to the household, and not being a kept man/househusband. And while he did the mechanic work and did make some money, it was more of a hobby.

 

[ERD50]

... I can't spend time with my kids, piddle around in my yard with my garden and landscaping, or cook awesome meals (that's "being a SAHD" apparently). I can't do something I enjoy (and do for free at forums like this) and make a buck off of it with very occasional effort. You guys sure do put a lot of constraints on what someone can fill their day with.

Wow, twisting words much?

I didn't see anyone 'complaining' about what you decide to do with your time. Where did that come from? Sounds like a straw man. But if you come out in public and call it something, expect some questions on whether that is an accurate description.

No one cares much what I call my 'retirement', because I'm not throwing it out there in public making money or attracting attention to it. If I needed to be accurate, I'd say I'm retired from my job/career. DW still works because she wants to, and I can say that her modest income isn't really a factor in my retirement decision, or our lifestyle, but I'd probably be lying if having another income stream during the last meltdown didn't provide a calming effect. Between divs and her income, there was very little selling in a down market (and that was selling fixed and re-balancing at what turned out to be pretty good timing).

But if I wanted to claim I was retired and FI, while DW still works, I'd expect some push-back - just like the chain smoker who claims he doesn't have a habit because he could quit any time.

...

To me you've chosen a different path for earning a living. How it looks 10 years from now when you have 3 kids driving and going to college or 25 years from now is anyone's guess.

My big pet peeve is truth in advertising. Unfortunately our country accepts little of it. I personally find hitting all the buzzwords for personal finance and early retirement on a blog, loading it up with paid affiliate advertising links all over the place, and then saying you're not doing it for money is disingenuous - especially when that amounts to 25% - 40% of what you say you're living expenses are (based on current annual blog earnings from your posts.)

I don't have a problem with blogging, earning money, running personal finance sites, etc. I just personally find the way you (and some others) are going about it distasteful - but I guess that's why Baskin Robbins makes 31 flavors.

+1.

-ERD50

 

[NW-Bound]

I think the case of soap was mine. I suspect no one else here does that. I found out the warehouse for the soap I buy was a few blocks from where we buy our groceries. It actually saves $1 a bar or about $24 a case to go 10 minutes out of our way, so the soap actually has a high ROI on my time, much more than clipping coupons, which I have not found to be time effective for me.

But I do buy in bulk and stockpile. I just bought a years supply of dish detergent that was on sale for 1/3 off, plus I had a store coupon for another 50% off the total order, free shipping, a 1% cash back credit card, a 5% store loyalty program and bought through 5% cash back portal.
...

My wife also likes to buy in bulk (and me too). For example, when finding that a store has tomato sauce or chicken broth on an excellent sale, she would buy two cases.

The problem with that is that one can never downsize the house. We do not intend to, but man, one must be careful not to turn the home into a warehouse. By the way, we stopped using soap bars long ago, as we found that liquid soap caused less waste.

 

[aja8888]

Wife bought a can of 'Manwich' the other day just for the heck of it-----after mixing with hamburger and consuming it, kind of wish I'd had cat food instead.

I have done engineering projects in tuna processing facilities in Puerto Rico (Bumble Bee, etc) and NOTHING is wasted from processing raw tuna fish. The stuff that actually goes into cat food (at those plants) consists of the "parts" that don't go into retail tuna cans. Use your imagination.

 

[FIREd]

Since my wife is unlikely to retire entirely anytime soon, perhaps I should change my screen name back to FIREdreamer.

 

[NW-Bound]

I have done engineering projects in tuna processing facilities in Puerto Rico (Bumble Bee, etc) and NOTHING is wasted from processing raw tuna fish. The stuff that actually goes into cat food (at those plants) consists of the "parts" that don't go into retail tuna cans. Use your imagination.

That's of course not at all bad for cats. Out in the wild, animals eat all of their preys, except for bones. It makes them strong.

Now, is it really bad for humans too?

 

[scrabbler1]

What do say about someone whose entire household spends 2.5% of their investment portfolio each year and has the paychecks from his wife piling up (unspent) in a money market account? What if that number was 1% and the working spouse worked 1 day per week because she likes what she does?

This comment is directed more generally beyond you, Scrabbler:

I'm starting to think some of your definitions of retirement aren't very fun any more. I can't spend time with my kids, piddle around in my yard with my garden and landscaping, or cook awesome meals (that's "being a SAHD" apparently). I can't do something I enjoy (and do for free at forums like this) and make a buck off of it with very occasional effort. You guys sure do put a lot of constraints on what someone can fill their day with.

Maybe because I'm 33 and not 20+ years older like the typical early retiree here. As much as I love laying in my hammock on my back deck cozied up with an engaging book, I can't do that all day every day.

But you are also dependent on your wife's working for your health insurance. Would you be able to forgo her income and pay for your entire family's HI for many years (even with the ACA) if she were not working?

If I were married and were able to piggyback onto her employer's group health plan, I'd have been able to retire years before I actually did. HI was my biggest obstacle to ER back in 2008 (before the ACA).

 

[daylatedollarshort]

To me you've chosen a different path for earning a living. How it looks 10 years from now when you have 3 kids driving and going to college or 25 years from now is anyone's guess.

+1. With our kids driving, we pay an extra $2K a year for car insurance, and I have shopped around. That is with zero accidents and tickets. On $34K that would be a 5% increase in living costs just for car insurance.

The local community college still costs ~$3k with books, tuition, parking. etc. plus gas and mileage. There is a 10% increase over $34K, per college age kid, and that doesn't include buying another car for the kids to share.

