When Adult Kids Have To Deal With Parents Bad Choices

[PatrickA5]

We have just gone through this with our elderly parents. They are 88 and 94yo respectively and we just got them into a CCRC this year after a long battle. Unfortunately, they had made no long term care plans.

They insisted on staying in their 4 bedroom home, in another state by themselves, in order to not be a burden to us. In fact, it guaranteed to be a burden. We were on the phone daily over medical complaints and were driving out every other weekend to help them out. 4 hr drive each way.


I was burned out and they finally agreed to enter a nearby CCRC this past January.
I think I still have PTSD a little over the past year's emotional toll.


I still get daily panic calls from my Mom over health complaints. Family is still the first contact over every issue. This is very stressful emotionally since it takes time away from my family plus the constant interruptions at work are affecting my performance.
For awhile she was often calling, accusing my wife of stealing her shirts and her coat. That has dyed down for now.
Sigh ....


My wife and I are making our own plans so as not to burden our kids.

I never could get my dad to consider any kind of assisted living. He just wouldn't do it. At the same time, he didn't want to be a burden on me either, but over the last several years (he lived to 97 on his own), it became to the point where all of our phone calls and visits had to do with his medical issues. He wouldn't even dial 911 himself. He'd call me and say he's fallen and can't get up and been laying on the floor for a couple of hours and he calls me to have me come get him up. So, I'd call 911 and drive over there to meet the ambulance. This happened several times. And every time, he'd return home and refuse help from outside. Until the last fall, which he didn't recover from. I really think he would have maybe had a better end of life experience if he'd considered assisted living, but he didn't want it, and I guess I lived up to my end of the bargain by not forcing him.

DW is currently going through the same thing with her dad, but he's more outgoing and I think he'd thrive in an assisted living environment. My dad was a loner.

My DW and I have everything taken care of and documented all of the way down to prepaid funerals and burials. And, when the time comes, I think both of us will know when it's time to consider moving someplace to get help.

 

[Spock]

...

And, when the time comes, I think both of us will know when it's time to consider moving someplace to get help.

I think that is the primary misconception. We don't have any control over a mental decline. Even if aware of it there is a tendency to dismiss as "thats normal aging". (or depending on the individual personalities, just too dang stubborn/embarrassed to acknowledge its time).



My Dad is constantly forgetting very important conversations/decisions. "You're just making that up! I would have remembered something important like THAT." We don't get to decide what we will remember and what we will forget.



There are some that are still with it enough to know when to "turn over the keys", but they usually have to have a scary "event" to trigger the realization.

 

[PatrickA5]

I think that is the primary misconception. We don't have any control over a mental decline. Even if aware of it there is a tendency to dismiss as "thats normal aging". (or depending on the individual personalities, just too dang stubborn/embarrassed to acknowledge its time).



My Dad is constantly forgetting very important conversations/decisions. "You're just making that up! I would have remembered something important like THAT." We don't get to decide what we will remember and what we will forget.



There are some that are still with it enough to know when to "turn over the keys", but they usually have to have a scary "event" to trigger the realization.

All true. But, there's no reason to move some place a decade early just because we might have a mental decline well down the road. Not really sure what the answer is. Who knows, I might be as stubborn as my dad was.

 

[TwoByFour]

Or in my case... a dysfunctional sibling.

Same here, well for me it is a dysfunctional SIL. Actually she functions OK, but she has no savings and is getting on in years (72) and when she can no longer work she won't have enough resources to make ends meet. The irony with her is she is smart, educated, and talented but never has cared for a career so has always done odd jobs when she felt like working and played otherwise. That life of ease is now catching up to her but DW and I are going to be the ones who will end up helping her out. It is what families do but it is a bit annoying that what we worked and saved for pays for someone who chose not to work and save.

 

[ivinsfan]

Same here, well for me it is a dysfunctional SIL. Actually she functions OK, but she has no savings and is getting on in years (72) and when she can no longer work she won't have enough resources to make ends meet. The irony with her is she is smart, educated, and talented but never has cared for a career so has always done odd jobs when she felt like working and played otherwise. That life of ease is now catching up to her but DW and I are going to be the ones who will end up helping her out. It is what families do but it is a bit annoying that what we worked and saved for pays for someone who chose not to work and save.

This +++1 just found out my 30ish DN's girlfriend about the same age was in a bad motorcycle accident. Luckily she should make a full recovery... But, she's a PCA attendant in a local hospital and by choice works part time as she's likes lots of free time for outdoor pursuits. If she has a special outing coming up she will work a few extra hours for a little bit more cash, but is content living paycheck to paycheck.


She had insurance that didn't cover the hospital she was admitted too under her HMO. The guy who ran into her had the lowest legal insurance coverage. She apparently didn't buy underinsured motorist coverage either. Well she needs more treatment, can't work for maybe 4-6 months if then since one of her legs was totally hosed and has no money.

