If Americans count that little perturbation, which is very limited in scope and being handled quite well in a very transparent way inside our current system, as a "debacle," then we are truly blessed to be a people with minor problems. The fact that we are exercised about it is a good thing, too.
Slightly more detailed info on how much American retirees have saved...
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NW-Bound
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Apple being allowed to appeal a court order and going all the way up to the SC is a debacle?
The US government is not perfect, but far from the worse. One needs to go live in another country, not just as a tourist, to understand how the locals are treated by its government. Usually, foreign tourists bring in money, so are left alone and they do not know how the natives live.
For us, it's his and her 401k's (3), his and her IRA at Schwab (2), his and her Roth at Schwab (2), his and her IRA at Vanguard (2), his SARSEP (1). So, that's 10 accounts.
I have after-tax investment accounts, which I definitely consider my retirement savings. That's another 7 accounts, not counting banking accounts.
The US government is not perfect, but far from the worse. One needs to go live in another country, not just as a tourist, to understand how the locals are treated by its government. Usually, foreign tourists bring in money, so are left alone and they do not know how the natives live.
For us, it's his and her 401k's (3), his and her IRA at Schwab (2), his and her Roth at Schwab (2), his and her IRA at Vanguard (2), his SARSEP (1). So, that's 10 accounts.
I have after-tax investment accounts, which I definitely consider my retirement savings. That's another 7 accounts, not counting banking accounts.
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OrcasIslandBound
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I thought the thread was about how little most Americans had saved. What does this have to do with how many accounts we have?
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NW-Bound
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It's because statistics count money in each account, and fail to compensate for the fact that people usually have several.
If they look at only my smallest account, they will say that this NW-Bound is going to eat cat food.
If they look at only my smallest account, they will say that this NW-Bound is going to eat cat food.
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Danmar
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Yes, I'm starting to feel this way as well. The people on this forum are smarter and richer than most. Good for us!!
Funny. I feel more and more nervous about government the closer I get to collecting Social Security.
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NW-Bound
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I have always been neutral between the government and the people, generally speaking. Both governments and peoples have been able to commit atrocities like genocide in the past.
OrcasIslandBound
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papadad111
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+1. Absolutely.
There is bound to be some forms of wealth transfer through this process. How it manifests itself is anyone's guess. Kitces talks about the risk of taxation to certain retirement accounts, inheritance tax changes, reduced SS, medical care costs where those who can afford cover those who can not...
It's all a bit ominous knowing someone will want your pile.
As senator said a few weeks ago " booze, lead and guns"
Not to be flippant, but in a broader context what exactly do you think the last 8 years, and ZIRP, have been all about? It has been a systematic transfer of wealth of enormous proportions from savers to spenders/debtors. If you have been a saver you have been under attack for years, and if the FED is crazy enough to follow the other fools down the rabbit hole to the land of NIRP, it will be a full-on nuclear war on savers.
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NW-Bound
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They asked people for the total savings. It's good.
In the past, many articles just used the balance of accounts at a brokerage or a 401k custodian to prove that retirees will be in dire straits.
Except that savers benefited the most as the markets tripled, and companies had records profits and cash holdings. But yeah....
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There is a big difference between savers (most) and stock market shareholders. While there is overlap, it is not any where near as great as you might think.
Edit: should also add that the tripling was from the bottom and for most stockholders the relevant benchmark is more like 50% i.e. The market was at 12,000 before plunging to 6,000 then going back to 16s today.
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Car-Guy
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Exactly the opposite for me. When I was growing up I had a great deal of respect for the US government and I was very patriotic. Not anymore, however after traveling around the world several times, I still wouldn't want to live anywhere else. Read into that what you like.
Not me. Hard to lose something I never had.
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Please. I am certain you understand the distinction for purposes of this discussion.
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You claimed savers are getting screwed by these policies. My market driven mortgage rate was locked at under 3%, my retirement savings in the markets have ballooned, all in the time frame you outlined. These are market driven and therefore public outcomes. I'm not a bondholder, but those guys did ok too.
