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Old 01-11-2013, 09:21 AM   #61
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I'm a Vanguard guy and use Ally checking/savings as my base account rather than using Prime MM. Distributions go right into Ally and at any time I can make same day purchases of any of my Vanguard funds out of Ally. Hey, 1% on 20 grand is $200 and it's FDIC insured. It's as simple as using the MM so why earn nothing?
I've pretty much decided on Ally. I'll have very few transactions so I won't need much service, might as well go for the higher savings/MMA interest rates and no fees (as I will use it). Thanks everyone...
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Old 01-11-2013, 09:21 AM   #62
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One way to initiate money transfers from BOA without incurring a fee is to use their online banking feature. I do this for my one remaining monthly bill.
My wife has been paying all the bills from the same BoA account, and we never have to pay a fee. That includes utility bills, cable TV, internet, credit cards, insurance, car registration, etc... I do not know the details as it is her realm, but definitely no fees are incurred.

My wife said several times that without her, I would not know to pay all the bills and get into big troubles. I replied that without me, she would not know where all the money is.

We need to cross-train!
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Old 01-11-2013, 09:22 AM   #63
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I use CIT Bank www.citbank.com for online savings. The current savings rate is 1% and everything is done online. It's easy to transfer online in and out to my checking account.
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Old 01-11-2013, 09:37 AM   #64
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I keep reading these posts and do not understand why posters:
1) hold a lot of cash beyond a few month's needs
2) do not care what their cash rate of return is

When (1) is combined with (2) it's a good way to lower your overall portfolio return. Over the decades cash has not been a great investment although there have been times (not now) when you could get a real return on it.

These charts of cash real returns (3 month Treasuries) came from an old article:

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Old 01-11-2013, 10:16 AM   #65
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I keep reading these posts and do not understand why posters:
1) hold a lot of cash beyond a few month's needs
2) do not care what their cash rate of return is
I don't know anyone who fits in 2). All the threads, esp in the past few years, on what to do with cash indicate otherwise IMO.


There are better explanations but I couldn't find one online quickly so as for 1), your need to hold cash is reduced if
  • All or a significant part of your retirement income is provided by pensions/annuities/Soc Sec and/or other steady income (property).
  • You don't want any money on the sidelines to take advantage of market opportunities.
  • Your withdrawal rate is relatively low, your need to hold cash may be reduced. Those who've 'already won the game.'
  • You have no/limited floor income and your retirement expenses must be met by portfolio withdrawals, if you don't care about being forced to liquidate other holdings (equities, bonds, etc.) at a bottom.
  • Your tolerance for risk/volatility is high and your investing acumen is solid (you sleep well at night).
  • Combinations of all or part above.
I'm sure someone will come along and provide a more coherent reply.

As with most questions $ here, there are often no universal answers. It depends...
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Old 01-11-2013, 10:21 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by Lsbcal View Post
I keep reading these posts and do not understand why posters:
1) hold a lot of cash beyond a few month's needs
2) do not care what their cash rate of return is
Regarding #1... How much is "enough" in one's emergency fund is a matter of opinion. I've seen three months, six months, nine months, twelve months, etc. I've even seen someone assert that they wanted an eighteen month cushion.

The right number is going to depend on how readily you can turn investments into cash with minimal penalty, if you needed to. The variability can be quite obvious just by looking at the words in that one sentence: How much cash you're going to need depends on your ongoing expenses and how much of that is discretionary; what constitutes a "minimal" penalty is a matter of opinion, etc. However, the biggest variable in there is how long do you think you'll be in a position of less or no income? The last time it happened to us it was nine months.

But that's not the whole story. Right now, we have eighteen months of income (yes, income, not expense), in cash, making 0.95% interest. That's way too much, of course. It is far more than our emergency fund - the rest of it is a fundamental part of our asset allocation - and to be clear, we're actually within 0.2% of our optimal allocation for "short-term".

(See "Growth" in the chart on THIS page.)

So what are we supposed to do with that cash? Just throwing it all into bonds is probably not the right thing to do. Bonds is the green portion of the chart... this is the yellow portion. So what do you suggest? I don't think there is any good answer for where to put the money associated with the short-term portion of our asset allocation.

