When to start taking Social Security

Wash??

For married couples, it certainly is not a wash whichever way you take it. As I have written about and proven, if the higher earner in a married couple delays SS, you can expect much higher lifetime SS, tap spousal benefits that would be otherwise wasted, have a surviving spouse recieve higher lifetime income, and enjoy signficant tax advantages due to the way the tax laws are written. In other words, you can retire earlier or enjoy higher after-tax income by creating an optimal strategy. It certainly isn't six in one hand, a half dollar in the other.
 
theres a new thinking about not taking ss as early as you can and now delaying it as long as you can. the reason is its no longer about breaking even if you wait. its now about being able to have more each year to live on by delaying it. with the comfort of knowing if you wait your future payments will refill your nest egg with as much as 30% more , you can actually take a bigger withdrawl rate right from day 1 of retirement. as long as you have the extra dough to layout the fact that if you spend more in your early years of retirement and withdraw more than the traditional 4% it will be replensished later on at the higher rate. its kind of like buying an annuity.

its not about dying with the biggest pile, its about having the best life you can while alive
 
I just heard about this over the weekend on the radio talk show. What a deal!! This article was in Forbes.

"Millions of retired Americans could substantially raise their living standards throughout retirement by sending checks for tens of thousands of dollars to the Social Security Administration. That's right, to the government.

At least that's the conclusion of Boston University Professor of Economics Laurence J. Kotlikoff, who began evaluating this strategy after reading an article in Forbes that noted an obscure and surprising provision of the Social Security law.
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Incredibly, a recipient can "undo" his decision to take Social Security retirement benefits early simply by paying back--without any interest or inflation adjustment--the benefits he's received. He can then re-apply for Social Security and claim the bigger monthly checks paid to those who wait until an older age to claim benefits.
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Does this really pay off? Yes, if you compare the Social Security ploy with what you'd have to pay an insurance company for a similar annuity.

Kotlikoff provides this example: A couple, now both 70, claimed Social Security retirement benefits at 62, as more than half of Americans do. They now collect $11,556 each a year. If they had waited until 70 to claim benefits, they would be entitled to $20,000 each a year--even though they didn't earn more wages between the ages of 62 and 70.

The couple fills out Social Security's form 521, "Request for Withdrawal of Application", and pays back $79,305 each in benefits. They then reapply--and begin collecting $20,000 a year each. In effect, they've each bought an extra $8,444 a year in inflation-adjusted annuity. The cheapest commercial annuity would cost them 40% more, Kotlikoff calculates.

Still, many couples might gag at the thought of writing a check for $158,610 to Uncle Sam. What about leaving money to the kids? What if one of them keels over tomorrow?

Here's a potentially more palatable option: Have only one spouse trade in benefits. For $79,305, the couple gets an $8,444 joint life annuity. Joint life, because if the spouse who buys the higher benefit dies first, the survivor gets to take the deceased spouse's bigger Social Security check instead of his or her own smaller one. In other words, you get the survivor's benefit for free. Buying this annuity from a commercial insurer would cost 80% more, Kotlikoff says.

"If anybody is going to buy an annuity, they should buy it from Social Security first,'' he concludes.

Unfortunately, part of what you save by buying your annuity from Social Security, you could have to pay back to the government in the form of taxes. Depending on your income, up to 85% of your Social Security benefits is subject to federal income taxes. If you buy an immediate commercial annuity with after-tax dollars, a large part of what you get back is considered a nontaxable return of principal. A 70-year-old couple buying a joint life annuity would typically be able to exclude 64% of the annuity payment from federal taxable income.

So Kotlikoff also evaluated the Social Security trade-in strategy using ESPlanner, financial planning software he co-developed, that aims to maximize and smooth consumption over a lifetime while taking taxes into account. Say our 70-year-old couple has no pension, no Individual Retirement Accounts, and $400,000 in taxable investments. They invest conservatively and want to make sure that their assets last until they're both 100.

If they both trade in for higher Social Security benefits, they will be able to spend 25% more a year; if they both buy commercial annuities paying an extra $8,444 a year, their living standard goes up only 12%, the program shows. That 25% increase in living standards, Kotlikoff notes, is the equivalent of the couple getting a $200,000 inheritance.

If the same couple also has $400,000 in pretax IRA accounts, Social Security is still a better buy than a commercial annuity, but its advantage is smaller. That's because mandatory withdrawals from their IRAs raise their gross income and make more of their Social Security benefits taxable. They'll get a 14% living standard boost from buying bigger checks from Social Security, versus an 11% increase if they buy commercial annuities.

