Time to buy REITS?

The Vanguard REIT Index fell another 4.08% today
while the bond funds rose. That is 8.66% off the
peak YTD on 4/1. The fact that REITs fell while
bonds rose shoots down my comment that they
are trading like long term bonds. Something else
is going on. It just proves that REITS are indeed
a different animal. Keep alert .... the time to
jump in may soon be upon us.

Cheers,

Charlie (aka Chuck-Lyn)
 
Yep, its really taking some shots.

I'm still up 2% from where I bought in.

Was thinking about adding some to my taxable portfolio to pick up a little more dividend yield.
 
I had sold off most of my REITS due to valuation...the latest carnage has gotten me interested in a few of my faves. I'm not 100% sold that higher rates/inflation are right around the corner.
 
Hey Charlie,

Thanks for the heads-up! Any idea what's driving this? At what point are you planning to pull the trigger?
 
Bob, I really have no idea whats happening. At
first I thought it was reaction to the job growth
numbers and perception of impending interest
rate rise. However today REITS took a 4.08%
hit while long term bonds rose. Go figure.
I plan to take a 1/3 position if/when the NAV
drops to $15.28 . This is 10% off the 52 week
high of $16.98. If/when the NAV drops to $14.43
I will add another 1/3. Then I will wait until
evidence of recovery starting to add the final 1/3.
If none of this comes to pass, I will continue "value averaging" at $5k per quarter. They say it is
not wise to try to "catch a falling knife", but I feel
comfortable with this strategy. The dividend will
keep REITS from falling too far.

Cheers,

Charlie
 
Speculation? - Mr Market may be repricing REITs relative to 'other' stocks/bonds due to the new div. tax rules. Just a two cent guess.
 
Just to point out, vanguard REIT is still almost over where it was on 1/1/2004, where I considered it significantly overvalued...its still up over 35% vs 1/1/2003.

I'm reminded of a couple of purchases I made in 2000 when the nasdaq had dropped to 3000 and later to 2000, both price points I bought in at and what I thought at the time to be considerable bargains.

Capital losses are good things when its tax time, but I'd rather have the money ;)

The dividend yield is all over the place, but its a good one. Note that you cant sell the shares within a year without paying a 1% back end load.

I might wait another 15% minimum before buying.
 
Today, REITs are on the way back up again.
HCP up 4.59% right now.
EOP up 1.29%
FRT up 1.74%
ASN up 2.99%
ANH up 0.86%
NNN up 1.79% all as of 2:56pm 4/7/04
Motley fool says 'stay the course' , don't panic.
 
Investors in the Vanguard REIT Index need 'a strong stomach and good memory' per John J. Brennan.

I'm sitting here reading the Vanguard REIT Index fund report's shareholder letter. After detailing the good news, Mr Brennan reminds us of the -17.3% in 99 and closes with the strong stomach/good memory reminder.
 
No need for a strong stomach! - It's just an asset class - They are not going to be all winners.

If you have a plan, you don't have to watch, worry and then wonder if you should buy or sell.

You just go fishing! :D
 
I suspect that might have been Brennan's point - but being PC - he couldn't say:"Listen you knotheads(shareholders) rebalance when your asset class gets too high - and/or too low to hold the % asset classes in your overall portfolio in their preselected range.
 
Cut-Throat, unclemick,

Re-balancing is one thing, getting into an asset
class is another. I think it would be stupid to
jump into a new asset class like REITS all at
once when there is ample evidence that they
are overvalued. Neither Bernstein nor Bogle
advocate plunging in all at once. I hope you
are not suggesting the contrary. At my age, 70,
I can't afford the luxury of being wrong like you
whipper snappers can.

Cheers,

Charlie
 
Charlie,

Most of the books I have read suggest putting 50% in an asset class now and then 50% in 6 months. And hope that the asset class plunges after the first 50%.

Most all agree that you should be fully invested within a year. How you get there is up to you. DCA, Value Average, or the above method.

But the reality of the situation is that 10 years down the road, it won't probably make a large difference of which method you chose, as long as you invested.

And yes, some of your asset classes are going to be losers. And maybe you don't want to be in REITs anyway. Berstein says that you really only need to be in 4 asset classes to be a successful investor and Bonds are 1 of them.

But, the whole point of this is not to have to fret and sleep well at night. - I'm sleeping well and hope you will also! :)
 
. . . Re-balancing is one thing, getting into an asset class is another.  I think it would be stupid to jump into a new asset class like REITS all at once when there is ample evidence that they
are overvalued.  Neither Bernstein nor Bogle advocate plunging in all at once.  I hope you are not suggesting the contrary.  At my age, 70, I can't afford the luxury of being wrong like you whipper snappers can.