Now to be fair, I'm just starting to learn about I Bonds, which might be the right answer. While they're bonds, there is some reason to claim that they could qualify under that "short-term" category.
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Old 01-11-2013, 10:29 AM   #67
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Now to be fair, I'm just starting to learn about I Bonds, which might be the right answer. While they're bonds, there is some reason to claim that they could qualify under that "short-term" category.
I've probably overlooked IBonds too long. But it's because of the $10K/yr limit on purchasing them. That means it would take 5-10 years laddering IBonds to have 1-2 years worth of income in IBonds unless I'm missing something (wouldn't be the first time). Doesn't make it a bad approach at all, just a strategy that takes many years to implement (vs CDs where you could build any ladder at least durations you want instantly). Do I wish I would have thought about it 5 years ago, maybe...though MMFs provided decent (even stellar late 70's & 80's) returns for my entire investing life until 2009 or so.
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Old 01-11-2013, 10:31 AM   #68
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Frankly, as long as you stay under the FDIC limits, who cares what the rating is?
I usually like to avoid takeover targets. When a rating is low, it means the deposits are low. To increase deposits a bank may offer higher interest. 4 star or more means a strong bank that is likely to offer consistent rates and service.

Having to set up a new account via the internet can be easy (ING - all online, fax documents or scan and attach), to complicated (send it all in with a personal check and wait for the mail and the banking system).

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Old 01-11-2013, 10:36 AM   #69
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...(snip)...
(See "Growth" in the chart on THIS page.)

So what are we supposed to do with that cash? Just throwing it all into bonds is probably not the right thing to do. Bonds is the green portion of the chart... this is the yellow portion. So what do you suggest? I don't think there is any good answer for where to put the money associated with the short-term portion of our asset allocation.

Now to be fair, I'm just starting to learn about I Bonds, which might be the right answer. While they're bonds, there is some reason to claim that they could qualify under that "short-term" category.
What I posted about our cash situation is a longish term picture of handling cash. The yellow portion of the chart you mention might be a combo for ST bonds and ST CD's and even money market accounts. Or the ST bonds might be in the green part. The green "bonds" I would think is primarily referring to intermediate bonds that have a perhaps 3 to 5 year duration. Duration is then the key concept here and cash is very short duration -- near zero.

On a short term basis if one is holding a lot of cash (earning maybe 1% before inflation), there is no crystal ball to decide where to move it. At least I don't have one . I'm referring to the long term plan for stashing cash where that "bucket" is continuously filled from some higher risk/return asset.
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Old 01-11-2013, 10:44 AM   #70
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I don't know anyone who fits in 2). All the threads, esp in the past few years, on what to do with cash indicate otherwise IMO.

There are better explanations but I couldn't find one online quickly so as for 1), your need to hold cash is reduced if
  • All or a significant part of your retirement income is provided by pensions/annuities/Soc Sec and/or other steady income (property).
  • You don't want any money on the sidelines to take advantage of market opportunities.
  • Your withdrawal rate is relatively low, your need to hold cash may be reduced. Those who've 'already won the game.'
  • You have no/limited floor income and your retirement expenses must be met by portfolio withdrawals, if you don't care about being forced to liquidate other holdings (equities, bonds, etc.) at a bottom.
  • Your tolerance for risk/volatility is high and your investing acumen is solid (you sleep well at night).
  • Combinations of all or part above.
I'm sure someone will come along and provide a more coherent reply.

As with most questions $ here, there are often no universal answers.
I think you are right that some posters have good reasons to hold a lot of cash. I just think that some are doing themselves a disservice by doing this. They are lowering their long term portfolio return.

However, I really like to optimize things and have to remember not everyone is like that. And actually this just gives some money to the banks (or wherever that excess cash resides) to recycle to stronger investment uses. So it's probably a wash to society in the end. A comforting thought to me.
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Old 01-11-2013, 10:56 AM   #71
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I think you are right that some posters have good reasons to hold a lot of cash. I just think that some are doing themselves a disservice by doing this. They are lowering their long term portfolio return.
I doubt there are many members here who don't fully understand the impact on their overall return, a negative real return after inflation. Most if not all are making a conscious choice for their own reasons I'd guess...
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Old 01-11-2013, 10:57 AM   #72
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The yellow portion of the chart you mention might be a combo for ST bonds and ST CD's and even money market accounts.
Precisely, and right now, I don't see any such combos that pay significantly higher than 0.95% to justify tying the money up for the amount of time required to get that return rate and possibly be unable to take advantage of better rates that come out in the intervening period. But I'm very interesting in learning about such combos, if there are some.

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Or the ST bonds might be in the green part.
The way I understand it, one essential aspect of the yellow part is that return of the principal is guaranteed.

