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Re: Stocks in Retirement: why bother ?
Old 03-14-2005, 03:57 AM   #41
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Re: Stocks in Retirement: why bother ?

: sailaway - This is not a living trust (I have a living trust also), this is an irrevocable trust. My Tax Lawyer set this up and when the 1 Million policy pays off at my death the value is not part of my estate.

I met with my Lawer last month to review 2005 and that tax free amount is 1.5 Million per person for this year.

I think their is no estate tax in 2010 BUT unless congress act to make the Bush tax cuts permanent the estate taxes start again in 2011 and the tax free amount per person goes back down to $650,000. I don't think the democrates will ever allow the estate tax to go completely go away.

I think you are correct that I did not take advantage of my wife's tax free amount. But at the time I did not want to committ $600,000 in assets to that special trust upon one of our deaths. My Lawyer recommended that I do this. At the time I did not think my estate was large enough and I thought I would spend a good part of our assets for retirement. Plus I only planned to give the 1 Million policy to my kids.

Tony
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Re: Stocks in Retirement: why bother ?
Old 03-14-2005, 04:07 AM   #42
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Re: Stocks in Retirement: why bother ?

:eridanaus - You are not understanding how I am protecting against inflation. Key, if you make up the monthly payment shortage caused by inflation buy purchasing new immediate annuities at an older ages, your shorter life span creates larger montly payments (high that the 7.3885% cash flow on each new immediate annuity. I would buy a new immediate annuity every 5 years or when I feel that my money isn't buying what I expct it to buy.

If you read my 1st two posts they completely explain what I did. Every base is covered including inflation.

I have $550,000 remaining after I purchased the immediate annuity. This is the amount that I invest to protect my fixed payments from inflation.
-----------------------------------------------------
My cost for the immediate annuities which I bought in May of 2004. Well I payed $889,287.49 and receive $5,475.42 per month or $65,705.04 per year for the remainder of my life. $2,146.00 per month or $26,832.00 per year is Tax Free.

That is a cash flow rate of 7.3885% ($65,705.04/$889,287.49).
-----------------------------------------------------------------

$75,000 I keep in a money market account ING Direct

What did I invest my reaming portfolio of $475,000 in? All but $75,000 in Deferred Fixed Annuities.

I put $150,000 in a fixed annuity with a 10 year interest rate guarantee of 5.15%.

I put $100,000 in a fixed annuity with a 6 year interest rate guarantee of 4.20%

I put $150,000 in an equity index annuity. This is more long term 10 to 15 years. This gives an opportunity to earn higher interest rates than regular fixed annuities without risking your initial investment amount plus interest earned. This is NOT a variable annuity, I think variable annuities are expensive with the fees. Variable annuities are like a mutual funds, your initial investment can lose value. They have some guarantees against loss, but I just don't like them.

With these 3 annuities I am very well protected against inflation.

What am I doing with the last $75,000? This is my play money. I do some swing trading. Buy 3 or 4 stocks and hold them for 3 weeks to 6 months. If I am good at it, this $75,000 will grow nicely over time and will also provide additional inflation protection. If I suck at this, I will lose the $75,000 and I will never do this again. To this point, my $75,000 has grown to about $125,000. Can I be successful over several years? I don't yet know the answer to that. That is why I call this play money!

The point is that you can invest the $550,000 any way you want, I chose to do the above.


*****
What you don't get is that it will be 5 years before I convert some of the $550,000 plus growth into an additional immediate annuity to provide me the bump up in monthy payment to offset inflation. I will also be 5 years older so montly payments will be higher per dollar invested. I will only use a small portion of my portfolio to get the increase in monly payment that I will need. I will do this every 5 years.

The cash flow rate will be higher than the 7.3885% I currently receive and will be higher in each subsequent 5 year period.

Tony



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Re: Stocks in Retirement: why bother ?
Old 03-14-2005, 04:19 AM   #43
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Re: Stocks in Retirement: why bother ?

Hello Tony. I am easily bored and you are pushing the
envelope

JG
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Re: Stocks in Retirement: why bother ?
Old 03-14-2005, 04:47 AM   #44
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Re: Stocks in Retirement: why bother ?