But even for this higher-income couple, Social Security is a big winner over a commercial annuity if they (reasonably) bet that that only one of them will live to be very, very old and only one spouse trades up to a bigger Social Security check. After the first spouse dies, the survivor has a 17% higher living standard than if the couple had done nothing. By contrast, buying an expensive commercial joint life annuity would raise the survivor's living standard by only 6%.

Is repaying Social Security to gain higher benefits legal? Yep, says Mark Lassiter, a spokesman for the Social Security Administration. "We don't consider it naughty,'' he says. Form 521 asks for your reason for withdrawing your initial benefit application, but that's only so that Social Security employees can make sure the person filing the application understands what he's doing.

You can write that your reason is that it's better for you financially and the SSA won't nix your application, Lassiter says. About 100,000 folks file Form 521 each year, but the Social Security Administration doesn't tally the reasons they give. Some, no doubt, have simply decided not to quit working so soon.
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Kotlikoff, for his part, is convinced millions of retirees in their late 60s and early 70s would benefit from trading in their benefits. Be aware that the return from trading in declines after 70. That's because Social Security benefits don't continue to grow past that age, and you'll have more years of previous benefits to repay.

This all raises the question of whether--assuming you don't actually need a Social Security check to live on at age 62--you should wait until 69 or 70 to claim a bigger Social Security check or file for benefits at 62, invest the money, repay the early benefits at 69 or 70, and then claim that bigger check.

Kotlikoff says the answer depends on many factors. Among them: a couple's other income, which will determine how much of those Social Security benefits they receive from 62 to 70 will be taxed, and at what rate. :eek:
 
Read Want2Retire and New Thinking....

If single... it does not matter... we can all think we will live to 90 or 100... but die anyhow (my BIL used to tell me how fit he was.... died of a heart attack a few months back at 72)...

SO, if single.... it really does not matter as it is a gamble either way... the BIG variable is how long we live and NOBODY knows that number...

If we are married... then we SHOULD think of our spouse which I assume we still love if we are still married... if 'she' is younger, then it is a no brainer to wait until 70... if 'he' is younger... well, then it might or might not be good...

For most married couples it is best to wait.... but as my other BIL said, what is he supposed to do while waiting until 70? Work?
 
IMHO, this plan to pay SS back at 70 and take a higher benefit is one of those MBA "looks great on paper" schemes. Remember the Laffer Curve? Remember trickle-down economics? Remember the recent mortgage practices which have all but ruined real estate and financial markets?

Why has this theory become all the buzz lately? Who is promoting this? I get suspicious anytime I hear a "too good to be true!" promotion. Just my 2 cents.

After having read hundreds of articles and many books on financial planning, I'm perplexed that so many of these writers describe in great detail the problems of continuing to fund SS benefits and that there will have to be extreme changes or reductions for the system to continue; then, they continue to suggest that one should not collect till 66 or 70 to receive higher benefits. Whaaaaa??

My husband and I experienced his pension being frozen a few years ago, thus depriving us of nearly 1/3 of the pension income we were expecting when we retire in the next few weeks. I certainly have no intention of trusting SS. We're taking our benefits as soon as we are eligible.
 
<i>The couple fills out Social Security's form 521, "Request for Withdrawal of Application", and pays back $79,305 each in benefits. They then reapply--and begin collecting $20,000 a year each. In effect, they've each bought an extra $8,444 a year in inflation-adjusted annuity. </i>

I agree with the "looks great only on paper" comment. Except that I'm not sure that it even passes the laugh test on paper. So, how does this work?
They are having trouble getting by on $11,556 (each) and they really need $20,000. So they write a check for $79K (each!)?

Duh--maybe I'm stupid, but just where did they get the $79K? Perhaps they've been putting the $11,556 into a savings account? If so, they they haven't been using it to live on, have they? De facto, they don't need the $11K, so why do they say they can't make it on $11K and really need $20K.

I really think this is mostly another example of "if you need to do it, you can't----but if you can then you don't need to do it".
 
What we all are not going to live to 95 and spend every penny we got? Bah :duh:
 
Taking it early and paying it back

makes sense over buying an annuity, but an annuity only makes sense if you expect to live longer than median. Fundamentally, your life expectancy is the important factor. I think most people have realistic ideas of their life expectancy by the time they reach this age and should behave accordingly.
 
Fundamentally, your life expectancy is the important factor. I think most people have realistic ideas of their life expectancy by the time they reach this age and should behave accordingly.

Unless you have untreatable cancer, all those other chronic problems are not very meaningful to an individual, as opposed in an actuarial sense to a group.

Before he was 50 my Dad had picked up a couple chronic ills, and he and some others assumed he would not live a real long time. But he retired at 65, and lived more than 20 years after that in mostly good health.

So I would not underestimate the insurance value of SS, and the risk reduction of waiting to get a larger monthly payment if one is able to do so.