Actually, it depends a lot on where you are moving the money from. If you are talking about moving money from cash to REITs, your odds are better to do it as an immediate lump sum. If you are taking the money out of other investments, it depends on how much the other investments will rise or fall while you hold and try to time the market.
 
If you are talking about moving money from cash to REITs, your odds are better to do it as an immediate lump sum.
Historically, that has been true for US stocks, but is there any evidence that's also true for REITs?

The underlying value for real estate is rental income. Most REITs own commercial real estate. My impression of the commercial market is oversupply and declining rents. I can't imagine why anybody would want to jump into this market anytime soon, unless they know something about increasing rental demand on the horizon.

The other significant difference between REITs and stocks is leverage. How many banks would loan you 90% of the value of your company? REITs should be *very* sensitive to interest rate changes.
 
Historically, that has been true for US stocks, but is there any evidence that's also true for REITs?
I think so. The underlying reason why your odds are better for a lump sum movement from cast to stocks is that stocks outperform cash more times than not. I've seen similar comparisons between REITs and cash. Although the odds may not be as good as they are with stocks, they still are with the investor that moves the money as a lump sum from cash to REITs.

Of course you can play the odds and still lose. :)
 
Somewhere on gummy's website he shows that
plunging into a risky asset class "wins" 60-70%
over DCA, as best I recall. However, I got the
impression from an AAII journal that studied
this back in the late 80's, that the extra return
is not large on average. To me, at 70, it is far
better to give up the marginal extra return than
run the risk of jumping in at the market peak. We
saw the wisdom of this in the recent market crash
in 2000, 2001 and 2002. That is why I am value
averaging into REITs (and TIPS as well) over the
next 3 years. If either takes a dive sooner I will
be more aggressive as I posted earlier in this
thread. BTW, Bernstein suggests 2-3 years and
Bogle recommends "several quarters" as I recall.
IMHO, their advice trumps anything else I have
heard so far, but I value your opinions as well.

Cheers,

Charlie
 
DCA?
http://www.moneychimp.com/features/dollar_cost.htm
"Does Dollar Cost Averaging Work?
Dollar cost averaging means investing a fixed amount at fixed intervals of time. That's a sensible approach, for example, if it means committing yourself to investing a fixed amount of your salary every month toward your retirement.
However, some people also think you should dollar cost average a lump sum. For example, if you had $12,000 that you wanted to invest in a stock index fund, they would tell you to invest $1000 per month over a year, rather than investing the whole amount immediately. The rationale is that market volatility should then work in your favor, because you will automatically be purchasing more shares when the price is low, and fewer shares when the price is high.
As appealing as that theory is, its advantage looks like a myth, as this calculator shows. It uses market data to let you compare dollar cost averaging with lump sum investing for the start date you specify.
. . . (A calculator is included with this link)
Each strategy wins at least some of the time, but after a few runs you'll see that DCA is the statistical "dog", losing about two times out of three.
Of course, dollar cost averaging will win if your start date falls right before a dramatic crash (like October 1987) or at the start of an overall 12 month slump (like most of 2000). But unless you can predict these downturns ahead of time, you have no scientific reason to believe that dollar cost averaging will give you an advantage.
So why do so many people persist in believing that this old dog really knows how to hunt? Maybe because it has a psychological appeal: if the market dips, people will be happy because DCA will be saving them money; and if the market goes up, people will be happy regardless. "

https://customers.directadvice.com/adviceforum/newsletter/fullarticle/ar mstrong_LumpSumJumpInNow.htm
" Lump Sum? Jump In Now.
By Frank C. Armstrong, CFP
Last in a series
Congratulations! You won the lottery, inherited some money from a distant relative, sold your company or rolled your pension into your IRA. You have designed an asset allocation plan that meets your needs and have selected the funds you want to invest in.
But just how should you invest that large sum? Should you invest it all in one fell swoop? Or should dollar cost averaging be part of your strategy - investing your money in small bits and pieces over time?
In this case, don’t use dollar cost averaging. While it works well in many circumstances, as we’ve pointed out during the past couple weeks, it actually works against you when you have a large lump sum to invest. Here’s why.
Looking ahead
The market’s upward bias is so strong that it’s unlikely that market prices will be more favorable at some future point than they are today. No matter how you measure it, the market has more good periods than bad ones, and the good periods are better than the bad periods are bad."

This article goes on to show a table of S&P500 performance since 1926 and discusses the implications of using DCA.