The car company bailouts did ok, etc. I'm not seeing compelling evidence to support your point.
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Saving is adding to your resources. Investing may or may not add & can reduce them.
It is not a claim. It is a fact. When interest rates are driven artificially low to stimulate growth a DIRECT byproduct of that policy is transfer of wealth from savers to borrowers. That is a large aspect of the policy efficacy based upon the fact that borrowings dwarf savings in terms of impacting the economy.
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AnonEMouse
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I'd venture to say that the primary benefactors of such policies of governments worldwide is not to transfer wealth from Jane Saver to Joe Blow down the street but rather to reduce the real value of the massive government debts owed. Increasing inflation and fighting deflation is all towards the same end.
At any rate, I think this argument misses the point of this thread, which is "how much does my neighbor (probably) have saved and should I stock up on firearms and ammunition to a) protect my stash or b) take over his/her stash."
As I have already written, but will repeat, it is a consequence (byproduct) of the policy. The primary purpose is to "benefit" the economy by creating growth, and inflation, which will in-turn make it easier for massive debts to be repaid with cheaper dollars. Finally, the lowering of borrowing costs to government is also a dangerous byproduct.
The other writ large issue being played out through Central Bank interest rate intervention is a sub-rosa currency war. By driving interest rates lower than the next guy, you drive your currency lower, which in turn makes your exports cheaper. This is just plain old competitive currency devaluations of yore being played out with the absurdity of now negative interest rates by some players to get a devaluation advantage.
Honestly, this is all out of the basic Central Banker play book.
Nice little summary in this piece in The Economist: http://www.economist.com/blogs/buttonwood/2013/04/investing-0
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M Paquette
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The period since the Great Recession of Ought-Eight has been pretty good for folks who already had savings and who understood the statistically favorable actions to take, but not so good for folks just starting out saving or who sold stock and stayed out of the market since then.
Bonds and CDs haven't done all that well since then.
For us boring old asset allocation and regular rebalance index fund investors, the time since the Great Recession has been pretty good, I think. If one also took advantage of tax loss harvesting in taxable accounts, it's been really good. (I can offset capital gains for HOW MANY DECADES
)
For folks who didn't bother to save for retirement, well, maybe they have a pension, or perhaps they just plan to work until they can't and then shop the cat food sales. Planning ahead works better than denial.
Bonds and CDs haven't done all that well since then.
For us boring old asset allocation and regular rebalance index fund investors, the time since the Great Recession has been pretty good, I think. If one also took advantage of tax loss harvesting in taxable accounts, it's been really good. (I can offset capital gains for HOW MANY DECADES
)For folks who didn't bother to save for retirement, well, maybe they have a pension, or perhaps they just plan to work until they can't and then shop the cat food sales. Planning ahead works better than denial.
ChiliPepr
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Very true... if your net worth is over $1, you are worth more than the poorest 40% of all Americans combined.
NW-Bound
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True, according to the report that says "41% of these households have no retirement savings whatsoever." Zero times 100 million is still less than $1.
But it only applies to retirement savings. Counting other assets, it's a different story. All together, how many smartphones they have bought and owned, compared to my used and obsolete iPhone 3? How many cars and homes? And when they draw SS, what does that add up to?
Speaking of my iPhone 3, it's abandoned by Apple and I cannot update iOS. Quite a few apps no longer run. What the hell? I am pissed. It works well enough for me, and I do not care to carry a new phone as big as a tablet. Have I said I am pissed?
But it only applies to retirement savings. Counting other assets, it's a different story. All together, how many smartphones they have bought and owned, compared to my used and obsolete iPhone 3? How many cars and homes? And when they draw SS, what does that add up to?
Speaking of my iPhone 3, it's abandoned by Apple and I cannot update iOS. Quite a few apps no longer run. What the hell? I am pissed. It works well enough for me, and I do not care to carry a new phone as big as a tablet. Have I said I am pissed?
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