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I'm referring to the long term plan for stashing cash where that "bucket" is continuously filled from some higher risk/return asset.
Fair enough. The way I look at it, about two-thirds of what I currently have in cash should instead be in laddered three- or six-month CDs making at least 2% more than my high-yield checking account. As soon as such CD rates are available, my plan is to start building that ladder.
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Old 01-11-2013, 03:30 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by Lsbcal View Post
I keep reading these posts and do not understand why posters:
1) hold a lot of cash beyond a few month's needs
2) do not care what their cash rate of return is

When (1) is combined with (2) it's a good way to lower your overall portfolio return. Over the decades cash has not been a great investment although there have been times (not now) when you could get a real return on it.
well, I have some of my short-term 1-3 years in cash, because I SPEND it. If I'm spending it anyway, I don't care about the return.

Once I pull money out of my retirement portfolio, I don't care about the long-term return.

My retirement portfolio is not optimized for long-term return either - otherwise I would be 100% equities. Instead, I balance short-term volatility potential with long-term return potential.

And guess what - 5% of my long-term retirement fund is in cash (including Ibonds) too. Why? Because when the market tanks, I use that cash to rebalance my portfolio and buy distressed assets. I don't consider it to be a "drag" when that happens!
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Old 01-11-2013, 03:52 PM   #74
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I've probably overlooked IBonds too long. But it's because of the $10K/yr limit on purchasing them. That means it would take 5-10 years laddering IBonds to have 1-2 years worth of income in IBonds unless I'm missing something (wouldn't be the first time). Doesn't make it a bad approach at all, just a strategy that takes many years to implement (vs CDs where you could build any ladder at least durations you want instantly). Do I wish I would have thought about it 5 years ago, maybe...though MMFs provided decent (even stellar late 70's & 80's) returns for my entire investing life until 2009 or so.
Apologies for not remembering if you are married or not, but if you are then that would be $20k/year you could be putting away. I've been buying them from time to time since 2003. Looking at all the bonds we have that are at least 5 years old, the IRR ranges from 3.75% - 4.04%.

These days the money that we spend year to year from dividends goes into a bank savings account paying 0.8%, and if dividends are not enough then we'll start the draw down of IBonds.
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Old 01-11-2013, 04:07 PM   #75
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It could have been $30K limit when I bought too. Can't remember, but now as I just looked that them, the largest chunks were $20K.

Another wrong thing I did was not to buy in smaller chunks like $5K for better granularity. That way, I would only redeem as much as I need. Oh well, it might not matter if they are "buy, never sell" assets.
You can redeem I-Bonds in small lumps, you don't have to redeem the whole bond. When I've redeemed bonds on-line, after selecting the bond I am asked to enter an amount.

IBonds.info - Redeeming an I bond


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Instead of redeeming an entire I bond, it is possible to partially redeem the value of a bond. Paper I bonds can be redeemed in intervals of $25 and the remaining balance will be reissued in the remaining amount, but with the same issue date as the original bond. Electronic I bonds can be redeemed in part by using the TreasuryDirect site and going through the redemption process described below. There is a minimum redemption value of $25 and there must be at least $25 left for the remainder of the bond.
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Old 01-11-2013, 04:46 PM   #76
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I think you are right that some posters have good reasons to hold a lot of cash. I just think that some are doing themselves a disservice by doing this. They are lowering their long term portfolio return.

However, I really like to optimize things and have to remember not everyone is like that. And actually this just gives some money to the banks (or wherever that excess cash resides) to recycle to stronger investment uses. So it's probably a wash to society in the end. A comforting thought to me.
I like to optimize, too. I have some portfolio cash on hand (7% or so) simply because I am waiting on opportunities to put it to work.

I also keep an emergency fund equal to a year and a half of expenses. However, to minimize long term performance drag I have the bulk of my e fund in I bonds and CDs, with a relatively small amount in a savings account. I view the e fund as part of my fixed income allocation. Why do I keep this much in safe stuff? After getting my ass handed to me in the crash, I have developed a healthy interest in cutting off extreme tail events. So I keep a bigger than average e fund, have worked down concentrations in my portfolio, keep much closer track of allocations, and have done other things (healthy supply of emergency food and water on hand, have plenty of shotshells, thinking seriously about buying a generator, etc.). I still live my normal suburban salaryman life, but all of this stuff gives me comfort that things are mitigated somewhat even in very nasty downside scenarios. The world can be an uncertain place and we are largely on our own to deal with it.
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Old 01-11-2013, 04:48 PM   #77
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And guess what - 5% of my long-term retirement fund is in cash (including Ibonds) too. Why? Because when the market tanks, I use that cash to rebalance my portfolio and buy distressed assets. I don't consider it to be a "drag" when that happens!
I have always held a lot of cash, from 25% up to 50% or more, but I will have to dig out my records. The idea was that when the market tanked, I would go "all in".

