Retirement drawdown

I'm just trying to understand the various comments on this thread that are saying SPIA's (specifically) are not an option for a retiree.

The various objections that come from forum members are mostly irrational, based on a fallacy that if a counterparty makes a profit on trading with you, you must be losing. Another fallacy is framing the relevant entity as the portfolio, rather than lifetime consumption and security. So once the annuities have been purchased, we can no longer gaze so fondly on our total assets and think what very good, virtuous people we have been. A big loss for some of us, including me.

I've been here over 7 years, and I have never seen it dawn on people that these two assumptions (and others) can lead to biased and faulty thinking.

Clearly more competition will likely push down margins- but under current real interest rates there is no way an individual can mimic what a COLA lifetime SPIA can offer him, even under current competitive conditions. And what is being offered is a very valuable thing, as any government worker can attest. A check arriving every month, that will stay current with the cost of living as defined by CPI-U, no matter what happens in markets of the economy. Compare that to a computer program that will attempt to tell us how to safely draw down our portfolios to try to approximate this same result

If any one thinks that his equity allocation and SWR can do this as well or better, he should look at pages 7 and 8 of Worry Free Investing by Zvi Bodie, professor of finance at BU School of Management.

A member can make documented observations that are historical fact, and even though they give clear counter examples of the consensus "principles" the consensus of opinion will not be moved one inch.

If it is counter to the received consensus, only one's direct personal experience is given any validity, and usually by that person only. Even the sobering effect of personal bruising typically doesn't last long beyond the crisis.

During the 08-09 downturn some people disappeared from the boards, and others who are still here came very close to abandoning their committment to their allocation. At the present time we can look back and say, "I was smart and brave that I stayed the course". But if we were in Japan, we would look back and say, "Oh, I was stupid and foolhardy, I should have got out and stayed out!"

So Rescueme, I would save my breath. Not going to be much questioning of beliefs happening.

Ha
 
While we're at it, what about the risk of default with annuities? Are they typically federally insured?
 
While we're at it, what about the risk of default with annuities? Are they typically federally insured?

No. I would say that analysis, diversification among different providers as well as asset classes other than annuities, and familiarity with state guarantees all would be important.

Ha
 
So Rescueme, I would save my breath.
Yes I know; however I hate to see a product like an SPIA (which has worked well in our situation) be dismissed due to "false assumptions" that are often made on a forum, where we are all trying to share possible solutions to a perceived challange...

I'm not saying that it is a solution for everybody, but in some cases it is, assuming you do a full analysis of the specific product vs. your indivudial need.
 
I have a big problem trading with Insurance companies as every time I've been involved with them I've lost money. Problem is they don't trade fairly as there is always 40 pages of disclosures to protect them from screwing with you. No doubt that I'm not smart enough to figure out what they are saying. You may be able to prove that they are all not unfair but it won't change the way I feel. 3 Whole Life Policies all ending in litigation with payouts to me from the courts. I can go on with other dealings with insurance companies but you get the idea.

All this may be irrational but that's how I feel and they won't get any more of my money.
 
3 Whole Life Policies all ending in litigation with payouts to me from the courts. I can go on with other dealings with insurance companies but you get the idea.

All this may be irrational but that's how I feel and they won't get any more of my money.

Well, this would make me sit up and take notice too. Although I am not sure, it seems that weasel opportunities are less with an annuity. If you are alive, you are supposed to get the payment. But I haven't done research at this level of granularity, so I really have no experience or relevant knowledge. When I recently looked into annuities it was mainly to compare with payback of social security.

Only 2 companies offer COLA annuities in my state; their bids were about 7% apart, and both quite a bit higher than the comparable required payback and payments missed for an equal added annuity amount from social security.

Ha
 
I feel that if I deal with the market in general I have a 50/50 chance of doing OK. If I deal with an insurance company that % drops as they have to take their vig out of me. No thanks, been there done that.
 
Looking for a little help on our retirement drawdown plan.

We’ve been going through the accumulation phase, for the most part lock into the company provided 401K selections. Between the both of us we’ve saved about 1.1 million, combined in taxed deferred 401K & tax free ROTHS. We need about 32K annually out of the portfolio to live, for us, very comfortably. I’m younger than my wife and overall we’re looking a making sure the portfolio lasts 40 years.