: MRGALT2U - Then everyone on this board must bore you because I have seen very few exciting posts on this message board.

Why do you read anything on this board?


I must say that what I did with my portfolio is very exciting to me.

I go out and spend most the $5,475.42 per month or $65,705.04 per year on whatever I want.

The best thing is that I do not have to worry about spending every single dollar of that money.

This fells like the weight of the world has been taken off my sholders.

I know that it will be deposited in my account each and every month!

This strategy works great for me. Live, Love & Enjoy Life! Tony

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Re: Stocks in Retirement: why bother ?
Old 03-14-2005, 04:55 AM   #45
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Re: Stocks in Retirement: why bother ?

Hey Tony! I love this board.

Re. "Why do you read
anything on this board?" Easy, because I am posting
here and I find my own stuff endlessly fascinating,
entertaining, and full of pithy commentary and witty
rejoinders

JG
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Re: Stocks in Retirement: why bother ?
Old 03-14-2005, 05:17 AM   #46
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Re: Stocks in Retirement: why bother ?

: MRGALT2U - I find what I did very exciting too and love sharing it. Why do try and stop people from sharing experiences

I am loving and living my life to its max, I have money to burn with NO financial worries and I can do this for as long as I live and have my health, guaranteed!


Tony
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Re: Stocks in Retirement: why bother ?
Old 03-14-2005, 05:45 AM   #47
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Re: Stocks in Retirement: why bother ?

It's not about you Tony.

It has to do with the Legendary Deep Throat aka "Follow the Money."

Who gets paid what(fees, commissions) and what are the nuts and bolts of what they(annuity companies) invest in to make their money.

We live in an age of skepticism - Buffett - if after the first few hands of poker, you don't know who the patsy is, then it must be you.

The insurance/annuity/estate field has received it's fair(perhaps overdone?) share of bashing due to fees/expenses/performance relative to index funds.

I notice with the relative flat market since 2000, financial markets have warmed up to annuities - along with gold, international, resources, commodities, etc,, etc.

Yikes! Shades of the 70's and 80's. I can hardly wait for those 12% Swiss annuities that I remember to show up again.
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Re: Stocks in Retirement: why bother ?
Old 03-14-2005, 06:07 AM   #48
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Re: Stocks in Retirement: why bother ?

: unclemick2 - I did not pay any fees.

I invested $889,287.49 into immediate annuities that pays me $5,475.42 per month or $65,705.04 (7.3385%)per year for as long as I live guaranteed. This is what I get, no deductions for fees and I don't write a check for any. I know that I received the highest montly payment because the guy I worked with quoted all the companies that do immediate annuities and I did my own Due Dilligence as well.

The 10 Year rate at 5.15% is applied with no fees or annual charges. I get the full rate and it compounds annually. So if I calculate the actual yield compounded over the 10 years my return is much higher than the 5.15%. This does have charges if I cancell early. This does not matter to me beacuse I made a commitment for the full 10 years and got a higher rate for doing that. They do allow me to take out 10% of my account value each year with no charges and if I die all early charges are eliminated.

Fees are meaningless with immediate annuities and deferred annuities that pay you an interest rate. There are none. At least there are none with the ones I bought and most of the ones I looked at.


Tony

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Re: Stocks in Retirement: why bother ?
Old 03-14-2005, 06:25 AM   #49
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Re: Stocks in Retirement: why bother ?

Guys, don't feed the troll/spamming sh!thead.
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Re: Stocks in Retirement: why bother ?
Old 03-14-2005, 06:36 AM   #50
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Re: Stocks in Retirement: why bother ?

:brewer12345 - Come bak in 30 Years and will see if you have any assets left to generate income for you or if the actual Dollars you receive are higher or lower than when you first started.

Remember what all advisors say and those commericals and adds say!

"Past investment performace does not guarantee future results"

This means that you have no idea what your future returs will be and they can also be losses.

You have 3 variables that you do not know at this point in time:

1. Your future rate of return
2. The future inflation rate
3: If you will be disaplined enough to only take 4% per year from your assets.


I only have one variable. The future inflation rate.

