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Old 03-01-2011, 06:19 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by ziggy29 View Post
Given that this is the "Early Retirement Forum," it seems logical to suspect that would be the default attitude, is it not? Not many people who love their jobs or are willing to keep them until full retirement age and beyond are going to be on an "Early Retirement Forum."

So you can waggle your finger at the "closed-mindedness" you seem to perceive here all you want, but remember that this is a very self-selecting sample of people who want as little to do with w*rking as possible. Expecting a different attitude might be unreasonable, IMO.
Early Retirement & Financial Independence forum supposedly. I'm here for the FI part, not so much the RE part.
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Old 03-01-2011, 06:43 PM   #42
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I'm sorry to hear that.
Yeah it was difficult, it happened when the small company I worked for was bought by a larger one and the founder was eased out. I wasn't the only one to leave and many went to work in a close by Government/academic lab so the core of our expertise was preserved. We saw the way our colleagues on the production floor were treated and basically lost all respect for the new management team. So there was a lot of Program Manager turnover. I know it's not right, but I enjoyed resigning half way through a $50M program and giving them a few headaches. The senior engineers/scientists/technical managers followed the technicians to where the work was interesting.The company took a 3 year hit and are doing less challenging work now, and making smaller profits according to people who still work there.

That whole experience really soured me and although I have a great academic job now it made me want to be financially independent so that I never have to be reliant on people I don't respect again. That includes financial advisers too.
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Old 03-01-2011, 06:55 PM   #43
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IMO we are more likely to have health issues that prevent us from working till 70 than an underperforming portfolio...

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I wonder what is a larger risk - a well designed portfolio under-performing in the long run or having health issues that will prevent you from working till 70.
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Old 03-01-2011, 08:15 PM   #44
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Another take on the idea of spreading one's earnings over more years by spreading one's spending (usually described as fabulous vacations) over more years, leaving a shorter full-time retirement at the end. If you love your job, if you would rather take time off a few weeks at a time instead of years at a time, if you have nothing in particular you'd rather be doing if you had all the time you wanted and if you believe that you can absolutely count on the future to go just like you planned it, then maybe you will enjoy this plan. I think I prefer a plan that can accommodate unexpected changes more easily. It's all in the gray area in the middle anyway.

If I live as cheaply as possible - and save 90+% of my income I can retire sooner. But this is too austere for me. If I save nothing for retirement and enjoy all of my income, I cannot retire but I maximize my current spending. This is optimizing something I don't care as much about at the expense of retirement free time that I do care about. So I am going to have to make a plan somewhere in the middle of these extremes.

My concern with the article is that there is too great a chance of the unexpected derailing that plan. Loss of job, economy problems, health issues, divorce, any number of things could leave me high and dry with little savings, few options and not get the full benefits that the "plan" promised, but only when it works out. On the other hand, if I save a reasonable amount I will have resources and options when I am old enough to retire early. I can always choose to keep working (and take as many of those fabulous cruise vacations as I want) if I have options. I don't have to be austere to make this work, in fact I can still take some fabulous vacations that don't use perhaps quite as much money all along the way, or whatever else I want to spend. I get to make the choices, not get forced into them because I spent all my resources earlier and have none left.

Currently my portfolio is on track to earn more than I contribute, and it will keep outpacing me for many years. I will have more to spend (a lot more) if I just wait a little while and I am happy with that small sacrifice now (and it is pretty small) for a big gain later. Maybe if I had to make a big, big sacrifice I wouldn't be as happy with the tradeoff, but that's the wonderful part. Everyone can decide how much to save now. The article's author can spend current resources and hope the world works the way they count on until age 70 if they want. It's not my choice.
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Old 03-01-2011, 08:27 PM   #45
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I see some wisdom in that. In 2007, I had open heart surgery to correct a congenitally deformed aortic valve that never caused the first symptom but caused an aneurysm that was going to kill me if I didn't get it fixed. At 58, I decided work would survive if I didn't put in 50 hour weeks. 2 or 3 days a week, I started coming in around 9:30 after riding my road bike 25 miles. Life went on.

Next year, after I turn 62 toward the end of this year, I'm not working full time any more. They can take it or leave it, but I'm going to work about half time. I'm a trial lawyer and I can switch over to being a mediator and maybe do a trial or two a year. I'm willing to take a lot less money, but if I can make $50,000 or so a year working 25 or so weeks a year, I might do that until I'm 70. I don't see anything wrong with that kind of plan. If I don't like it, I have enough savings to outright quit work. If I do like the part time thing, and if anyone will actually pay me to do it, working half time doesn't sound all that bad.