For me at least, another factor is that I do not want to bet against my own longevity. It isn't that I think I will necessarily live to 95; it's just that I don't want the bad karma of betting against that possibility.

Ha
 
I certainly have no intention of trusting SS. We're taking our benefits as soon as we are eligible.

Me too. With the economy the way it is the gummit is going to be looking under the seat cushions for every bit of spare change it can find.

If I even make it to eligibility before they cut my benefit (I'm 51 now), I'll run, not walk down to the nearest SS office to file my papers.
 
its not about dying with the biggest pile, its about having the best life you can while alive

I would rather die with money than live without it.

For me/DW, she will take SS at 62 and me at 70. Using whatever forecast tool (FIRECalc, Vanguard's F.E., Fidelity's R.I.P.), it "makes the numbers look better". Additionally, assuming I go first, my wife will be collecting 3x as much when I die (assuming I go at/after 70) than what she will be getting at 62.

- Ron
 
I disagree

SO, if single.... it really does not matter as it is a gamble either way
I respectively disagree with this post. As we have discussed before and I have written about, there is still a tremendous tax saving for a typical single individual to tap qualified assets for income and delay SS to 70. For example, in a recent paper, when delaying SS, we found that a nest egg only 54% of the size is needed at age 62 compared to someone who also retires at 62 and draws SS right away. The nest egg needed when delaying SS was slightly over $200,000 less than a typical individual taking SS at 62 and using a "4% safe withdrawal method" with typical mutual funds. For middle income folks, it will take 13-15 years to accumulate another $200,000 in a 401k.
 
On paying back

One other point on the whole "take it at 62 and pay it back"..Other than this being highly unlikely for someone to actually do, it is not the optimal approach for most married couples. When you pay back benefits at an advanced age, say age 70, you have to pay spousal benefits back as well. If you are in a situation that you are generating spousal benefits, the better approach is to wait until Full Retirement Age and then filing for benefits and then suspending them. This triggers the spousal benefit being paid. In other words, you may have four years of spousal benefits being paid (say from higher earning spouse's age 66-70) that are in excess of the amount someone "paying back at age 70" would earn.

If your spouse earned a benefit on her/his own, it is better for her to start her benefits early and then the higher earning spouse requests ONLY spousal benefits off of the other spouse's benefits to be paid. Again, "extra" income for four or so years compared to "paying back at age 70".

For single folks, these strategies do not work, but married couples should seek to maximize benefits and I cannot see how filing at 62 and then repaying and starting over at age 70 does that.
 
I respectively disagree with this post. As we have discussed before and I have written about, there is still a tremendous tax saving for a typical single individual to tap qualified assets for income and delay SS to 70. For example, in a recent paper, when delaying SS, we found that a nest egg only 54% of the size is needed at age 62 compared to someone who also retires at 62 and draws SS right away. The nest egg needed when delaying SS was slightly over $200,000 less than a typical individual taking SS at 62 and using a "4% safe withdrawal method" with typical mutual funds. For middle income folks, it will take 13-15 years to accumulate another $200,000 in a 401k.

By recent paper, do you mean Rethinking Social Security Claiming in a 401(k) World?
 
I respectively disagree with this post. As we have discussed before and I have written about, there is still a tremendous tax saving for a typical single individual to tap qualified assets for income and delay SS to 70.
New Thinking, would you comment on this situation?

I, a single man, have X net invested income producing assets. Roughly (1/3*X) in IRAs, (2/3*X) in taxable accounts. I will soon be 67, and do not yet draw SS. Nor have I ever withdrawn from my IRAs.

I live solely on interest and (mostly) dividends from my taxable accounts, plus sometimes some capital withdrawal from these same taxable accounts. Since retirement more than 20 years ago I have never had a down year in investments, but I have had down years in assets after withdrawing for living expenses.

I rent, so my expenses are not lumpy, and I don't plan on expensive trips or any other foreseeable large expenses.

What is my optimum strategy, regarding both SS and timing of asset withdrawals?

Much thanks,

Ha
 
In all the discussions about delaying SS until fra or 70 and pulling from your nest egg to supplement the difference no one ever discusses a low end safe limit for the nest egg. Surly there has to be a danger zone for some people on how far to pull down the nest egg because once you start taking SS you only replace the spent money one check at a time.

For most on this board SS will be small potatoes compared to the total retirement income picture. In my own situation if I delay SS till 70 it would require about $150k in todays dollars if I replace the money dollar for dollar from my nest egg. For me that's no problem. But if I only had $200K or $300K savings I would get more than a little squeamish about burning it down waiting for a bigger check down the road.

Just curious if anyone has given any thought to where the low end might be.
 
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But if I only had $200K or $300K savings I would get more than a little squeamish about burning it down waiting for a bigger check down the road.

