I've been called some low-down names in my time, but "tax unit" just about takes the cake!
I just hope they don't start taxing my unit...
I've been called some low-down names in my time, but "tax unit" just about takes the cake!
Even more straightforward than raising tax rates would be to just send all our money to the gummint and then everything (like health care is becoming) is "free". I realize that's an exaggeration, but I do it for effect. Things that we used to buy (like food, health care, housing, university, etc. etc.,) is now either "free" or subsidized to half the population. I understand there are folks who need help, but at some point, my first statement could become true. I don't mean to turn this political 'cause both sides have played the game well. Now, it's probably too late to untangle it. Unfortunately, "free" things and "subsidized" things seem to have a way of costing more and more to the end payer (i.e., taxpayers - those of us left in the 50% who actually still pay taxes). Think I read something in HS about the law of supply and demand. Yeah. I'm sure I did. If the gummint makes things "free", we'll consume more of them and let someone else pay. Again, not an attack (though maybe a rant). As always, YMMV.
Why should health care be the only thing that is free? Anything else on your list of things that should be free? How about food, electricity, gasoline, houses ( how many bedrooms should that house have ? And how many square ft), cars, entertainment?Actually I would be very happy if the US went to a single payer system and health care became free -- even if it meant raising taxes.
I understand that nobody likes to pay taxes, and I certainly try to minimize my own tax payments, but when you make many times the median income and only pay 15-20% taxes, it feels like we're not paying our fair share. For us, an increase of a few percent in taxes wouldn't be noticeable at all.
FYI the 50% paying no taxes is a myth and the actual number is closer to 10% (for federal taxes)
Who Doesn't Pay Taxes? - NYTimes.com
Why should health care be the only thing that is free? Anything else on your list of things that should be free? How about food, electricity, gasoline, houses ( how many bedrooms should that house have ? And how many square ft), cars, entertainment?
When the median income is $45000 a year, people who makes "many" times more that that do not only pay 15 to 20% tax. Are you only selectively using total federal income tax? But even that often exceed 20%. Do people not have to pay payroll tax, state and city income tax, property tax , sales tax and gasoline tax?
It is somewhat contradictory to say on one hand that you would not notice a few percent more in more taxes, and admit you try to minimize your tax payments at the same time. Spare everyone else of your fairness. By all means , send in all you want to donate to the US Treasury. Do you need the address?
Everybody has different opinions on what services the government should provide. Personally I think healthcare should be free and perhaps university education should be heavily subsidized. We could argue about the worth of these items to society but in the end it comes down to value judgement which each person has to make for themselves.
See this example on bogleheads on how 200k turned into a taxes of about 23k (30k with property tax). That is 15%.
Bogleheads • View topic - Taxes on a family with $200,000 gross income
Well, I think we have to do better than that: There needs to be reasons for government expenditures - reasons that serve the public interest rather than personal interest. In the case of health care the argument can be made that a free market approach leads to results that society considers unacceptable, i.e., the proverbial "poor people dying in the streets" scenario, and its less egregious but still unacceptable cohorts, correlations between wealth and either infant mortality, general infirmity, or (lack of) longevity. In the absence of these consequences of a free market approach to health care, I don't think a strong argument against a free market approach could (or should) be made. It is only the tight connection between the inherent worth and dignity owed to everyone in society and how that's affected by level of health care afforded to everyone in society that justifies any interference in the market.Everybody has different opinions on what services the government should provide. Personally I think healthcare should be free and perhaps university education should be heavily subsidized. We could argue about the worth of these items to society but in the end it comes down to value judgement which each person has to make for themselves.
Porky must be asleep...to allow this in this forum.
I don't disagree, but this thread seems to be drifting away from having much to do with FIRE and it's NOT even the FIRE Related Political Topics forum, this is FIRE and Money.Folks in this country better start having this conversation!
I don't disagree, but this thread seems to be drifting away from having much to do with FIRE and it's NOT even the FIRE Related Political Topics forum, this is FIRE and Money.
Believe me, there are plenty of political issues for us to discuss, but we're supposedly confined to FIRE related here. Very hard to call indeed. YMMV
I don't disagree, but this thread seems to be drifting away from having much to do with FIRE and it's NOT even the FIRE Related Political Topics forum, this is FIRE and Money.
Believe me, there are plenty of political issues for us to discuss, but we're supposedly confined to FIRE related here. Very hard to call indeed. YMMV
The notion of whether an individual should donate to the US government is a little like the prisoner's dilemma problem. If everybody sacrificed a little and paid more taxes to the government we'd be much better off w.r.t to deficits, but if each person is left to their own devices the tendency is for everyone to defect (i.e., no player has anything to gain by changing only his own strategy unilaterally -- see Nash equilibrium - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia )By all means, send in all you want in donation to the US Treasury. Do you need the address?
FYI the 50% paying no taxes is a myth and the actual number is closer to 10% (for federal taxes)
Who Doesn't Pay Taxes? - NYTimes.com
So why not just ignore the thread? Other people may wish to discuss, and I don't see any harm in it, it's all been civil. And certainly the amount that the govt decides to support various activities will affect our taxes, and that affects FIRE. The deeper they have to dig, the more they will look at things like taxing Roths, means based SS adjustments, etc.
I suppose the thread could be moved, I have no view on that as I rarely bother to notice which sub-forum a thread is in, I generally start at the 'portal', that mixes them all in, which is fine for me.
-ERD50
And to lump SS taxes into the mix greatly obfuscates things. For those on the lower end of the income scale, the benefit formula for SS is very favorable. Is it really a tax if the net expected return is positive?This is a stawman when talking about taxes... payroll taxes and most all excise taxes are spent on specific items... payroll taxes on SS and Medicare, gas tax on bridges and roads etc. etc..
And to lump SS taxes into the mix greatly obfuscates things. For those on the lower end of the income scale, the benefit formula for SS is very favorable. Is it really a tax if the net expected return is positive?
If we avoid characterizing the views of others in a negative manner and stick to our opinions the thread is more interesting, and also likely to stay open longer.