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Old 11-15-2013, 12:32 AM   #61
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I must be going back and forth with brokers trying to defend their jobs. We'll let everyone else reading this thread let the facts speak for themselves. I've already posted the dividend and performance chart comparing ETF to actively managed fund. The last issue that was raised was expense ratio. Here we go. Case closed...

VTV expense ratio = 0.10
VWNFX expense ratio = 0.35

Most of the time, ETFs trade with negligible premiums or discounts. Sorry. No Perry Mason moment. Nice try.

Also VWNFX has an R-squared rating of 98.31 over the last 5 years. Anything in the 90's is proof that all they are doing is closely copying their benchmark index -- for .25% MORE per year! Sorry to burst everyone's bubble.
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Old 11-15-2013, 05:45 AM   #62
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ETF,
You're coming back for more?
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Originally Posted by ETFs_Rule View Post
I must be going back and forth with brokers trying to defend their jobs.
Back there again?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ETFs_Rule View Post
We'll let everyone else reading this thread let the facts speak for themselves.
Here are numbers for the time period you selected (April 30, 2007 through present):
Value of $10K invested on April 30, 2007:

Large Value Index: $11,944 (This is the index, not something in which people can invest)
Vanguard Value ETF $12,163
Vanguard Windsor II : $12,491

Note: I selected the "Investor" class of Windsor II, the Admiral class would have outperformed your ETF by a higher margin.

I'm not a fan of actively managed ETFs, and Windsor II surely lagged i's index over some periods. But not all periods, and not the one you chose (for whatever reason).
This would be a good point for you to change the subject. If you know any others.
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Old 11-15-2013, 07:52 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by ETFs_Rule View Post
I must be going back and forth with brokers trying to defend their jobs. We'll let everyone else reading this thread let the facts speak for themselves. I've already posted the dividend and performance chart comparing ETF to actively managed fund. The last issue that was raised was expense ratio. Here we go. Case closed...

VTV expense ratio = 0.10
VWNFX expense ratio = 0.35

Most of the time, ETFs trade with negligible premiums or discounts. Sorry. No Perry Mason moment. Nice try.

Also VWNFX has an R-squared rating of 98.31 over the last 5 years. Anything in the 90's is proof that all they are doing is closely copying their benchmark index -- for .25% MORE per year! Sorry to burst everyone's bubble.
I am not a broker, but I won't resort to throwing unfounded labels at you.

I've had two free VFP's done in 8 years, and I've detailed my thoughts on the strengths and weaknesses of the exercise elsewhere. Neither recommended active funds, and in fact they consistently recommended that I sell off the few active funds I held/hold - but they don't push at all, they leave it to the customer to decide. Furthermore, the first time I had non-Vanguard MFs and they did not suggest I sell those because they fit Vanguards IP - frankly I was surprised.

Most members here prefer passive/index funds, you're preaching to the choir in that respect, something you'd know if you actually read a few posts before you preach.

We could have a meaningful discussion if you'd support all your broad allegations with specific examples. Until then...best of luck.
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Old 11-15-2013, 08:08 AM   #64
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[QUOTE=Midpack;1379925.

Most members here prefer passive/index funds, you're preaching to the choir in that respect, something you'd know if you actually read a few posts before you preach.[/QUOTE]

Have to admit there's irony in the last string of posts, which argue about which low cost investment approach is best. Reminds me of the the saying, 'We're in violent agreement."
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Old 11-15-2013, 09:59 AM   #65
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Beware of anyone who offers "free" financial planning advice. Free = non-fiduciary. Non-fiduciary means that they don't legally work for you. They are acting in the capacity of salesmen. You want fiduciary advice.

Hopefully that's a PASSIVELY managed mutual fund! AKA an "index fund", AKA an ETF.
So DFA qualifies?
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Old 11-15-2013, 10:04 AM   #66
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The only way to totally eliminate conflict of interest is to work with a fee-only RIA.
Please provide your definition of "fee-only" RIA.
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Old 11-15-2013, 03:53 PM   #67
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Please provide your definition of "fee-only" RIA.
Fee-only means that they cannot earn money from any source other than you. No commissions. When there are no commissions you don't have to worry about whether or not the recommendation they make are really in your best interests or not even though they are required to do so under their fiduciary duty.

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you're preaching to the choir in that respect, something you'd know if you actually read a few posts before you preach
Wohhh trigger! Not everyone if you had taken the time read all of the posts in this thread.
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Old 11-15-2013, 06:27 PM   #68
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Just had my VG FP done, and was very pleased with the results and guidance. However, i will drill down to the not so pleasant experience i'm having consolidating:

1) very good advice (IMO) regarding AA and funds, nothing mentioned regarding actively managed funds; FP's (i spoke to 3) were extremely helpful, answered all questions
2) am consolidating roth, ira and an employer retirement account to VG
3) dealt with one (excellent!) VG rep who effortlessly guided the transfer of my roth and ira to VG...HOWEVER (yes, i'm shouting)
4) for some asinine reason, VG bifurcates personal (roth, ira) and employer account service...so
5) i'm having to deal with two different entities within VG to consolidate my accounts to them
6) the excellent rep who handled my roth/ira transfer wasn't even able to see my employer retirement accounts on his screen
7) next, for some reason they are unable to activate my employer account at VG
8) meanwhile i have funds being transferred to VG from my current vendor (TIAA CREF) with no account to place them into...
9) every time i call the employer account service number at VG i talk to a different person in what appears to be a call center. this is "concierge service"?