I know that my montly payment can not go lower than $5,475.42 per month or $65,705.04 per year. I know that in 14 months I will start to receive about $1,200 per month of social security that will incease each year.

I also have certainty of rate for $250,000 of my $550,000 because i locked in rates for 10 year & 6 years.

1 variable is easier to plan for that 3 variables. This is common sense!

In 30 Years I will be 90 and I don't think I will be out and about spending money like I am now. Plus I have set up inflation contingencies and it is a very sound strategy.


You still don't understand how I am protecting myself on inflation. No one person has looked at my whole picture disputed my inflation protection.

I will Repeat!

You are not understanding how I am protecting against inflation. Key, if you make up the monthly payment shortage caused by inflation buy purchasing new immediate annuities at an older ages, your shorter life span creates larger montly payments (high that the 7.3885% cash flow on each new immediate annuity. I would buy a new immediate annuity every 5 years or when I feel that my money isn't buying what I expct it to buy.

If you read my 1st two posts they completely explain what I did. Every base is covered including inflation.

I have $550,000 remaining after I purchased the immediate annuity. This is the amount that I invest to protect my fixed payments from inflation.
-----------------------------------------------------
My cost for the immediate annuities which I bought in May of 2004. Well I payed $889,287.49 and receive $5,475.42 per month or $65,705.04 per year for the remainder of my life. $2,146.00 per month or $26,832.00 per year is Tax Free.

That is a cash flow rate of 7.3885% ($65,705.04/$889,287.49).
-----------------------------------------------------------------

$75,000 I keep in a money market account ING Direct

What did I invest my reaming portfolio of $475,000 in? All but $75,000 in Deferred Fixed Annuities.

I put $150,000 in a fixed annuity with a 10 year interest rate guarantee of 5.15%.

I put $100,000 in a fixed annuity with a 6 year interest rate guarantee of 4.20%

I put $150,000 in an equity index annuity. This is more long term 10 to 15 years. This gives an opportunity to earn higher interest rates than regular fixed annuities without risking your initial investment amount plus interest earned. This is NOT a variable annuity, I think variable annuities are expensive with the fees. Variable annuities are like a mutual funds, your initial investment can lose value. They have some guarantees against loss, but I just don't like them.

With these 3 annuities I am very well protected against inflation.

What am I doing with the last $75,000? This is my play money. I do some swing trading. Buy 3 or 4 stocks and hold them for 3 weeks to 6 months. If I am good at it, this $75,000 will grow nicely over time and will also provide additional inflation protection. If I suck at this, I will lose the $75,000 and I will never do this again. To this point, my $75,000 has grown to about $125,000. Can I be successful over several years? I don't yet know the answer to that. That is why I call this play money!

The point is that you can invest the $550,000 any way you want, I chose to do the above.


*****
What you don't get is that it will be 5 years before I convert some of the $550,000 plus growth into an additional immediate annuity to provide me the bump up in monthy payment to offset inflation. I will also be 5 years older so montly payments will be higher per dollar invested. I will only use a small portion of my portfolio to get the increase in monly payment that I will need. I will do this every 5 years.

The cash flow rate will be higher than the 7.3885% I currently receive and will be higher in each subsequent 5 year period.

Tony
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Re: Stocks in Retirement: why bother ?
Old 03-14-2005, 07:41 AM   #51
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Re: Stocks in Retirement: why bother ?

ed_teach and *****.............where are you now that
we really need you? Please come back.
Arrrrrrrrrrrrgh!

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Re: Stocks in Retirement: why bother ?
Old 03-14-2005, 07:43 AM   #52
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Re: Stocks in Retirement: why bother ?

LOL!
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Re: Stocks in Retirement: why bother ?
Old 03-14-2005, 08:10 AM   #53
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Re: Stocks in Retirement: why bother ?

Tony, at best, you are a naive "investor" who has eaten up what the annuity salesman told him and has no clue what the hell he is talking about. More likely, you are a paid shill who is intentionally glossing over unpleasant facts or simply lying. As a case in point, you claim you "paid no fees" in purchasing annuities. You sure did pay something, specifically a big, fat commission to the salesman. Since it was taken out of your end implicitly rather than implicitly, you are under the impression that you did not pay it, but trust me, you did pay it.