Having said all that, I do tend to think that once I am away from my profession for a month or so, I won't want to go back. But, hey, if someone wants to pay me $350 an hour to try to mediate silly disputes, why not?
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Old 03-01-2011, 08:46 PM   #46
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I don't see anything wrong with that kind of plan.
No, it sounds like you're in the catbird seat. This is a catbird:
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Old 03-02-2011, 12:30 AM   #47
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That article also came up over on my forums. The conclusion was essentially: anything to jump start the economy, eh? Stop saving and spend-spend-spend. Consumerism needs buy-ins; otherwise it doesn't work. In particular, people (boomers?) are beginning to realize that they should have saved far more than the 10-15% they have(n't) been saving, because they can't keep relying on those fictitious 10% annual returns that all the "how you to can become a millionaire"-gurus promote.

In my completely objective and unbiased opinion, working until you're 70 in return for two weeks on a cruise ship is a complete joke. Who's hiring 70 year olds these days other than Walmart? This may work for some academics or top level level managers, but I bet the majority will be out up luck. If anything, save more, not less. If you decide you don't like work when you're XX years old and FI, at least you'll have the option. I don't think any number of bedrooms or safari trips can adequately substitute from the feeling of financial independence.
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Old 03-02-2011, 12:38 AM   #48
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In fact I'd wager that many (if not most) people who desperately want out of their j*bs are looking more to escape the corporate BS that accompanies the work than are escaping the actual work itself.
This is why I bailed, it wasn't the work, it was the other stuff.
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Old 03-02-2011, 01:06 AM   #49
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...it wasn't the work, it was the other stuff.
Ditto for DW and me.

Anyways, this is yet another article trying to convince us that retiring and preparing for retirement is so 20th century. My FIL never saved much money because he was convinced he would never retire. Of course things didn't work out as planned. Here he is now, 63, jobless for the past 3 years, no savings, no health insurance and overdue bills as far as the eyes can see. I am sure that, right about now, he would love to get back the money he spent on "cruises and other indulgences" and not have to worry about how he's gonna keep a roof over his head.
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Old 03-02-2011, 01:11 AM   #50
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70? that is crazy. I retired after 10 years of work at ripe age of 32 to stay at home with my kids. My Hubby is still chugging but the plan is to get him out before 45. I work a lot but not for money and I do mostly what I want to do and what needs to be done for my family (My top priority in life as it stands currently). Happiness does not equate to how much money you have and how much you are consuming, its comes from inside.. so to each his/her own ... nothing against bigger houses and long cruises ... but that is not what will get you inner peace and happiness ..... I think proper balance and prioritization of what you want in Life is the key.
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Old 03-02-2011, 06:43 AM   #51
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... the powerful financial upside of working longer. Among other things:

• Retiring at 70 rather than 62 means you have to support yourself without a paycheck for eight fewer years. That means that, for same size nest egg, you get more income.
Right. So you get to be 70 with a nice income, rather than 62 with a slightly less nice income. Does anyone here know a single 70-year-old (who is not on the poverty line) who wouldn't trade with a 62-year-old making 3/4 as much?

Retiring at 62 means that you have 8 years more to live the way you want, and those 8 are not "out of 62" or "out of 70" or "out of 86", they are out of the 20-24 years which on average you have left, before you either die or or don't care any more. That's a third of your frickin' life spent sat in the corner of the office, being "the geezer who won't retire" from 9-5, 49-50 weeks a year. Great.

Personally, I intend to take this reasoning a step further. Taking "going ga ga time" to be age 85, I'm going to work on the basis that the value of a year is not constant, but instead that it's higher the younger you still are. Let's take a nice simple linear approach and say that at age N, the value of a year is (85-N). So at 62, a year is worth 23; at 70, it's worth 15. Retiring at 62, you have 276 points in front of you; at 70, that's down to 120, which is 57% less (yes, I know the numbers are arbitrary).

Oh, and they forgot one other thing:
Quote:
•You have eight more years to save and your savings have eight more years to grow.
The eight years of working will probably knock two or three years off your life expectancy, too. So your savings will have to last you even less time. Woo-hoo.
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Old 03-02-2011, 07:38 AM   #52
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There is no way I am planning to w*rk until I am 70. I've no intention of working past 50 unless at the point of a financial gun (and hope to go sooner).

There are just so many things wrong with planning to work that long (and spending accordingly);

1. can you physically do the job?
2. can you mentally do the job (and keep your skills current)?
3. will you still be able to get a job at that age?
4. if you lose your job or change your mind, will you have enough savings to retire sooner?
5. will you still be able to do all the things you want to do in retirement at that age?