Just curious if anyone has given any thought to where the low end might be.

I would think that those that have little/nothing invested for retirement would not even consider delaying their age 62 benefit (even by one day).

Those that are persuing the delay (as my DW/me are) feel confident in delaying. We plan to delay (at least me) till 70. If my plan dosen't work out, I simply file earlier. It's that simple...

- Ron
 
I just flat-out do not understand this. The SS administration itself says " early or late retirement will give you about the same total Social Security benefits over your lifetime. However, if you retire early, the monthly benefit amounts will be smaller to take into account the longer period you will receive them."
An analogy would be debating whether it's best to buy a two-liter of Coke for $3 or two one-liter bottles for $1.50 each.
Huh:confused:

If your total lifetime amounts are the same, then what's the significant advantage of getting a larger payment when you are trading it off for a longer period of proportionally smaller payments? I just don't get it. If you "need" the higher payment of the delayed time, then what are you living on in the years before 70?

I can see not taking SS at 62 as long as you are still working and collecting a paycheck. But if you aren't---what's the benefit of collecting $0 for 4-8 years and then collecting a higher amount vs. collecting the reduced amount for all the years. Given the fact that the total collected in your lifetime will be the same whichever way you take it.
 
I just flat-out do not understand this. The SS administration itself says " early or late retirement will give you about the same total Social Security benefits over your lifetime. However, if you retire early, the monthly benefit amounts will be smaller to take into account the longer period you will receive them."
An analogy would be debating whether it's best to buy a two-liter of Coke for $3 or two one-liter bottles for $1.50 each.
Huh:confused:

If your total lifetime amounts are the same, then what's the significant advantage of getting a larger payment when you are trading it off for a longer period of proportionally smaller payments? I just don't get it. If you "need" the higher payment of the delayed time, then what are you living on in the years before 70?

I can see not taking SS at 62 as long as you are still working and collecting a paycheck. But if you aren't---what's the benefit of collecting $0 for 4-8 years and then collecting a higher amount vs. collecting the reduced amount for all the years. Given the fact that the total collected in your lifetime will be the same whichever way you take it.
Some answers to your questions are found in several posts above.

The actuarial benefits come from several areas. Since benefits are the same for a man or a woman even though women live longer, this is free money for any woman. The greatest extra amount is harvested on average by waiting till 70 to begin benefits.

Also, the SS annuity has a 100% survivor benefit, for which you pay nothing. This is found money for a married couple, especially where the woman is younger than the man, or to some extent when the man is younger.

Other benefits may come from timing of tax deferred accounts withdrawals, and carefully coordinating these with mandatory minimum distributions which begin in the year in which you turn 70.5.

Ha
 
My plan is wait until about 70 to draw SS with DW drawing at 62 for the following reasons:

1) We are converting TIRAs to RIRAs so as to minimize the hassle with RMDs at 70.5. Taking SS at this time would mean paying taxes in a higher marginal tax bracket or reducing the amout of our conversions each year. By having the majority (or all) TIRAs converted to RIRAs prior to drawing SS will keep taxes lower and allow greater flexibility to control taxes.
2) DW is almost 9 years younger than me. Therefore; she will probably live about 12 years after I croak (ribbit; ribbit). When I die, she will draw my higher SS amount.
3) Parents are in their '90s. Grandparents on both sides lived to upper '90s. Odds are good we will live beyond the "average".

For us the benefit favors me waiting to draw SS since we do not need the income at this.
 
IMO three factors should be considered in the "do over" impact:

1. Earnings, if any, on early benefits over the time/years up to the do over date.

2. The income tax rebate for any taxes paid on SS benefits during the years of the early benefits.

3. Other taxable income high enough to make SS benefits 85% taxable regardless when SS benefits are taken.
 
in my pre-FIRE prep, i always viewed SS as the extra gravy. i am not an optimist about the health of the SS system when i hit 62 in 12 yrs.

i will start SS at age 62 for sure. my full SS benefit age is 66 yrs 8 mos. my crystal ball says that full benefit age could be increased by Congress by then (16+ yrs from now). ya never know. i don't like surprises so i'll start up at 62.

my reasoning - for 4 yrs 8 mos, i will take the lesser payments and invest it in an income generator fund, tax exempt of course. eventually the interest may approach some of the difference (age 62 vs age 66y8m) and i will have the funds in my hands, not leave it in theirs.

re: I can see not taking SS at 62 as long as you are still working and collecting a paycheck. But if you aren't---what's the benefit of collecting $0 for 4-8 years and then collecting a higher amount vs. collecting the reduced amount for all the years. Given the fact that the total collected in your lifetime will be the same whichever way you take it

i totally agree. very good observation.
 
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