You also conveniently forget a big variable in your plan: the performance of your annuities. You do not know for certain that whatever insurance company/companies you bought annuities from will be around to actually pay your benefits. Think this is a joke? Some of the highest payouts are offered by some of the shakiest annuity companies.

I think you'll find that the posters on this board are pretty open-minded and interested in new ways of getting to where they want to be. However, most of us also take exception to being spammed. Drop the repetition and start actually conversing with us and you might get a warmer reception. Otherwise, kindly drop dead.
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Re: Stocks in Retirement: why bother ?
Old 03-17-2005, 05:31 PM   #54
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Re: Stocks in Retirement: why bother ?

Quote:
I own stocks, in particular, stocks that pay dividends.
Own stocks in companies that are likely to increase their dividends yearly or almost every year.
For example : *if I buy a stock for $100 that pays a 5% dividend, that's $5 / year return.
If the company raises it's dividend 50 cents per year for ten years, then the dividend increases to $10 total.
That's a 10% yield on my original investment. * *And if things go well for the company, the stock should be worth more than the $100 that I originally paid for it.

A nice deal if you ask me.
Of course, I don't have all my money in stocks as I believe in diversification.
Yield on the original investment is a meaningless piece of information. Sorry, but it is. Some of the writers at the Fool also make this mistake.

When deciding to retire one does not consider the value of your original investment, but only the present value of your individual holdings. Ditto yield. You look at the yield today on the value of your holdings today. You judge the income you will receive set against the portfolio value, not based on anything that happened before. Not only is a present yield on a past purchase price meaningless, but when one does not adjust the original purchase price for inflation since purchase, it is even less than worthless!

Petey

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Re: Stocks in Retirement: why bother ?
Old 03-17-2005, 05:40 PM   #55
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Re: Stocks in Retirement: why bother ?

Quote:
Tony, at best, you are a naive "investor" who has eaten up what the annuity salesman told him and has no clue what the hell he is talking about. *More likely, you are a paid shill who is intentionally glossing over unpleasant facts or simply lying. *As a case in point, you claim you "paid no fees" in purchasing annuities. *You sure did pay something, specifically a big, fat commission to the salesman. *Since it was taken out of your end implicitly rather than implicitly, you are under the impression that you did not pay it, but trust me, you did pay it.

You also conveniently forget a big variable in your plan: the performance of your annuities. *You do not know for certain that whatever insurance company/companies you bought annuities from will be around to actually pay your benefits. *Think this is a joke? *Some of the highest payouts are offered by some of the shakiest annuity companies.

I think you'll find that the posters on this board are pretty open-minded and interested in new ways of getting to where they want to be. *However, most of us also take exception to being spammed. *Drop the repetition and start actually conversing with us and you might get a warmer reception. *Otherwise, kindly drop dead.

The only pension plans offered in the UK then must be converted to an annuity later. The 3rd largest insurance company had to float a $3Bn bond issue because they lacked enough liquity after overinvesting in stocks in the tech peak. To make matters worse, the UK regulatory body after noticing many insurers falling below liquidity limits setup to protect investors from insurers continuing to manage and sell policies, decided to halve the liquidity limits these insurers were now required to meet. In other words, they moved the goalposts when the **** hit the fan!

This is the same type of pension/annuity managers who cut back their stock allocations in a "prudent" move after stocks had declined 40+%. Buffett noted in the late 70s that pension providers in the US also did the same thing and in the depth of the bear market there, let allocations to stocks fall to a record low approx 13% of the portfolio. As Buffett noted, future expected returns were excellent because yields were so high and prices were so cheap. The herd-like investors had run away but would return and when they did they pushed the market P/E up to 15 a decade later. A run-up the insititutional investors did not benefit from!

I would not trust my money to these guys even though I would get a tax break on gross salary invested directly rather than net salary I can manage myself. I feel safer investing less in a careful, diversified manner, paying attention to valuations and not running with the herd, than crossing my fingers & hoping, putting more money to work poorly.