No thanks. I'll stick with plan A and aim to FIRE in a year or two.
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Old 03-02-2011, 07:54 AM   #53
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Article's premise is a joke, and will only add fuel to the fire of those who see no reason to LBYM. Besides the possible health issues at an older age, how about a more likely scenario: losing a job and then trying to find another one (because you never saved $$ before then) at age 55+.
Everything in moderation applies to saving/spending, but then again I'm preaching to the choir.
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Old 03-02-2011, 08:01 AM   #54
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As is the case in many of these articles, the real fun is in the comments section. 660 and counting, and it looks to me like 90% or more aren't all that complimentary...
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Old 03-02-2011, 08:39 AM   #55
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Right. So you get to be 70 with a nice income, rather than 62 with a slightly less nice income. Does anyone here know a single 70-year-old (who is not on the poverty line) who wouldn't trade with a 62-year-old making 3/4 as much?

Retiring at 62 means that you have 8 years more to live the way you want, and those 8 are not "out of 62" or "out of 70" or "out of 86", they are out of the 20-24 years which on average you have left, before you either die or or don't care any more. That's a third of your frickin' life spent sat in the corner of the office, being "the geezer who won't retire" from 9-5, 49-50 weeks a year. Great.

Personally, I intend to take this reasoning a step further. Taking "going ga ga time" to be age 85, I'm going to work on the basis that the value of a year is not constant, but instead that it's higher the younger you still are. Let's take a nice simple linear approach and say that at age N, the value of a year is (85-N). So at 62, a year is worth 23; at 70, it's worth 15. Retiring at 62, you have 276 points in front of you; at 70, that's down to 120, which is 57% less (yes, I know the numbers are arbitrary).

Oh, and they forgot one other thing:

The eight years of working will probably knock two or three years off your life expectancy, too. So your savings will have to last you even less time. Woo-hoo.
I've always used the same equation for every hour I billed past 40 hours a week in private practice (law). Each extra billable hour per day was worth double to me, with those on the weekend worth triple. As such, I never understood the desire of many associates to hit 2,400+ hours to get the biggest bonus. The firm's costs and profits are covered once you hit around 1,800 (if not less than that), so every hour you bill above that only makes more profit for the firm, with your share of that profit shrinking for every additional hour you bill. Personally, I thought that having a life outside work was worth sacrificing the possibility of $15-20k more a year (it was only a possibility because if you were only a few hours short, the firm would screw you out of your bonus and keep ALL of the money).
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pablum to console the masses
Old 03-02-2011, 10:03 AM   #56
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pablum to console the masses

Well said, FD. This article is nothing but pablum to console the masses who fail to live within their means. ER is of course one goal, but FI is the primary goal - the ability to fund all of your necessities without relying on a job. One you achieve FI, you can spend any additional income to your hearts content, if you choose. The vast majority of people lack the discipline to ever come close to FI, let alone ER.


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Ditto for DW and me.

Anyways, this is yet another article trying to convince us that retiring and preparing for retirement is so 20th century. My FIL never saved much money because he was convinced he would never retire. Of course things didn't work out as planned. Here he is now, 63, jobless for the past 3 years, no savings, no health insurance and overdue bills as far as the eyes can see. I am sure that, right about now, he would love to get back the money he spent on "cruises and other indulgences" and not have to worry about how he's gonna keep a roof over his head.
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Old 03-02-2011, 10:34 AM   #57
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Taking "going ga ga time" to be age 85, I'm going to work on the basis that the value of a year is not constant, but instead that it's higher the younger you still are. Let's take a nice simple linear approach and say that at age N, the value of a year is (85-N). So at 62, a year is worth 23; at 70, it's worth 15. Retiring at 62, you have 276 points in front of you; at 70, that's down to 120, which is 57% less (yes, I know the numbers are arbitrary).
I never realized life was so much like ... a tax depreciation table.
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Old 03-02-2011, 10:40 AM   #58
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I left a job because I realized the manager who was implementing Six Sigma didn't actually understand standard deviation. He went to LSS after an unsuccessful implementation of Kaizen which was done when quality went to hell after a "downsizing" and all the most experienced (and highest paid) technicians and lab staff were laid off. We'd been doing Kaizen and LSS for 20 years, but calling it SOP
Boy that is some Mega Cr*p BS I do not miss!
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Old 03-02-2011, 10:40 AM   #59
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I never realized life was so much like ... a tax depreciation table.
It is indeed. You start to realize this when you hit your mid-to-late-30s. Physical capabilities start to deteriorate (unless you work hard to maintain them in the gym, and even then it's easy to get injured).

As the article points out, "Save like you'll be on your own tomorrow. Live each day like it could be your last."
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Old 03-02-2011, 11:22 AM   #60
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Soooooo...... If I never retire I can spend all my money now!
BBL, going shopping!
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