Friends responded by starting a go fund me with a goal of 50K. It's not a good way to live and yet she made those choices willingly.

 

[daylatedollarshort]

Methinks you have not really looked at the homeless situation in almost all major cities. The federal social safety net is being systematically shredded; I wouldn't suggest assuming it's going to save anyone you know.

I always wonder where posters live who think there is a social safety net. Over half a million people are estimated to be homeless in America.

 

[HI Bill]

My mom divorced late in life (around age 73). She was never good with money, or with credit cards. After she divorced, she bought a LTCI policy, without figuring out whether she was likely to be able to afford it until she needed it (she could not). She gave money to her sister, who's husband gave it to his mother. She gave 10% to the church monthly. She had a withdrawal rate of 6%. She left her $ with Oppenheimer, which had very high fees. She thought her financial advisor/fund manager was doing what was in her best interest. She bought a house in Texas (while living in CA), and proceeded to fix it up. But she never wanted to move there. I remember countless conversations where I kept saying "Move or Sell". More than six months later, and some $45K later, she sold. Luckily, the markets had gone up a bit, and the loss was much more limited than it could have been. She was an insurance monger. The more the better. Overlaping policies. She bought gas at the most expensive station in town, and groceries at the most expensive grocery store. She threw away nearly 50% of the food she bought. She subscribed to more magazines than she could read, and then bought more at the grocery store at retail price. I could go on.

All of this made me vow that I would NEVER help her financially, since she wasted more than $100K after the divorce. Fortunately, by the time she passed, she had slowed her spending, and never went bankrupt. If she had been living on SS instead of a State Teacher's salary, she would have been.

I feel like a terrible son for saying this, but almost all of my attempts to help her with financial decisions fell on deaf ears, as she had spent decades under the iron fist of my father. She failed to realize that he was the only reason they had any retirement savings at all.

 

[Teacher Terry]

Two, I would find resources for your SIL like low income senior housing, etc. There are many things available and with her SS she should be fine. There are many more resources for seniors then for other groups. The key is to apply for housing a few years before you need it. Between SNAP, food pantries, heat assistance, etc people can live on SS.

 

[Walt34]

I always wonder where posters live who think there is a social safety net. Over half a million people are estimated to be homeless in America.

Part of it involves where the person is, and whether they have the mental capacity to use the available social services. Where I used to work was a wealthy area with generous social services and there really was no good reason for anyone to be homeless. But they had to have the mental ability to follow those rules and procedures and if they couldn't, or didn't want to, they were homeless. For example almost universally every shelter has a strict "no alcohol, no drugs" policy. Many cannot or will not give those up.

To be involuntarily taken to a mental hospital they had to be a "clear and present danger to themselves or others". Very few met that criteria.

As a result there were still many homeless people in that area.

 

[harllee]

I want to put in my very positive thoughts about CCRCs. My mom (age 87) is currently in a very nice CCRC in an Independent Living Apartment and she loves it, she really enjoys the communal dining, all the activities and has made many friends. I am so thankful she is there--it gives me so much peace of mind. The kind of CCRC mom is in requires a relatively small entrance fee ($60,000) and a monthly fee of $2200 (which includes some meals) but if she moves to assisted living, skilled nursing or memory care her monthly fee goes up. Fortunately mom has LTC insurance. I am grateful my mother made good long term financial plans for herself.

Because the CCRC has worked so well for my mom, DH and I have our names on the waiting list of a CCRC near where we live and plan to move in when we are early 70s (we are 67 now). The CCRC we will move into has a large move in fee but if have have to move to assisted, skilled or memory care our monthly payment remains the same so we do not need LTC insurance. We sleep easier at night knowing we have made these plans for ourselves.

 

[Teacher Terry]

If a person doesn't have the capacity to use services a social worker can help or a family member or friend. I have helped more then one friend obtain services. My Aunt is still living alone at 93. She doesn't drive and hires someone to clean for her. Her daughter drives her places and does her laundry because she wants too. She is retired and has the time. My Aunt could hire this done if needed.

 

[TrophyWife]

We have decided to "not care more than they care" but the person needs to be in their right mind for these kind of boundaries. We will not finance someones bad decisions, because then it becomes a bad decision for us.

 

[travelover]

We have decided to "not care more than they care" but the person needs to be in their right mind for these kind of boundaries. We will not finance someones bad decisions, because then it becomes a bad decision for us.

What about the people not in their right mind?