Petey
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Re: Stocks in Retirement: why bother ?
Old 03-17-2005, 06:42 PM   #56
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Re: Stocks in Retirement: why bother ?


Peteyperson says:
"When deciding to retire one does not consider the value of your original investment, but only the present value of your individual holdings. Ditto yield. You look at the yield today on the value of your holdings today. You judge the income you will receive set against the portfolio value, not based on anything that happened before. Not only is a present yield on a past purchase price meaningless, but when one does not adjust the original purchase price for inflation since purchase, it is even less than worthless! "

Agreed, however I thought the point being made was that owning a dividend paying stock offered the potential for upside (increase in dividend/capital gains) vs a fixed income instrument where change in value factors may be more limited (eg change in issuer credit risk/change in interest rates). A view that I generally agree with - but both stocks and fixed return have a place in a portfolio, I believe.

Steve
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Re: Stocks in Retirement: why bother ?
Old 03-18-2005, 04:52 AM   #57
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Re: Stocks in Retirement: why bother ?

I pretty much agree with Steve and Petey. I guess I see
the chance of a stock ownership downside as not worth the potential upside.
I am quite intrerested in history, but don't necessarily
believe it will repeat; or if it does, perhaps not in time to
help me. I accept SWR theory but would rather accept less of a more certain income stream than bet on
dividends and the S&P, DJIA, etc. I will confess that
in my younger days I made small bets on individual stocks. Probably a wash overall. This does not impact
my thinking now. Once I got to FI, I wanted to be as
sure as possible I would never slide back into the workplace. I can cut my lifestyle. Returning to work
is not really a viable option.

JG
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Re: Stocks in Retirement: why bother ?
Old 03-18-2005, 06:07 AM   #58
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Re: Stocks in Retirement: why bother ?

Hmmm

Some random thoughts.

Going into 12 years of ER (1993, age 49) - looking at going toward 100% stocks. Caveat: core is a non cola pension plus early SS (was div stocks). NFB forum has convinced me to push the div/div growth stream harder.

Accumulation phase is different than distribution. I care much less about the value of my portfolio(market fluctuation) and a LOT more about the income stream it produces. "The other end of the stick" from someone saving for FIRE.

By the end of this year - potential income streams:

24% - pension
30% - SS
33% - IRA(switch from Lifestrategy to Target Retirement)
13% - dividend stocks

Since I'm a cheap SOB - some IRA will go to beef up dividend stocks and continue a series of partial Roth conversions - tax brackets willing.
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Re: Stocks in Retirement: why bother ?
Old 03-18-2005, 07:43 AM   #59
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Re: Stocks in Retirement: why bother ?

Quote:


The only pension plans offered in the UK then must be converted to an annuity later. The 3rd largest insurance company had to float a $3Bn bond issue because they lacked enough liquity after overinvesting in stocks in the tech peak. To make matters worse, the UK regulatory body after noticing many insurers falling below liquidity limits setup to protect investors from insurers continuing to manage and sell policies, decided to halve the liquidity limits these insurers were now required to meet. In other words, they moved the goalposts when the **** hit the fan!

This is the same type of pension/annuity managers who cut back their stock allocations in a "prudent" move after stocks had declined 40+%. Buffett noted in the late 70s that pension providers in the US also did the same thing and in the depth of the bear market there, let allocations to stocks fall to a record low approx 13% of the portfolio. As Buffett noted, future expected returns were excellent because yields were so high and prices were so cheap. The herd-like investors had run away but would return and when they did they pushed the market P/E up to 15 a decade later. A run-up the insititutional investors did not benefit from!

I would not trust my money to these guys even though I would get a tax break on gross salary invested directly rather than net salary I can manage myself. I feel safer investing less in a careful, diversified manner, paying attention to valuations and not running with the herd, than crossing my fingers & hoping, putting more money to work poorly.

Petey
Petey, very high allocations to stocks is a peculiar feature of UK insurers. In the US, the regulatory framework makes it virtually impossible for life insurers to hold much equity, so they are primarily invested in bonds (typically 90% or so of invested assets). This means that their balance sheets are more stable, but they are pretty far from the efficient frontier and tend to bump up their ROEs by being more leveraged.
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