"Based on past history, and depending on the period we selected, we would have been right between 62% and 90% of the time had we invested the entire sum immediately rather than waiting until the end of the period to invest part or all of it.
Stalling for time
It may feel good (or more prudent) to delay making the commitment with all or part of your lump sum in hopes that tomorrow’s prices will be more attractive than today’s. Especially in unsettled times, the temptation to "wait and see what happens" or other excuses to delay making a commitment to the market can be overwhelming.
But these delaying tactics are nothing more than thinly disguised attempts to time the market. And delaying investing like that actually decreases your chances of success. Dollar cost averaging with a lump sum is an attempt to "split the baby," and that has historically been a losing strategy. . ."
 
and some more DCA

The article below is less tactful in it's criticism of DCA when lump sums are available.
http://www.efmoody.com/planning/dollarcost.html
". . .If you have money to invest as a lump sum, DCA produces a LOWER return than investing the money all at once. Two researchers (Williams and Bacon) have discounted dollar cost averaging by statistically showing that putting all the funds in at one time outproduces dollar cost averaging by two to one. They invested a theoretical sum in 90 day T-bills and moved into the S&P 500 over a year's period. They compared these results with investing all the funds at once- starting with different periods from 1926 to 1991. . ."
==================================================================

http://www.stockfirst.com/strategies/Dollar_Cost_Avg.htm
"Dollar Cost Averaging :
Making a Little Go a Long Way
. . . As previously noted, dollar cost averaging is probably best suited to the investor who is starting to build a portfolio and does not have sufficient funds to purchase a meaningful number of shares in several companies. . .
As with any other aspect of investing, there are no guarantees that this will produce cost benefits. Some studies that have been done on simple investment plans have not provided conclusive evidence and there are too many variables to simplify any in-depth analysis. However, there is evidence that for the investor that has the capital to make a significant one time investment in a company, there may be no benefit to dollar cost average the investment. However, for the small investor, the discipline demanded by dollar cost averaging may be the greatest benefit. And as in other aspects of life, discipline is essential for good behavior!"
=================================================================
What DCA is really good for is reducing stress of needing to make a decision every paycheck and forcing a discipline to your investing. This article states that very well.
http://www.2globalinvest.com/Toolbox/dollar.htm
"Dollar-Cost Averaging
Investors who do not wish to be stressed by market volatility adopt the dollar-cost averaging method for secured long term investment planning. . .
By adopting this method, one will be less tempted to make decisions based on short-term phenomena. . .
Instead of trying to time the market in response to greed or fear, the two most common emotional influences; you invest in an installment plan knowing that your money will grow over the long term.
 
SG,

I believe I conceded the point that plunging
"wins" 60-70%. Will you grant me the point
that for some old pharts like myself it is perhaps
better to play it safe? I define playing it safe as
minimizing the risk of jumping in at a market peak.
You may thump me with your approach most of
the time, but I will try to refrain from smirking
the other 30-40%. The last few trading days
have demonstrated that REITS are in dangerous
territory, having tanked 8.9% from the market
peak of $16.98 NAV on 4/1. If I had plunged
my desired allocation of $61k when I first started
this thread, I would be down about $5k right
now.

Thank you, but no thanks!

Charlie
 
Charlie,

Either you believe what you read in 4 pillars or you don't. It's your choice. I happen to believe it. I happen to believe that nobody can time the market consistently, not even Wabmester!

You only timed the REIT Fund correctly, if you buy now. If it gains 12% next week and you didn't buy, then you didn't time it correctly. Investing in hindsight is always 20/20.

Your initial question implied that someone knew when to buy REITs. My answer is no one knows! So based on that do whatever makes you comfortable.
 
Hi Chuck-Lyn:

I am in total agreement with you on not wanting to dive headlong into Reits, (Or any other asset class that has reached the nose bleed territory). They took another hit today, and I still believe they are way too high.
You've got the right idea, by just establishing a small position now, and adding to that as the situation dictates.
Reits up to about 15 years ago were not being recommended by many main stream investors. (planners, etc.). Because of the large amount of money being placed in and out of reits, they have really been much more volatile than they used to be.
In any case, i am of your generation, and taking a large hit on a lump sum, is not something that you or I should be doing.
Reits about 6 years ago had -18 and -5 back to back years. (I am with Vanguard Reit index). They have come so far since then, that I believe it is very likely to have a repeat performance real soon.
Keep your powder dry, and good luck.
 
There is the part of it that says as long as you're not selling, the price isnt that relevant...if you're just looking for the dividend and some diversity...

Chuck...I reply to myself all the time...in fact, some of the nicest conversations I've had in my life were with myself :eek:
 
Cut,

The great guru Bernstiin himself recommended
value averaging over a 2-3 year time frame.

Get out your copy of "4 Pillars...." and read
what it says on page 285. If you consider
DCA or Value Averaging to be market timing,
then so be it. I just think it is prudent.

I grow weary of this discussion.

Cheers,

Charlie
 
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