An 18 year kid into sports is going to eat you out of house and home, and when his friends are over it will look like locusts went through your pantry.

Then there's the big stuff that happens to most of us if you live long enough - serious illness with out of pocket maxes and out of network costs, helping aging relatives, nursing home costs, etc.

Last year we paid $50K in health care expenses due to one family member needing surgery. It would have been lower under a subsidized ACA plan, but we still would have had $6K out of pocket max for an individual, ($12k per family if it had been something like a car accident) and $20K in out of network and travel costs, plus premiums.

 

[aja8888]

That's of course not at all bad for cats. Out in the wild, animals eat all of their preys, except for bones. It makes them strong.

Now, is it really bad for humans too?

In a tuna processing plant, the bones go in the ball mill for pulverizing along with other "non-flesh" parts. That stuff usually gets sold as part of fish meal and may be added to other food products.

None of this is harmful to humans.

 

[Katsmeow]

But if I wanted to claim I was retired and FI, while DW still works, I'd expect some push-back - just like the chain smoker who claims he doesn't have a habit because he could quit any time.

I really don't get that. DH retired when he was 62. He hasn't worked a day since then. And, we are FI. Yet, I semi-retired at 56 when he retired and I've worked since then (12 hours a week at the height, now it is about 2 or 3 hours a month). I don't see how what I've chosen to do affects whether he is retired or whether we are FI. I mean part of being FI is that you get to choose what you want to do,

I think what I'm reading here is that it makes a difference how old you are -- and maybe gender makes a difference.

That is, my DH is 66 now and I work very limited hours (about 2 or 3 hours a month). I doubt that many here would think that this suddenly means we aren't FI or that DH isn't really retired. But, what about the year when I worked 12 hours a week and made almost 6 figures from that work. DH was 64 then so maybe some would still seem as retired. But, would they think it was different if he had been 34 instead of 64.

Also, what about a woman who worked when she was younger and then was a SAHM mom for some years. Her kids grow up and are out of the house. She turns, say, 60 years old and her husband retires that year. What is she? Is she retired? Is she still a SAHM since her kids are gone. Is she now a homemaker?

 

[smjsl]

Regarding the question of whether FUEGO can be called "retired", question for those that say "no"...

What about this situation: a single person X stops working completely and lives off of their investments on $Y/year; i.e. the less controversial definition of "retirement".

Then, they meet a wonderful person and marry them. Their partner happens to be working. So is now this person X UNretired? Did UNretirement happen when they got the marriage license or when they moved in together or when they started sharing expenses? What if person X's outflows from the investments is still $Y for the combined household?

Just wondering...

 

[NW-Bound]

In a tuna processing plant, the bones go in the ball mill for pulverizing along with other "non-flesh" parts. That stuff usually gets sold as part of fish meal and may be added to other food products...

for humans? If so, can you name some? I want to be strong, but not that strong.

None of this is harmful to humans.

It's most likely not. Still...

They probably even know how to make it taste good. Nothing that a bit of garlic, pepper, and salt cannot spice up.

 

[rodi]

I posted in another thread that disputed that in couples where one spouse works the other can't be considered retired. I had issues with it there and have issues with it here.

Fuego says they can afford to have his wife quit. She's chosen not to. I believe him. He's posted details on their frugal living and budget - so he's walking the walk of LBYM.

The fact that they have school age children changes things? The fact that he's married changes things?

We have school age children. My husband IS retired. I hope to join him in 48 weeks (or less - my bs bucket at work might tip this week.)

We have enough money to live off our investments and income streams now. So does my working effect my husbands retirement status? I think not.

And the definition that you can only be FIREd if you're living off dividends alone is absolutely ridiculous. Lots of retired people living on Pensions, SS, Rental income (managed by others). Lots of people with withdrawal rates that will end with no money in the nest egg when they kick it at age 90 or 100... are they not retired because they are drawing down their principal?

The label police need to get a grip.

 

[ERD50]

Originally Posted by ERD50 View Post

But if I wanted to claim I was retired and FI, while DW still works, I'd expect some push-back - just like the chain smoker who claims he doesn't have a habit because he could quit any time.

I really don't get that. DH retired when he was 62. He hasn't worked a day since then. And, we are FI. Yet, I semi-retired at 56 when he retired and I've worked since then (12 hours a week at the height, now it is about 2 or 3 hours a month). I don't see how what I've chosen to do affects whether he is retired or whether we are FI. I mean part of being FI is that you get to choose what you want to do, ...

I'm not saying it can't be justified. I'm just saying (and that is what I said) if you are going to blog about it, and make money from the blog about how you are retired and FI, then I think you can expect some 'push-back' for that statement.

I'm not even saying the 'push-back' is justified. Maybe they are the ones who are off-base. But it turned back into an attack on anyone questioning it, essentially saying we are all closed-minded if his lifestyle doesn't exactly match ours. That was off-base, and uncalled for IMO.

-ERD50

 

[Calico]

....And the definition that you can only be FIREd if you're living off dividends alone is absolutely ridiculous. Lots of retired people living on Pensions, SS, Rental income (managed by others). Lots of people with withdrawal rates that will end with no money in the nest egg when they kick it at age 90 or 100... are they not retired because they are drawing down their principal?

The label police need to get a grip.

+100

 

[daylatedollarshort]

I think for some of the extreme ER bloggers it is more of a question of the basic numbers not adding up more than terminology.

In that case, if you can't defend yourself with facts and spreadsheets, then mocking and name calling people who question your numbers is really your only defense.