 

[powerplay]

I have a younger sibling who at 57 has never had a legitimate job for more than a few days to weeks. She will never have social security or medicare because there is no work history to qualify. Currently not working and I don't believe even trying to find work. Has lived off student loans for the past several years and claims to have gotten a bachelor of science degree earlier this year. I've seen no evidence of the degree. The student loans will soon need to be paid back. She always has many excuses and it's always someone or something else at fault with lots of circular reasoning. She lives with a guy who is older and receives a minimum level of SS. They live in a not very nice apartment and get food from the local senior center and he gets MOW. The situation is only going to get worse yet she still expects the world to provide her a living. She has some fantasy that she should be able to get hired into a job paying $100k + a year. I do not plan to support her.

 

[Scrapr]

Mrs scrapr has a long time friend that is going to be paying the piper soon. I really think she has some mental issues going on. She bought a trendy condo right before the bust. Bank has been trying to foreclose but she somehow keeps the wolf at the door away.I know that she has not make a mortgage payment in a very long time. Maybe close to 10 years. She stacks student loans on top of each other. With no end goal in mind. She is a caretaker for her mom in Assisted Living. She pays herself a salary out of her Mom's funds. She has not worked in a long time. She has very specific requirements to work. Like can't sit for longer than 5 minutes. Can't stand for > 3 minutes. She is very litigeous as well. Good luck getting hired with a history like that

She talks of the 4 long time friends buying a house like a commune and all living together. I have no idea what is going to happen. But commune ain't one of them

 

[Teacher Terry]

Power, your sister will qualify for SSI which is for poor people and usually is only between 300-500/month.

 

[gauss]

Power, your sister will qualify for SSI which is for poor people and usually is only between 300-500/month.

Under current law, if no other income nor assets, then SSI can pay $771/month to a single senior in 2019 and the individual state may supplement this a bit too.

Note this program is limited to seniors and disabled people.

As mentioned in the pamphlet, recipients will usually also be able to qualify for SNAP (aka food stamps), and possibly section 8 housing.

Remember this when you see homeless seniors "begging" in the streets.

 

[gatored]

Similar story, sort of. My o'guy went on a nudie bar binge to the tune of $30K in 9 months. That's what I knew of. Was a wild time for him and me later.

“I spent half my money on gambling, alcohol and wild women. The other half I wasted.”

 

[The Cosmic Avenger]

My dad was actually very smart with money, he and my mom taught me to LBYM and not use credit lightly, so I didn't have to worry about him financially. But his personal life was a bit of a mess, and I had to deal with his bad choices there, like not taking care of his health and being a hoarder. After he died (which is a whole 'nother story), I had to pay a couple of grand to have the contents of his apartment hauled to the dump, including ratty and even broken furniture. (There was an otherwise nice old sofa with one leg completely splintered off.)

I mean, first I went through his personal papers for what I needed, found some very small items of sentimental value, and packed up a couple of small boxes of household goods I could actually use in the short term, I started going through the floor-to-ceiling boxes in every room.

After the third or fourth box of utility bills that were well over a decade old, I called it quits and had it all hauled to the dump.

For context, I had warned him about his hoarding, that he was simply ignoring the problem and leaving it for me to deal with. And having everything hauled away was the best thing I could have done for my mental and emotional health.

 

[PatrickA5]

My dad was actually very smart with money, he and my mom taught me to LBYM and not use credit lightly, so I didn't have to worry about him financially. But his personal life was a bit of a mess, and I had to deal with his bad choices there, like not taking care of his health and being a hoarder. After he died (which is a whole 'nother story), I had to pay a couple of grand to have the contents of his apartment hauled to the dump, including ratty and even broken furniture. (There was an otherwise nice old sofa with one leg completely splintered off.)

I mean, first I went through his personal papers for what I needed, found some very small items of sentimental value, and packed up a couple of small boxes of household goods I could actually use in the short term, I started going through the floor-to-ceiling boxes in every room.

After the third or fourth box of utility bills that were well over a decade old, I called it quits and had it all hauled to the dump.

For context, I had warned him about his hoarding, that he was simply ignoring the problem and leaving it for me to deal with. And having everything hauled away was the best thing I could have done for my mental and emotional health.

My dad wasn't really a hoarder because he didn't buy much. But what he bought, he kept. There was some furniture that we could actually give away to Salvation Army and Goodwill, but we paid to have most of the stuff haul off to the dump. I'm just glad he wasn't around to witness what we ended up doing with his "treasures". It took a couple of weeks to empty the house to sell. Yep, he had utility bills going back to 1968 when he bought the house.

 

[Teacher Terry]

Thanks Gauss for the updated figure. I have been retired for 6 years and that is general range back then.

 

[powerplay]

Power, your sister will qualify for SSI which is for poor people and usually is only between 300-500/month.

Yes, she will get SSI and that will be extremely difficult to live on. I expect by the time she is old enough to get SSI her friend will be gone and thus his SS they now depend on for rent etc.