Here’s what I’m thinking about & I’m looking for input on why or why not it won’t work.

a. Invest 600K into a dividend producing fund that keeps a pretty consistent price and has a yield in the 3% range = 18K annually
b. Invest 400K in a broad market indexed funds and draw 14K inflation adjusted from principle annually.

In retrospect the accumulation phase of retirement planning looks pretty easy, I’m struggling with the draw down phase. We’re not looking to necessarily leave a finacial legacy behind but we also don’t want to run out of money. The idea of a reliable dividend income stream is attractive to me but I'm wondering what others have found works

Sorry if this is too basic or off topic
Willift

It looks like you're in good shape. I'll mention one other thing that I don't see in the comments so far.

You'll be starting SS 7-15 years from now. Presumably, you'll want bigger withdrawals from you personal accounts during those 7-15 years than later. (You didn't mention this, and I'm not sure why you didn't.) This aggravates your risk of a down market soon after you retire, since you'll be withdrawing more.

Someone as risk averse as I am would move some money to something that has very low market risk. If my SS benefit @62 is $15,000, I might put 7x$15k = $105k into CDs and TIPs. The remaining $900k in the investment portfolio now needs to support $15k less in annual withdrawals in the early years. Choosing the latest age, that SS benefit would be $26k if started at 70 (nearly your $32k bogey). That would require a carve out of $390k, leaving $500k to support the remaining $6k of annual withdrawals.

Yes, I know that if you're pretty certain you can earn a COLA'd 3% in dividends on a stock fund with a consistent (preumably inflation adjusted) price, this is a silly idea. It's just that I'd be nervous about that assumption.
 
Only 2 companies offer COLA annuities in my state; their bids were about 7% apart, and both quite a bit higher than the comparable required payback and payments missed for an equal added annuity amount from social security.

I'm not sure exactly how to read that. Are you saying you're money ahead by buying the private SPIA vs. deferring SS, or that deferring SS beats the private SPIA?
 
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You'll be starting SS 7-15 years from now. Presumably, you'll want bigger withdrawals from you personal accounts during those 7-15 years than later. (You didn't mention this, and I'm not sure why you didn't.) This aggravates your risk of a down market soon after you retire, since you'll be withdrawing more.

Someone as risk averse as I am would move some money to something that has very low market risk. If my SS benefit @62 is $15,000, I might put 7x$15k = $105k into CDs and TIPs. The remaining $900k in the investment portfolio now needs to support $15k less in annual withdrawals in the early years. Choosing the latest age, that SS benefit would be $26k if started at 70 (nearly your $32k bogey). That would require a carve out of $390k, leaving $500k to support the remaining $6k of annual withdrawals.

I quess I was being conservative on the 2nd SS. If the bride dies before I'm 62 I'd look at spousal benefits until I was 70. If things go as planned and she's still around then that would be $$ we could look at. Anyway from this point we'll need 32K approx.

You kinda lost me on the need for the CD
 
I'm not sure exactly how to read that. Are you saying you're money ahead by buying the private SPIA vs. deferring SS, or that deferring SS beats the private SPIA?

Under current conditions, deferring SS beats the private annuities, by a considerable margin.

Ha
 
Hello Chinaco - do you have annuities ? I would like to understand more precisely how they work (i.e. taxes, fees, etc.). In my opinion, annuities sound like an ideal financial product when I reach 62.


I do not have a SPIA. I am still working. I will get a small company pension (non-COLA). DW will take SS at 62. I am intending to defer my SS till FRA or 70.

I am mindful that there are many many things that can happen over the course of a lifetime that can jeopardize one's financial well being. I have been considering using some of our assets to purchase a SPIA to build a base income to support our basic lifestyle. The reason is to reduce risk and try to ensure that our (and the survivor's) lifestyle is not in jeopardy.


But I am going to wait to see what happens with interest rates. Till that time, I will use assets to provide income during ER.


There are many factors that need to be considered to determine if a SPIA is a good idea for an individual or couple. I would not recommend making a hasty decision. Educate your self about your options for funding retirement.


Every financial decision entails some sort of risk. One of the biggest issues is lack of information and knowledge when making decisions.

And while forums like this are good for comparing notes... do not take any information on blind faith!!!

Educate yourself. There is plenty of good books at public libraries about retirement planning, basic investing, annuities, etc.
 
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