If this is not resolved by next week I will give serious thought with moving everything to fidelity...
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Old 11-15-2013, 06:47 PM   #69
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Re: moving everything to fidelity ...

I just want to mention that Fidelity may be no better. Just one anecdote: I have a Fidelity 401(k) and had some difficulty opening an inherited IRA at Fidelity (deceased had their IRA at Fidelity). The left-hand didn't know what the right-hand had done and vice versa. It took 3 phone calls to get things sort of straightened out.
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Old 11-15-2013, 07:46 PM   #70
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We started with VG by moving about $350k of my wife's to VG; not enough to classify as a Voyager, but I outlined all our assets and indicated in a year I wanted to begin moving more assets over. They took a listing of all our assets, with my input about allocation, etc, and devised an overall plan, even for the nonVG assets, and didn't charge for the service. Basically, the one time service offered to Voyager clients. I spoke to the adviser several times with concerns, and she made alterations to suit my wishes. Again, not charged. At this point, to get further free services, I would have to be a flagship member. I later transferred another $375k of my funds over to VG. When the bond situation changes I'll transfer another $250k+. Even though DW and I have two separate accounts they've indicated We would qualify for flagship privileges ( the total balance will be over $1m) The differences are listed online I think VG will originally recommend a core portfolio of passive funds, unless the member indicates a need/desire for something more/different. I think the member will have to start the conversation in those directions. They pretty much expect their members to be self thinkers who have an idea of what they want. They're more than wiling to discuss and recommend managed and non-core funds if there is an interest. Just a sense I have gotten from working with them. The only additional suggestions they made to me involved international exposure. They talked about tax efficiency, which was figured into the original plan. I've been pleased.
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Old 11-16-2013, 07:58 AM   #71
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You're preaching to the choir in that respect, something you'd know if you actually read a few posts before you preach.
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Originally Posted by ETFs_Rule View Post
Wohhh trigger! Not everyone if you had taken the time read all of the posts in this thread.
Wohhh trigger, really? I was referring to the content of the forum, not just this thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Midpack
We could have a meaningful discussion if you'd support all your broad allegations with specific examples. Until then...best of luck.
We're still waiting for you to stand behind all you've alleged, not just what works for you moment to moment.
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Old 11-16-2013, 09:08 AM   #72
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Wow, another candidate for Dale Carnegie, huh boys?
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Old 11-16-2013, 10:04 AM   #73
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Wow, another candidate for Dale Carnegie, huh boys?
And now 31 posts saying the same thing. Maybe he could introduce himself in the Hi, I Am forum and tell us a little something about himself, because I think we already get it that he thinks ETFs are the bees knees for everyone all the time.
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Old 11-16-2013, 01:38 PM   #74
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Just had my VG FP done, and was very pleased with the results and guidance. However, i will drill down to the not so pleasant experience i'm having consolidating:

1) very good advice (IMO) regarding AA and funds, nothing mentioned regarding actively managed funds; FP's (i spoke to 3) were extremely helpful, answered all questions
2) am consolidating roth, ira and an employer retirement account to VG
3) dealt with one (excellent!) VG rep who effortlessly guided the transfer of my roth and ira to VG...HOWEVER (yes, i'm shouting)
4) for some asinine reason, VG bifurcates personal (roth, ira) and employer account service...so
5) i'm having to deal with two different entities within VG to consolidate my accounts to them
6) the excellent rep who handled my roth/ira transfer wasn't even able to see my employer retirement accounts on his screen
7) next, for some reason they are unable to activate my employer account at VG
8) meanwhile i have funds being transferred to VG from my current vendor (TIAA CREF) with no account to place them into...
9) every time i call the employer account service number at VG i talk to a different person in what appears to be a call center. this is "concierge service"?

If this is not resolved by next week I will give serious thought with moving everything to fidelity...
Frankly, what you are experiencing with VG's administrative quagmire is what drove me to consolidate most of our assets at Fidelity where we have Private Client status. With Fidelity,I talk with the same CFP and her right hand only but can access other Private Client reps if I need something simple and quick.
We were just below the Flagship status when VG again pulled out their Administrative cudgel and mandated separate hoops to solve a simple issue.
Gave up and moved 70% to Fidelity--didn't hurt that Fidelity offered some cash incentive.
If you do decide to move to Fidelity, ask for what incentives are available, they have FF miles as well as an assortment of other goodies, especially for sizeable accounts.
Good Luck
Nwsteve
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Old 11-16-2013, 03:42 PM   #75
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Frankly, what you are experiencing with VG's administrative quagmire is what drove me to consolidate most of our assets at Fidelity where we have Private Client status. With Fidelity,I talk with the same CFP and her right hand only but can access other Private Client reps if I need something simple and quick.
We were just below the Flagship status when VG again pulled out their Administrative cudgel and mandated separate hoops to solve a simple issue.
Gave up and moved 70% to Fidelity--didn't hurt that Fidelity offered some cash incentive.
If you do decide to move to Fidelity, ask for what incentives are available, they have FF miles as well as an assortment of other goodies, especially for sizeable accounts.
Good Luck
Nwsteve
Oh my, cash incentive. That's my kind of talk. How are their fees overall as compared to VG? Think I'll threaten VG with this when I talk to them on Monday. It's a hassle moving to VG, but no more so doing it again to Fidelity if I have to.
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Old 11-16-2013, 04:31 PM   #76
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FYI on moving everything to Fidelity:

You do have different people and departments at VG that make it difficult to move everything to VG. ........you can have and I've had the same problems at Fidelity.

I gave Fido all my banking ftranfer info for my IRA and and when i wanted to have some funds wired from my brokerage account they needed all the same info.....in writing.... that I had just given them a couple of months ago.....why? different account, different person. And, when I wanted a money transfer to pay taxes, they wouldn't release the money without a reason.....my money my business. Why? they were afraid I was moving it to another financial company.

Frankly, for many reasons, some good, some not, both VG and fido make it difficult to do busiess I''m high value client with both and will remain that way. If I had to choose one it would be VG......lower cost, more ETF funds and less trying to sell me high cost products.

Now, both fido and VG are better than others but I don't think, overall, you'll have fewer problems, better options or less costs with fido than VG. Maybe, some of us have better VG or fido reps......that probably is the reason some of us prefer one or the other.

finally, I like being affiliated with bogleheads......that's vg and another reason more of my money is with VG. And.....I read Barrons, they often recommend VG ETF funds.....less often than fido funds.

guess I'm lucky to have investment funds and the opportunity to complain about either of them on any given day.
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Old 11-16-2013, 04:54 PM   #77
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Frankly, for many reasons, some good, some not, both VG and fido make it difficult to do business I''m high value client with both and will remain that way.
I'm curious, are you in the Fidelity Private Client group? If so, I'm surprised you had to use a different rep, since you would have a dedicated person to take care of all your accounts. If there were any problems, they would handhold you through them and not even make you wait on the phone if it took more than a few minutes to correct the problem.
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Old 11-16-2013, 05:07 PM   #78
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Oh my, cash incentive. That's my kind of talk. How are their fees overall as compared to VG? Think I'll threaten VG with this when I talk to them on Monday. It's a hassle moving to VG, but no more so doing it again to Fidelity if I have to.
Obviously, the larger the deposit, the better the incentive. ;-).
As far as expenses, depends on what you are looking for. Clearly VG owns the low cost segment, but they also own the low service as well (at least in my experiences with them over the 20+ years)
Since you can buy VG etfs at Fido, price for them and MF equivalents the same. Fido just added some new ETFs with expense ratios near or below VG. Fido also gives access to a nymber of Ishare etfs at no cost.
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Old 11-16-2013, 11:53 PM   #79
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... And, when I wanted a money transfer to pay taxes, they wouldn't release the money without a reason.....my money my business. Why? they were afraid I was moving it to another financial company....
Seriously? And what if you were, would they refuse to transfer it? I might ask for a supervisor if anyone wanted to know a reason we were withdrawing money.
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Old 11-17-2013, 12:09 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by jerome len View Post
FYI on moving everything to Fidelity:

You do have different people and departments at VG that make it difficult to move everything to VG. ........you can have and I've had the same problems at Fidelity.

I gave Fido all my banking ftranfer info for my IRA and and when i wanted to have some funds wired from my brokerage account they needed all the same info.....in writing.... that I had just given them a couple of months ago.....why? different account, different person. And, when I wanted a money transfer to pay taxes, they wouldn't release the money without a reason.....my money my business. Why? they were afraid I was moving it to another financial company.

Frankly, for many reasons, some good, some not, both VG and fido make it difficult to do busiess I''m high value client with both and will remain that way. If I had to choose one it would be VG......lower cost, more ETF funds and less trying to sell me high cost products.

Now, both fido and VG are better than others but I don't think, overall, you'll have fewer problems, better options or less costs with fido than VG. Maybe, some of us have better VG or fido reps......that probably is the reason some of us prefer one or the other.

finally, I like being affiliated with bogleheads......that's vg and another reason more of my money is with VG. And.....I read Barrons, they often recommend VG ETF funds.....less often than fido funds.

guess I'm lucky to have investment funds and the opportunity to complain about either of them on any given day.
I rarely talk live to 'my rep' or anyone else at Vanguard, and I am sure I wouldn't at Fidelity if I still had accounts with them. There are undoubtedly some unusual exceptions, but I can't remember any transaction that can't be done online. All my buy, sell and transfers are done online - instantly or at the next close of business day. We've also done four transfers from 401ks to rollover IRAs at Vanguard, each was completely painless. I've never talked to anyone or had a transaction of any kind held up, not once. YMMV
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