 

[Souschef]

When my Dad died, mys sis and BIL (Bless Them) went down to mom's condo to clean out the non (now) walk in closet.
She claims she took 100 bags of stuff he had hoarded in there (maybe small bags). I know he would go around picking up things to fix, but never did.
The one thing that griped me was he had movies of the 1938 NY World's Fair. We pleaded with him to have them put on video tape He never did. When BIL opened the cans the nitrate film had disintegrated.

 

[jayanu]

My friend lives in IL, his[parents moved to Fl. Father passed away. monther stayed for a while. They were "collectors." My friend had to go every fortnight for a weekend (for 6 months) to clean up the "collection." Please don't do this to your kids. Though this thread is for parents situations we should remember that we are (most of us) are parents and learn from these to make it easy for our kids!

 

[jayanu]

I want to put in my very positive thoughts about CCRCs. My mom (age 87) is currently in a very nice CCRC in an Independent Living Apartment and she loves it, she really enjoys the communal dining, all the activities and has made many friends. I am so thankful she is there--it gives me so much peace of mind. The kind of CCRC mom is in requires a relatively small entrance fee ($60,000) and a monthly fee of $2200 (which includes some meals) but if she moves to assisted living, skilled nursing or memory care her monthly fee goes up. Fortunately mom has LTC insurance. I am grateful my mother made good long term financial plans for herself.

Because the CCRC has worked so well for my mom, DH and I have our names on the waiting list of a CCRC near where we live and plan to move in when we are early 70s (we are 67 now). The CCRC we will move into has a large move in fee but if have have to move to assisted, skilled or memory care our monthly payment remains the same so we do not need LTC insurance. We sleep easier at night knowing we have made these plans for ourselves.

Yes.
There are three major types of CCRCs. 1) Pay as you go, 2) Modified Pay as you go and 3) Total Life Care. 1 and 2 have lower monthly cost since the LifeCare is not included. It is good for those who have LTC Insurance or are willing to roll the dice an take a chance of being in 30% who will not need any LTC. But if and when you need the Assisted Living, Nursing home, or have mercy and need Dementia or Parkinson's type of chronic long-term neurological disease care then it can be pretty expensive.

Look at the Genworth website to see the cost of them. Not everyone needs Nursing home, and most in Nursing Home leave this Earth in 3 years or less, but the neurological disease can keep the person in limbo for many years (my brother has Parkinson's for 12 years). In such case, the cost and the toll on the caretaker can add up.

That is why we chose a total LifeCare option - no rolling of the dice, get better care (if and when needed right on the campus, have lots of friends and activities to stay young and give peace of mind to kids!

One thing to remember that the LTC insurance does not pay enough. Most are for a total of $5,000/month for 3 years (applied to either or both spouses COMBINED). $5,000/month seems large, but the cost of Nursing Home for a semi-private room is $125K in NJ (Alaska $300K while Louisana ~$60k). So you are responsible for the remainder, and this cost grows 5-6%/year!

Many LTC insurance com stopped the business or are not taking any more and are increasing the fees or reducing to lower benefits so be careful. LTC Insurance is not a panacea and can give a false feeling of safety. Plus you have to run around to find a bed in a good Nursing Home when you do need, and you may not be able to make the best or even optimum decision.

This uncertainty can be avoided by being in a CCRC. Plus a right CCRC with lots of activities can keep you "young" and healthy avoiding the deadly disease of loneliness too. Loneliness issue is vital for males when they lose the spouse. Males have difficulty being alone; Females are survivors with resilience!

I will also suggest reading book and websites on CCRC. Avoid for Profit if you can, they are corporate and may nickel and dime and cut corners. In 2008 crisis most CCRC that went bankrupt were for-profit CCRC. Though a nonprofit CCRC can also get in trouble also if it does not have expertise in running a CCRC. Read their 5-year financials. Look at the occupancy ratio of 92%+ is better financial stability. Run the numbers by an Elder Care CPA/Lawyer to focus on the financial wellness of a CCRC. Look for one that has been around long since they would have weathered crises!

There are some 1956 CCRC with 600K+ people in it. Not enough for the nation that is having 10,000/day baby boomers retiring.

Some 35% are in five states: PA, OH, CA, IL, and FL. Highest is in PA - 10% (no state income tax for retirement income). NJ has only 27; MA has 31, NY has only 12 CCRcs!

Most think they are too young to be in CCRC. But if you go in a well run CCRC with lots of activities and residents then you can actually enjoy the life better and some in Willow Valley Communities, in Lancaster, PA (where we are going) join at 55 and continue working but are securing fun life with lots of activities to stay young and secure LifeCare. Their entrance fees go a long way because it is amortized over a long period. Paying $250K for the entrance fee and living for 25 years vs. 5 or 10 years is a better use of the money. Plus longer one waits the entrance fees go up anyway!