Yeah right! I did buy, but not nearly as much as I should or could. I held quite a bit back, thinking that if all equities went to 0 (of course they wouldn't, but it surely felt like it as many stocks lost 80-90%!), the remaining cash is the minimum I would need to live out the rest of my life in tolerable misery. So, I bought, but was far from being "all in".

It ain't that easy when you were crouching in the fox hole. How everybody felt was all recorded in the threads in this forum. And it was not that long ago either. Interesting time!

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You can redeem I-Bonds in small lumps, you don't have to redeem the whole bond. When I've redeemed bonds on-line, after selecting the bond I am asked to enter an amount.
Thanks for the info. I redeemed a chunk once some time in 2007, but somehow missed that option, and took the whole amount. Or could it be that it was a later added option?
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Old 01-11-2013, 05:13 PM   #78
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well, I have some of my short-term 1-3 years in cash, because I SPEND it. If I'm spending it anyway, I don't care about the return.

Once I pull money out of my retirement portfolio, I don't care about the long-term return.

My retirement portfolio is not optimized for long-term return either - otherwise I would be 100% equities. Instead, I balance short-term volatility potential with long-term return potential.

And guess what - 5% of my long-term retirement fund is in cash (including Ibonds) too. Why? Because when the market tanks, I use that cash to rebalance my portfolio and buy distressed assets. I don't consider it to be a "drag" when that happens!
I admit my post was a little provacative. No offense intended.

I like your comment about not being optimized for just LT returns because we have to remember bad things can happen to equities (like 2008). I'd add that many of us here being retired have to deal with withdrawals and portfolio redesign as we age. Actually I am balanced too and have a somewhat radical approach to dealing with market declines.

A while ago I decided that my best bet was to take the max equity allocation and stuff the rest in bonds i.e. no $'s laying around waiting for some opportunity which I'm personally not that great at predicting.

Our cash position is <2% of the portfolio. The OP was about the best place to keep cash. I'd contend that the first step is to minimize cash, but that is not everyone's cup of tea.

Looking at those graphs of past periods of cash returns (3 month Treasuries) we can see there have been historical periods of poor returns. The other take away from those graphs is that over long term periods one could get decent real returns. Also one would be protected from inflation as cash will not suffer a rate hike hit like bonds would.
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Old 01-11-2013, 08:59 PM   #79
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NW-Bound, you are right about the fees charged by BOA. I use their on-line bill pay and if I was to just setup Ally as an account and pay a "bill" to them and not call it a fund transfer, there is no fee just as any other bill pay. If you ask money to be transfered, they will charge you a fee.
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Old 01-11-2013, 09:46 PM   #80
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We somehow stumbled on the right way to do this, and did not have to pay any fees. As I handle all investments, I always set up the transfer link from the brokerage sides. And my wife set up the periodic account payments somehow, like you described.

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Now to be fair, I'm just starting to learn about I Bonds, which might be the right answer. While they're bonds, there is some reason to claim that they could qualify under that "short-term" category.
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I've probably overlooked IBonds too long...

Do I wish I would have thought about it 5 years ago, maybe...though MMFs provided decent (even stellar late 70's & 80's) returns for my entire investing life until 2009 or so.
In a nutshell, I bonds guarantee a fixed real return above the inflation rate. That fixed real return was as high as 3.6% in 2000, when the Treasury apparently could not attract enough investors who were chasing dot-com stocks. It was slowly lowered to zero where it is now, when people have no place to turn to even match inflation.

Because the I-bond was such a good deal, they have always limited what an investor could buy, and the demand for I-bond in recent years also caused the Treasury to lower the annual limit to a measly $5k/yr at one point.

I knew about that 3.6% real return offer in 2000, but did not appreciate that it was one heck of a deal. When I started to accumulate it, the guaranteed fixed rate was never more than 1.4%. Still, I have been getting nominal return of 3 to 4+% in the last few years, and that's still a lot better than anything else out there.

As other I-bond owners concurred with me, it is so hard to part with them now, as we cannot buy anything like it. I have almost 2.5X annual expense in it, and may keep it as a doomsday component of portfolio, meaning fund of last resort, because if inflation shoots up, my I-bond is guaranteed to beat it by 1.4%.
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